Lionair plane down in Bali.

[lear999wa]

The NG has auto-relight protection, I doubt this was caused due to a flame out situation.

[philipat]

Sorry, but AGAIN, I live on the spot in Bali and was here yesterday afternoon at the time of the accident. I live 4 miles to the East of the field and there was some low cloud and a few local rain showers but NO TS activity at the time. The winds were very light from the SE so, of course, conditions to the West of the field on approach MAY have been different, but unlikely in my experience of Bali weather conditions for over 30 years living in Bali because, with weather from the SE, that would have passed through here first. And it didn't.

[BARKINGMAD]

Auto Relight.

According to Mr Boeings book "whenever the EECs detect a flame-out".......

At less than 500' on the approach it's a bit late for the AUTOMATICS to start attempting to relight don'tya think?

[Luke SkyToddler]

In Indonesia, it takes a little time to find the right investigators who will produce the correct crash findings, for the right amount of money. One mustn't rush these things. I won't even mention the Will of Allah!

That right there is the root of the problem ... EVERYTHING is for sale in Indo if the price is right : the job, the licence, the skill test, the maintenance release, even the accident investigator findings. Look at the Silkair suicide fiasco or indeed the recent history of Lionair itself with regard to tail strikes and overruns ... and then look at the Indo CAA response ... corruption is like breathing down there, it's just a way of life. Expect absolutely nothing to change in the face of this latest embarrassment.

[framer]

On the NG you don't need to have the start switches in cont because the ignightors fire up automatically when the flap comes out.
So who is right, third hand Virgin Australia info or phil pat?

[smiling monkey]

Originally Posted by Transition Layer

Someone mentions from one of the planefinder tracks that the Virgin aircraft is circling.

I know for a fact they went around due weather. They were number 2 behind the Lion Air aircraft. This comes direct from a mate in Virgin.

So despite the METAR evidence, there was obviously some sort of weather phenomena affecting the approach path around about the time Lion Air made their approach.

And therein lies the difference between the two airlines (which includes their SOPs and safety culture); one continues the approach, the other goes around.

[ia1166]

Embarrassment? Big words when we don't know anything yet.

Just had look at this thread. From the comments against P2F ( he wasn't solo you know) to the bloke that says flying below the notional 3 degree glide slope on a NPA is a good idea so you can level off early??? ( where the chuffing hell does he come from?) to the blame Indo Authority game.

And the guy banging on about the RAF? Maybe he needs to revisit a certain Tristar incident at Brize a few years back.

Plenty of examples of poor pilots across the pond too.

Nobody here is infallible gents.

Please can you give the guy the benefit of the doubt until we know. It could have been any number of things.

90% of the input here is utter rubbish.

[BARKINGMAD]

Auto-sparks.

Framer, ta for the tip re flap deployment activating the ignitors, can you please refer me to the relevant entry in OM B as I'm unable to locate any connection with flaps beyond EECs setting new idle settings?

[Transition Layer]

Originally Posted by philipat

Sorry, but AGAIN, I live on the spot in Bali and was here yesterday afternoon at the time of the accident. I live 4 miles to the East of the field and there was some low cloud and a few local rain showers but NO TS activity at the time. The winds were very light from the SE so, of course, conditions to the West of the field on approach MAY have been different, but unlikely in my experience of Bali weather conditions for over 30 years living in Bali because, with weather from the SE, that would have passed through here first. And it didn't.

No doubt you're the best person to pass comment on the weather, I was merely passing on some KNOWN info about a go-round due weather (since backed up by another poster).

There is definitely some heavy showers in the background of one photo (looking West). If the weather does move in from the SE as you say, and given the time between the crash and the photo, there's a fair chance those showers were close to the threshold as Lion made their approach.

Am I speculating about the weather? - YES
Am I speculating on the actions of the crew? - NO

[1a sound asleep]

Culture of safety compromise and corruption. How quickly people forget Adam Air Adam Air - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[wooski]

Hi Transition Layer, thanks for the info.
it was only my interruption as a SLF, the flightrack coverage seems poor there until the last final postions near the airport, so i thought they were circling after the lion went for a swim.

