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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 22nd Apr 2013, 11:48
  #621 (permalink)  

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Smiling Monkey.. I think you may need to re-set your sarcasm detector..
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 12:21
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On AA's 738s when you hit TOGA, the A/P disconnects (if it were previously engaged.) All GAs are hand-flown initially... but we can re-engage the A/P above 500'. Not sure if this is the case for all 738s... could this have been a factor in the Lion Air?
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 13:16
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AA73

I think you will find that is all 737's do that (stand to be corrected). I think quite a lot of people forget that the AP kicks out in a single channel go around, hence why it's a complete mess when it isn't practiced.

Word in the Lion crew room is that windshear is the cause.
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 13:25
  #624 (permalink)  
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Thread diversion warning!! Second warning - of no relevance to the accident as far as I know.

OK - I have never flown IAN. Can you fly the 09 procedure as an IAN dual channel?.
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 13:53
  #625 (permalink)  

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Click click, click click.

Old King Coal

Thank you for posting Children of the Magenta. Been away and catching up I was working my way through the thread thinking it was time to do so when turns page and there it is. A classic and should be compulsory watching for the "modern driver" fly the aircraft first.

Fascinating thread this with the multiplicity of comment some hilarious.

Maybe I'm way past it but what ever happened to the old low evel wind shear SURVIVAL technique, stick back into the shaker hold and max thrust. Provides the max performance available in what is a potentially life threatening situation.

Click click, click click.
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 13:58
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Firewalling is only needed if height is so ctitical that ground contact imminent such as GPWS pull up warning.
Finally,someone with sense....
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 14:37
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However, just for perspective, on a dual channel ILS or GLS, with TOGA to LNAV, the A/P will remain engaged for the missed. I would assume AA's 738's have this capability.
Actually, none of AA's 738s have the dual channel certification... single channel only for all operations. That is why a CAT 3 is hand flown using the HUD. So our A/Ps still kick off in TOGA even on a coupled CAT 1 ILS.
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 16:12
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Actually, none of AA's 738s have the dual channel certification...
Did not know that.

From experience as a pax, you guys land so smoothly, I always thought it was autoland.
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 21:32
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You obviously weren't on any of my flights when I flew it back in 2010!

AA chose to not go with dual-channel/autoland to save $$$ (shocker!) They figured, hey they already have a HUD for CAT 3, why pay to certify the dual-channel/autoland.

Rumors are that they may go with it eventually.

OK back to thread topic.

Last edited by aa73; 22nd Apr 2013 at 21:33.
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 22:17
  #630 (permalink)  
 
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I might be being a bit pedantic but just a reminder that on the -800 if you firewall it the EEC's don't give you any EGT protection.
Whoever is talking about fire walling the thrust levers for a normal go around on a classic must surely be a PC Simulator pilot.
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 02:27
  #631 (permalink)  
 
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I might be being a bit pedantic but just a reminder that on the -800 if you firewall it the EEC's don't give you any EGT protection.
Whoever is talking about fire walling the thrust levers for a normal go around on a classic must surely be a PC Simulator pilot.
I wasn't aware that most engines don't even provide EGT protection even if you don't firewall it.

EGT is not a failure condition (if the engine is still running) unless you let it go long enough.

I'd be more worried about running into a surge/stall line and ending up with zero thrust. Thats a point failure rather than a wearout condition over minutes due to excessive EGT.

Not to worry on the new machines that limit what you can command and at least guarantee that your engines will stay with you until you land.
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 06:37
  #632 (permalink)  
 
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aa73:
On AA's 738s when you hit TOGA, the A/P disconnects (if it were previously engaged.) All GAs are hand-flown initially... but we can re-engage the A/P above 500'. Not sure if this is the case for all 738s.
Yes, that is the case on all B737's (Classic's & NG's) but there's a bit more to it than that… and there's a gotcha in what you suggest about re-engaging the autopilot.

Fwiw, here's how I teach and brief a two-engine go-around in a B737.

Nb. I'm a lot less interested in the lateral part of a go-around, than I am in the vertical part of the go-around, i.e. the main point of a go-around being to go back up into the air... much on the basis that nobody has ever collided with the air !

With a single autopilot engaged (i.e. 'single channel'), if you press the go-around button, the autopilot will disconnect. It is then up to you to push up the thrust levers and manage the pitch-up of the nose.

Nb. Some on here might be using the 'Speed Off' method during the approach phase which, I seem to recall, allows the auto throttle to remain engaged during the go-around, though you shouldn't rely on it to work, i.e. always advance the thrust levers yourself!

When the TOGA button is pressed, the MCP speed window will blank and it will remain blanked until you either press something (to do with power or pitch, or select an autopilot) on the MCP or that you get 'Altitude Acquire' (which ever happens first), at which point the MCP speed window will then open up at the speed that you are doing at that precise moment (which is not necessarily the speed that you were previously accelerating towards, i.e. prior to the speed window opening).

Here's a handy little reminder for managing the vital actions of a go-around: "Say. Do. See."
1) Say = "Go Around, Flap 15"
2) Do = Click TOGA button; Advance the thrust levers; Raise the nose!
3) See = TOGA on your FMA and also G/A on the thrust mode annunciation.
Nb. If you do not see 3) then you didn't press the TOGA button, doh!… and then the following will happen:
  • If you remembered to advance the thrust levers, the aircraft is probably now pitching-up / climbing.
  • The flight directors are still providing guidance for the last selected approach mode (i.e. probably commanding a descent).
  • The flap lever position based acceleration function will not work as advertised for a B737 doing a two-engine go-around.
Therein, "Say. Do. See." will at least get you going up, and in TOGA mode, and hopefully also get you into the mindset for the go-around.

