Lionair plane down in Bali.

[repariit]

So shall we all switch to the
Professional Pilots F i n a l R e p o r t N e t w o r k
now?

[philipat]

Reapairit/Sleepless in Seattle

What if there really was Windshear and/or a FADEC problem and/or a structural or other problem? We simply don't know at this stage. I do believe that the earlier speculation on this thread has probably nailed it, but can't we still maintain some decorum and respect? Or in normal street terms, benefit of the doubt or the presumption of innocence?

As for: Professional Pilots F i n a l R e p o r t N e t w o r k

Is that PPFart.Net? I can't seem to get that URL to work?

[Mikehotel152]

the PF called for flap 15 but forgot the related call for GA thrust

Apologies for not being clearer. B737900er followed my train of thought. I was inferring that a tentative, low hour FO might not push the levers fully forward. Perhaps nobody checked?

if it were in the USA,we d be missing 5 degrees of pitch up attitude

[Fester Karbunkle]

Originally Posted by philipat

Actually, I do believe that the accident has already been very well explained herein, should you have read all 612 posts.

-And what background and experience are you basing that belief on?

[arba]

I doubt Lion had an SOP where the PF called for thrust, it would be unique in my experience

"GO-AROUND" , "FLAPS FIFTEEN" , "SET GO-AROUND THRUST", new Boeing Procedures. (FCTM Rev.11, last year)

[Centaurus]

You might not necessarily have go around thrust, you could be 5% short- especially if you didn't configure your seat correctly.

True. Depends how you define it. From the FCOM: At first push of TOGA in dual AP operation, thrust advances towards the reduced go-around N1 to produce 1000 to 2000fpm rate of climb. With the second push of TOGA switch after the AT reaches reduced GA thrust, the AT advances to the full GA limit.

In the case of Bali where presumably the thrust levers were being manually controlled, it may be that whoever pushed the throttles did not get them all the way to full GA limit. Not that mattered provided the throttles were set at least to the 1000 to 2000 fpm setting.

Note also in the FCTM under standard phraseology, the partial list of recommended words and phrases includes underthe sub-heading of Thrust:

"SET GO-AROUND THRUST"

(FCTM capitals)

[smiling monkey]

Originally Posted by philipat

Actually, I do believe that the accident has already been very well explained herein, should you have read all 612 posts.

If not, either what are your ideas or goodnight.

Whoa, so no need to wait for the accident report then; philipat has worked it all out. PPRUNE arm chair experts does it again!!

[Fair.Pilot]

"SET GO-AROUND THRUST"? Why need this phrase?
When u shout "GO AROUND" the follow-up action is to push the throttle to fire wall. Is the throttle in NG different from classic 737?

When the throttle is pushed to fire wall, MAX THRUST should be available.
If not, Boeing must redesign the THRUST/THROTTLE system.

1st time TOGA push button, 2nd time TOGA.... pure bullsh*t in EMERGENCY/Go Around

[framer]

I think we may be all correct but with different information in our respective FCTM's.
eg this is from my 2012 version

Standard Phraseology A partial list of recommended words and phrases follows: Thrust: • “TAKEOFF THRUST” • “GO-AROUND” • “MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS THRUST” • “CLIMB THRUST” • “CRUISE THRUST”

Also from my 2012 version;

push either TO/GA switch, call for flaps 15, ensure/set go-around thrust, and rotate smoothly toward 15° pitch attitude.

So it seems to me that although the call to " set go- around thrust " and the target initial pitch attitude are points of discussion, this may just be due to company specific amendments to the FCTM that each of us has been issued with.

Is it possible that some operators have such little faith in their pilots basic flying ability that they recommend delegating the setting of go-around thrust to the PM? It would be news to me but considering the rumour that the Lion Air Firts Officers are not allowed to be PF below 5000ft it wouldn't surprise me.
Thoughts?
Ps the idea of pushing the thrust levers to the fire- wall for a standard go-around seems ridiculous to me. I think it would result in messy level offs and even altitude busts if the MAP level off is at 2000ft as is the case at some airports.

[lederhosen]

There is the usual chest beating going on. The sad fact is that two engine go-arounds are one of the worst flown manouevres in 737 flying. There are several reasons. I will list some, but almost certainly not all, and in no particular order.

The two engined go-around is considered so simple it is rarely trained. On the line it happens very rarely and when it does it is quite unlike the sim where you are expecting it.

Firewalling the throttles is normally not necessary. The 737 is so overpowered that the main problem is not busting the level off as Framer has pointed out.