[1a sound asleep]

The Jakarta Post, Denpasar | Archipelago | Sun, April 14 2013, 4:44 PM

An official said on Sunday that both the chief pilot and co-pilot of the Lion Air Boeing 737-800 aircraft that crashed on Bali on Saturday afternoon tested negative for narcotic and alcohol use.

The Transportation Ministry’s director general of air transportation, Herry Bakti S.Gumay, said a medical examination had found no evidence that Capt. Mahlup Gozali or co-pilot, Chirag Carla, had any health problem that would have played a role in the accident. The tests found no presence of drugs or alcohol in their bodies.



Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Archipelago | Sat, April 13 2013, 6:03 PM

Lion Air general affairs director Edward Sirait has said that there were no weather problems when a Lion Air Boeing 737-800 aircraft crashed on landing at Ngurah Rai International Airport, Bali, on Saturday afternoon.

He said the weather was quite good when the accident happened.

[Cereal Expert]

Not as usual Pilipat

The winds were very light from the SE so, of course, conditions to the West of the field on approach MAY have been different, but unlikely in my experience of Bali weather conditions for over 30 years living in Bali because, with weather from the SE, that would have passed through here first. And it didn't.

May have been different? You betcha.....My birds eye view from the sands of Kuta Beach told a very different story. The approach area was occupied by an intense cell of heavy rain that had moved through Jimbaran Bay and continued slowly west and out to sea. What was left of it can be seen in the background of the published photos. I do not wish to dispute your expertise, rather I feel your doubt in the existance of any sort of significant weather event further suggests this wasn't just any light sun shower. It was black and it was solid.

[McBruce]

It's a limitation to put the start switches to cont for takeoff/landing. This gives flameout protection when N2 drops below a specific percent. I.e. the ignitors will kick in.

Given we've had a post containing info from the CP and as another poster kindly pointed out, it contains good info that's been ignored. It seems this could've been weather related....

[philipat]

Lion Air general affairs director Edward Sirait has said that there were
no weather problems when a Lion Air Boeing 737-800 aircraft crashed on
landing at Ngurah Rai International Airport, Bali, on Saturday
afternoon.

He said the weather was quite good when the accident
happened.

Thanks. that tends to confirm my earlier reports of the local weather at the time of the accident. Lion would surely reserve weather as a possible excuse unless the met data would confirm otherwise? I have no axe to grind here, I am simply reporting the weather conditions locally at the time of the accident. Of course, Virgin Australia may soon publicly report the reasons for the GA of their flight. Presumably, either weather OR the sight of a rather large and highly visible 73 on the reef at the 09 threashold??

[misd-agin]

If you had the FDR, what is the first thing you would want to know????

Everything. Single items will not tell the whole story.

[CONF iture]

@ IndoLion
Is it kind of official communication by the Airline ?
By Cheif Chimp do you mean Chief Pilot ?

@Capn Bloggs
Thanks for the VOR DME 09 approach plate.
Don't you know if there is a RNAV 09 as well ?

[IFixPlanes]

Ignition and flaps

Automatic ignition is a option (ENGINE START Switche in AUTO):
provides automatic ignition to selected igniters when
• engine is running and,
• flaps are not up below 18000 feet altitude or,
• engine anti-ice is selected to ON.

[llondel]

I know for a fact they went around due weather. They were number 2 behind the Lion Air aircraft. This comes direct from a mate in Virgin.

Surely if the aircraft in front of you crashes, you ought to be going around anyway? Although in this case it didn't, aiming to fly low over a crashed aircraft might give more problems if it burst into flames. You'd be without safety cover too, if they've all headed off to deal with the first one.

[BOAC]

Let's try to summarise?:-

They ran out of fuel/engines flamed out because they didn't use ignition
They did not appear to use reversers or spoilers during the ditching and had the gear down
The weather was fine/thunderstorms/CBs/windshear/rain
They undershot 09/overshot 09 or 27
They didn't fly the ILS properly/messed up the VOR approach/had the wrong altimeter setting
The pilots were idiots/heroes/P2F and useless

All good stuff! Have I missed anything? We should be able to get something out of that lot.