Southwest KLGA gear collapse.
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but in this LGA situation...the captain made a good landing...not a great one, but good as people walked away...a great landing is one in which you can use the plane again without major mx.
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Yes, it *is* possible. As I mentioned earlier, certainly the Captain thought so. But ... From what we know, the airplane was approximately on speed, and it was configured and had been since around the FAF. But the approach may have been going long, prompting her to take over. But from that point she has 400 ft and 1-1/4 NM to fix whatever sins the FO committed. She stuffed the nose down at less than 32 feet and less than 4 seconds from impact. It's pretty hard to blame that on what the FO did sometime earlier.
As far as the She got fired-he got retrained bit, you seem to by trying to build a case that she's being unfairly treated because she's a woman. Horsecrap.
She was the captain.
She was the handling pilot.
She alone stuffed the nose down into the ground.
I think at most airlines, if you crash an airplane and all those conditions are present, and there's nothing in the way of mitigating factors, you're gonna get your last paycheck handed to you, doesn't matter how many X chromosomes you have.
AS far as the FO getting retrained instead of fireds, lets review:
The FO's sins were at worst:
Flying an approach that while configured and approximately on speed, *may* have been high/long.
Failing to react in time to the Captain's last minute abrupt pitch down at very low altitude to prevent hitting nosewheel first.
The Captains sins were :
Crashing a perfectly good airplane in fairly benign conditions solely as a result of her airplane handling.
Now, if you can't see that the is a vast difference between the Captain and PF crashing an airplane and the FO and PM failing to prevent the crash, and that the former is almost certainly a firing offense, and the latter may not be, it's because you don't want to see it.
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Everything we have heard here says that the F/o called for a missed approach and the captain said "No" and continued to try and salvage a bad approach. It did not work out.
If she gets fired it's because there were many issues leading up to this point. Straw - camel's back - you get the drift?
If she gets fired it's because there were many issues leading up to this point. Straw - camel's back - you get the drift?
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misd again...the joke is a good landing is one you can walk away from...a great landing is one you can walk away from AND use the plane right away without major maintenance.
so at best, this was a good landing.
and of course it wasn't very good in a normal sense
so at best, this was a good landing.
and of course it wasn't very good in a normal sense
speedbird...hubris...interesting choice of words...but pal, listen...I didn't break the nosewheel off a 737 and close NY's airport.
Neither did I ( nor will I now if course, so I think in that respect I can say never ! ) but I made some landings that were all great by your definition, but which I would have described in different words, even the final 747 landing of my airline career was not my finest, many reasons, one being a strong and gusting crosswind, I know I could have done a better job, and regretfully never got the chance to prove it.
Recently a landing in a Cessna 182 surprised me, but of course I do get chance now to have another go, maybe tomorrow !
Off thread, but regarding taking over at low level ( SLF sign off now ! ) - newly promoted I was forbidden to let co-pilots fly the take-off and landings initially, but I flew a long, 14 day, multi-sector trip with two experienced co-pilots that I had known for some time, so occasionally offered to let them take over after take off and fly to around 1,000 ft. on approach, then I took over and completed the landings.
Surprisingly I found that these two guys were not performing too well at all, their route flying and procedures were OK but their approaches left a lot to be desired, which surprised me, but being a new Captain, and not having watched too many other co-pilots complete the landings, I lived with it, until ........ coming up behind them in the hotel bar at the last stop before completing the trip, I overheard them and suddenly realised - you bar stewards, I said, you've been setting me up ! They laughed and admitted that they'd had a bet to see who could leave me in the worst possible situation to take over from them !
They reckoned I'd passed ! Happy Days.
We will probably never know what really happened because it was a she, not a he.
Flying for an Asian airline towards the end of my career, I carried a US pilot and his female pilot friend to a job interview - she claimed that she was going to be that airlines first female pilot. I advised the young lady that the airlines' first female pilot would not be her, but if - ever - then it would be a niece of the President and a Major in the country's Air Force.
I met them again a few days later, and they admitted that the male had been offered a job, but not the female, tho' they had similar experience. She said that she could sue them, as they had advertised in the USA as an equal opportunity employer - but then I'd fail my first simulator check, wouldn't I, she said ? Sadly a realist.
I never had the pleasure of flying with female flight crew, technically I don't think I would have had a problem, but doesn't it inhibit the camaraderie of the flight deck on some of those long night sectors ? I know some of the conversations we had would make us liable for charges of sexual harrasment now ! but then we were usually a 4 man crew, so it was more like a Gentlemans ( ?!! ) Club I guess, one on one in todays aeroplanes must be different anyway.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 5th Oct 2013 at 07:56.