However not pressing TOGA, failing to set go-around thrust and not following the standard missed approach are all possible traps.

As our employers seek to downgrade the job of pilot to what is beginning to look like amusement park attendant in the left hand seat and hapless punter in the right I can only see this getting worse.

[BOAC]

amusement park attendant in the left hand seat and hapless punter in the right

- I like that very much.

Perhaps a note of caution, however - are we all agreed that IF a g/a is called due to significant windshear (one 'theory' in Bali), a 'straight arm' throttle technique is advisable regardless of level-off altitude?

[lederhosen]

Definitely.

[Lookleft]

On the classic if you firewalled the thrust levers you would overboost the engines so it was only ever considered an emergency manouvre. Is this still the case or have Boeing finally put a FADEC in?

[fireflybob]

Lookleft - you can firewall the thrust levers with no issue - merely a tech log entry for the engineers.

Windshear escape manoeuvre calls for this

In a normal GA with my last Company on this type PF would call "GA Flap 15 Set Go Around Thrust" whilst simultaneously advancing thrust levers and rotating to 15 deg NU

The call "set GA thrust" was to remind/ prompt PNF to back up and set thrust as appropriate.

Obviously you call need to retract the gear

[FlyingStone]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

On the classic if you firewalled the thrust levers you would overboost the engines so it was only ever considered an emergency manouvre. Is this still the case or have Boeing finally put a FADEC in?

Do you really think it's better to have FADEC-limited maximum (rated) thrust during EGPWS/windshear escape manuever or it would be better to have more than rated thrust ("overboost") available just in case?

Or let me rephrase the question - what is cheaper: 2 brand new engines or airframe with 200 pax on board?

[ExSp33db1rd]

Sounds like we're in danger of actually getting to the reality of that old joke ... The next generation of aircraft will be crewed by a Captain and a dog.
The Captain's there to feed the dog, and the dog's there to see that the Captain doesn't touch anything.

[philipat]

@Smiling Monkey

"Whoa, so no need to wait for the accident report then; philipat has worked it all out. PPRuNe arm chair experts does it again!!"

Isn't it wonderful how, in "The Jungle" things can be taken out of context and used to make a point ENTIRELY opposite to the main thrust of the total intent demonstrated by all my posts on this thread?

If you bother to review the record, at no time in this thread did I EVER make any speculation of my own as to the reasons for this accident, in fact quite the reverse, but I did suggest my agreement with the remarks of others that I respect on this Board. Whilst also agreeing that we need to wait for actual data before jumping to conclusions. I would be happy to send you a transcript of all my posts in this thread.


With respect. And this is my last comment to you.

[A37575]

On the classic if you firewalled the thrust levers you would overboost the engines so it was only ever considered an emergency manouvre

Happened in a 737-400 I knew about. Reached ILS minima. Captain literally over-reacted and shoved the throttles to the stops when not needed. F/O too startled to notice. Red EGT lights came on both engines indicating over-temp. Neither pilots noticed the red lights. Too busy making missed approach which required a early turn to track out on VOR. Firewalling is only needed if height is so ctitical that ground contact imminent such as GPWS pull up warning.

[B737900er]

Pressing the TOGA button will initially give you 1000-2000ft FPM that's if the AT is engaged, if not, the thrust levers will stay where they are that's why Boeing added the "ensure go around thrust is set or set go around thrust".


Lion follow the latest Boeing procedures.

I personally think its a good call to have, having to perform a go around in my last LPC using manual thrust, I pushed the levers forward but was 3% short of the initial N1 target, I asked the PNF to set go around thrust which he done.

The TRE had nothing to say regarding it as it was a well flown go around without automatics.

As someone else has already mentioned, a normal go around is not trained as it is a rare manoeuvre and classed as being simple. Take the automatics out, and well see if its simple then.

[smiling monkey]

@philipat

I have a personal interest in the findings of the investigation as I operate in to WADD on a regular basis. Like with all accident investigations, we need to learn from it in order the minimize the risk of another accident or incident occurring given similar circumstances faced by this crew. But this will only start to happen once the final report has been completed and published. And only then, will the real discussion of what happened to JT 904 begin and be of benefit to those wishing to learn from this unfortunate event.

But please tell me, how have I taken your comment out of context when you say "Actually, I do believe that the accident has already been very well explained herein."

I am not having a go at you, by the way, as I would really like to know more about this accident which you seem to think is already well explained.