@400 ft AGL - choose an appropriate roll mode (LNAV or HDG).

When at or above your airlines nominated Acceleration Altitude, AND so long as your aircraft is at or faster than Vref +15kts (i.e. at or above the white bug on your speed tape), ask for "Flap 5"… and then keep on raising the flaps in accordance with the increasing airspeed and note that, as you raise the flaps, the ASI bug will keep advancing to the speed for the next flap position.

If there's a long way to climb to your missed approach altitude then it's likely that you'll have flaps-up by the point when you get 'Altitude Acquire', whereupon the MCP speed window will open up at the speed that you are at, which (if you've been following your flight director) will be the flaps-up speed.

Alternatively, once the flaps are up (and prior to getting 'Altitude Acquire'), you can select any MCP power or pitch mode that you desire (e.g. LVL CHG, VNAV, V/S,... or an autopilot) without it screwing-up your TOGA mode thrust & acceleration.

If however, when you get 'Altitude Acquire', you are still at some intermediate flap setting, then the MCP speed window will open up (at the speed that you are at) and it's then up to you to drive MCP speed bug.

Also, if prior to getting your flaps fully up, you decide the press something on the MCP to do with either power or pitch (or select an autopilot), you will then cause the TOGA mode to cancel. The MCP speed window will open up (at the speed that you are at) and it's then up to you to drive MCP speed bug.

In my experience, the typical things that people select on the MCP during a go-around are any combination of autopilot & auto-throttle but, by doing so, they then take the aircraft out of TOGA mode and which, aside from screwing-up the flap lever position based acceleration (which Boeing have kindly provided), it also commands your thrust into another mode (of a thrust reduction; which might be ok, just so long as obstacles in the missed approach path are not an issue?!).

737-Classic's: the TOGA mode is available any time the aircraft registers that it is at or below 2,000 ft radio altitude.
737-NG's: the TOGA mode is available any time the flaps are not up (regardless of altitude) and / or (if flaps are up) any time the aircraft registers that it is at or below 2,000 ft radio altitude, or with the GlideSlope captured.

Simples!

Last edited by Old King Coal; 23rd Apr 2013 at 14:30. Reason: added clarity
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 07:06
  #633 (permalink)  
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I know you know, OKC, but for the avoidance of doubt amongst those who may not (and it seems there may be some)

2) Do = Click TOGA button and advance the thrust levers and raise the *** nose
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 07:18
  #634 (permalink)  
 
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lol... yeah (MP ) I know... but I'd 'assume' (always a dangerous thing in aviation!) that with the power-pitch couple of the B737 underslung engines that the application of huge wadge of power in a two-engine GoAround would, in itself, cause the nose to pitch up... and therein take fairly heroic amount of forward pressure (or forward trim) to overcome it... but I do take your point, and so should others (hence edit now made above) !
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 07:24
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Are those photos of the weather on the day of the accident?
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 07:43
  #636 (permalink)  
 
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"Going Around, Flap XX, Check Go Around Thrust".

PM is told what you're doing, PM is told what to select, PM is told what to check (on FMA and whatever else you may have in your particular machine).

Simples...

Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 23rd Apr 2013 at 10:31. Reason: Spell-checker failure again!
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 09:41
  #637 (permalink)  
 
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Pictures of Weather and Windshear

Just to repeat my 2 cents as on the spot on the day of the accident (Now in Tokyo):
  1. No, I don't believe those pictures were taken on the day of the accident. Poster please respond.
  2. No, I still do NOT believe that Windshear/Microburst conditions existed at the time of the accident, BUT I recognise that I might be wrong. Hence my reluctance to jump to conclusions, even though pointing to potential issues. Let's wait and see.
  3. If "Smiling monkey" is correct, in "The Jungle" all of this stuff is openly discussed and there is no confidentiality, so it should, presumably, be the case that the CVR and DVDR readings will be available here shortly?

Last edited by philipat; 23rd Apr 2013 at 09:46.
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 10:10
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Originally Posted by philipat
Just to repeat my 2 cents as on the spot on the day of the accident (Now in Tokyo):

[*]No, I don't believe those pictures were taken on the day of the accident. Poster please respond.
Those photos are not taken at WADD, philipat. Looks definitely like Bandung. What relevance of those photos are to this accident, is anybody's guess.

Originally Posted by philipat
[*]If "Smiling monkey" is correct, in "The Jungle" all of this stuff is openly discussed and there is no confidentiality, so it should, presumably, be the case that the CVR and DVDR readings will be available here shortly?
How long is a piece of string? The full transcript of the Sukhoi SJ100 CFIT near Bogor has never been released, not even in the final report. The same goes for the other fatality that occurred in May 2011. I doubt the full CVR transcript for JT 904 will be published either. There may be excerpts here and there, but I doubt very much there will be a full official transcript. As for gossip of what's on the CVR and whether it will appear out in the open, well, that's anybody's guess.

Last edited by smiling monkey; 23rd Apr 2013 at 10:17. Reason: re editing the quote tag
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 12:30
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Thumbs up Old King Coal.. thanks!

OKC, great summary! Closely mirrors the way were taught back when I was on the fleet.
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Old 23rd Apr 2013, 15:08
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Lederhosen posted:
The two engined go-around is considered so simple it is rarely trained. On the line it happens very rarely and when it does it is quite unlike the sim where you are expecting it.
How rare is it?

I've experienced one sub-100' emergency go-around, due to wake-turbulence, in I suppose about 1000 flights as a passenger. Ironically, there was another more gentle one, at ATC request, on my very next sector.

Last edited by India Four Two; 23rd Apr 2013 at 15:27.
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