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A2
Your comments support my attitude to this.
Bubbers, you're my hero, if only all CAs were as capable as you.
If the FO was capable and properly trained why the need for a takeover, why is no one looking at the operator/training dept for this. Surely the QAR data would show whether or not the approach was stable and justified intervention and if so at what stage.
Tell me, any CA here during their initial command training or subsequent upgrades receive ANY training/discussion in the sim on taking over from an FO, anyone here have any guide on this in their manuals? From my experience NO, yet some here expect a picture perfect result from it.
Bubbers intervening @ 50' in good conditions should go okay, doing it poor conditions such as reduced viz, strong gusty conditions, strong/gusty x/winds has the potential to end badly . The FO should be trained and competent to the required standard (to FO app limits, if any) or not there, yet this doesn't seem to get a mention. SWA seem to be getting a free pass on this.
And this needs to be said, strong women are generally denigrated whereas strong men are viewed as displaying leadership qualities.
Edit: By the way, I had to make some input a few nights ago at around 15-20' as I "felt" the FO was not going to flare enough, if that had happened on really demanding conditions what could the result have been?
Your comments support my attitude to this.
Bubbers, you're my hero, if only all CAs were as capable as you.
If the FO was capable and properly trained why the need for a takeover, why is no one looking at the operator/training dept for this. Surely the QAR data would show whether or not the approach was stable and justified intervention and if so at what stage.
Tell me, any CA here during their initial command training or subsequent upgrades receive ANY training/discussion in the sim on taking over from an FO, anyone here have any guide on this in their manuals? From my experience NO, yet some here expect a picture perfect result from it.
Bubbers intervening @ 50' in good conditions should go okay, doing it poor conditions such as reduced viz, strong gusty conditions, strong/gusty x/winds has the potential to end badly . The FO should be trained and competent to the required standard (to FO app limits, if any) or not there, yet this doesn't seem to get a mention. SWA seem to be getting a free pass on this.
And this needs to be said, strong women are generally denigrated whereas strong men are viewed as displaying leadership qualities.
Edit: By the way, I had to make some input a few nights ago at around 15-20' as I "felt" the FO was not going to flare enough, if that had happened on really demanding conditions what could the result have been?
Last edited by ANCPER; 5th Oct 2013 at 07:54.
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So on your thinking Sioux City was the fault of the CA, was it, and you mean there's no room for circumstances? Is that correct? An A/C crashes and regardless it's the CAs fault?
A % of posters seemed to question the competence of the CA with little questioning of the FO. It's a 2 man crew job but a number of pilots, usually CAs, think it's a 1 man job assisted by a moron in the RHS.
A % of posters seemed to question the competence of the CA with little questioning of the FO. It's a 2 man crew job but a number of pilots, usually CAs, think it's a 1 man job assisted by a moron in the RHS.
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Are you seriously unable to distinguish between having massive multiple systems failures and crashing, and crashing a perfectly good airplane in unremarkable conditions?
ExSp33db1rd:
I am astonished that you never got to share your flight deck with the fairer sex. I flew with lots of them and the vast majority of them were bloody good operators.
As to stifling the conversation on the flight deck, one of our young ladies told jokes that would make your hair curl. Sadly, she left us to join BA.
You don't know what you've missed.
I am astonished that you never got to share your flight deck with the fairer sex. I flew with lots of them and the vast majority of them were bloody good operators.
As to stifling the conversation on the flight deck, one of our young ladies told jokes that would make your hair curl. Sadly, she left us to join BA.
You don't know what you've missed.
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Just typical of you and obviously you cannot read english either! Your statement to that effect has has left no room for any other interpretation, that's what I was asking you? It's you who has insinuated that.
HT, oh gee, you've really upset me, DH!
HT, oh gee, you've really upset me, DH!
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Ummm, yeah. You'd have to pretty stupid to believe that my comment that crashing an airplane was sub-par performance included catastrophic failures and couldn't be interpreted any other way.
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ANCPER, DH = d***head. Inappropriate language for this forum, not to mention your sense of humour failure! Over to the moderators.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 5th Oct 2013 at 12:41.
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Originally Posted by Me
if you crash an airplane and all those conditions are present, and there's nothing in the way of mitigating factors,
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Originally Posted by JW411
I am astonished that you never got to share your flight deck with the fairer sex. I flew with lots of them and the vast majority of them were bloody good operators.