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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 15th Apr 2013, 12:09
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to moolooman

Anything said about this accident without the information provided by the "black boxes" from the aircraft, would IMHO at the very least be speculation and this from anyone wishing to comment on the crash.

Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 15th Apr 2013 at 12:10.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 12:16
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Confidential and off the record? Well what ever we tell you, you will twist and make more exciting to sell the story like all journalists.

What you need to know about LNI well...
They have more money than sense.
Lots of corruption
The reason why they believe theyre blacklisted is because they don't have Airbus (hense the huge order).

It's a man boy airline, the captain is always right. (culture thing)
Biggest P2f operator known to man.

Has a huge influx of Indian students, who are under investigation from Lion air and DGCA due to false hours and/or licenses.

Cant take critism to well and its always somebody else's fault.

The list goes on!

Without disrespecting anyone, but the Far East culture and Aviation doesn't mix to well. Usually due to a break down of CRM or 'don't fix it unless its broken' mentality.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 12:31
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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To add to B737900er's post and strictly staying on the flying side of things (btw, his points are very valid ones)...

It usually takes 3 broken links in a chain for an accident to happen. The following could be contributing factors to the crash...

- Bad weather (thunderstorm, windshear/microburst).

- Mechanical problems (always a possibility).

- Mediocre flying skills with lack of experience.

- Fitness of the crew (hours on duty).

- And finally, bad airmanship (poor decision making and/or bad judgement).

Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 15th Apr 2013 at 12:33.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 12:55
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Weather or no weather,non precision or precision approach,unless both engines failed or any other catastrophic failure,the Captain: up and will/should never be Captain of an airliner again.
Just lucky no pax were injured.

Last edited by de facto; 15th Apr 2013 at 12:55.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 12:59
  #345 (permalink)  
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Just lucky no pax were injured.
- according to the BBC, 45 were?
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 13:07
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Indonesian investigators Monday began retrieving the wreck of a Lion Air plane that crashed at Bali's airport, as accounts emerged of a freak storm that could have caused the accident.

The Boeing 737-800 missed the runway as it came in to land on Saturday, slamming into the sea and splitting in two. Dozens of the 108 people on board were injured, but there were no fatalities.

After the plane hit the water, terrified passengers swam to shore as police came to their aid in rubber dinghies.

Government officials and the airline said at the time of the crash that the weather had been fine.
But on Monday, transport ministry official Herry Bakti said the plane had been traveling through dense cloud at the time of the incident and one passenger told how the aircraft became engulfed in torrential rain.

French businessman Jean Grandy, 49, one of four foreigners on the plane, said that the flight from the city of Bandung in West Java had appeared to be landing smoothly.

"The final approach was fine," he told AFP.

"Then suddenly, a cloud enveloped us. Torrents of water were pouring on us, it was an enormous downpour. It only lasted two, three minutes.

"It was almost as if it was night, even though the sun had been shining just before," said Grandy.

The Frenchman, who owns a shoe factory in Indonesia and lives in Bali, said it was an "extraordinary phenomenon" that could have happened to any plane and that he planned to fly on Lion Air again on Wednesday.

His testimony supported the views of some analysts who said that as the plane was new, a freak weather incident may have caused the crash of the Boeing 737-800 which was delivered to Lion Air only last month.

Tom Ballantyne, chief correspondent of Orient Aviation magazine, said the accident could have been caused by a change in wind direction and speed between different altitudes, or a strong downdraft from storm clouds.

"If that hit the aircraft when it was on final approach, there is the likelihood the pilots would not have had time to recover," he told AFP.

The Indonesian pilot, Mahlup Gozali, who had more than 10,000 flying hours, and the Indian co-pilot, Chiraq Carla, tested negative for drugs and alcohol in preliminary tests, a transport ministry spokesman said.

Divers were on Monday drilling a hole in the tail of the wrecked plane to retrieve the cockpit voice recorder located there, and pulling seats and other small pieces of small debris out of the water to take them ashore.

Salvage teams will be lifting the body of the plane in three parts, said Bali airport general manager Purwanto.

The tail will be lifted using a crane later Monday, and the whole operation should take two to three days to complete, said Purwanto, who like many Indonesians goes by one name.

The low-budget carrier launched 13 years ago with just one plane, Lion Air has struck two of the world's largest aircraft orders in a staggering $46 billion bet on Indonesia's air transport boom.

France announced last month that the airline had agreed to buy 234 medium-haul A320 jets worth $23.8 billion from European aerospace giant Airbus.

Lion Air also astounded the industry with a $22.4 billion agreement for 230 Boeing 737 airliners, inked in 2011.

Saturday's crash has heightened fears the plans are overambitious for an airline that already has a poor reputation, suffered a string of accidents, and is banned from EU and American skies over safety fears.

Lion Air has had problems with pilots in the past. It has been randomly drug testing its crews since several pilots were arrested in recent years for possession and consumption of crystal meth.

Indonesia, which relies heavily on air transport to connect its sprawling archipelago of more than 17,000 islands, has one of Asia's worst aviation safety records. The Bali crash was the nation's fourth accident since the start of 2012.

In May last year, a Sukhoi jet, post-Soviet Russia's first passenger plane, slammed into a volcano on the outskirts of Jakarta during a demonstration flight for prospective buyers, killing all 45 on board.

Agence France-Presse April 15, 2013
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 14:11
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I wonder why the slides didn't deploy?
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 14:36
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I wonder why the slides didn't deploy?
Which slides didn't deploy?
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 14:38
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For what it's worth I have been told by a friend within Indo aviation that the first call a pilot will get after a go around or diversion is from the CEO telling them they are out of a job.

The MD hull loss at Solo is a case in point. Landed but long and went agricultural.

There was a GA DC9 extreme heavy land that bananad the fuselage many years ago in the era when if daddy was a general you could get a seat flying for them that was blamed on microburst/windshear in conditions that just could not support either. Savin face. Douglas dudes came out to inspect the aeroplane for repair and shook heads. It was towed off into the palms around the runway and is most likely still there.

Garuda has excorcised the culture but it still lives in the LCCs. The GA 737 bender at Jogjag was the turning point and they are now world class.

The others however, the Lion, Mandala, Express Air and worst of all Merpati operations are ones I would not even taxi on.

As to what happened one can only assume. To mind comes under glide path and can't get power back on in time, ran out of bang wasser, screwed approach and wasn't willing to lose face and go around or maybe the noise just stopped because of a mech issue.

One can only imagine the dismay of surfers on Airport Lefts (the surf break you see in the background of the pics) when a 738 dropped in on them.

No casualties - good result to a bad bender.

Best all

EWL

Last edited by Eastwest Loco; 16th Apr 2013 at 08:39.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 14:56
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Freak weather? Yeah... right.
Divers cutting into the wreck for the recorders... In 6 inches of water? Yeah... right.
What about the wake turbulence of the fire spitting dragon spotted by witnesses?
Why can't we name the elephant in the room? Two jokers who should not have been anywhere close to any airplane ever trashed a brand new Boeing in perfect Bali holiday conditions. Just lucky that they did not hit that sea wall.

Yeah ... Blast me for not being politically correct and pre-empting the final report. But a donkey is a donkey and not a short furred mammal with four hoofs.

Last edited by MrMachfivepointfive; 15th Apr 2013 at 15:12.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 15:10
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Ventus 45, I hear what you're saying. I just don't believe that the cloud that generated the hypothesised microburst formed, from nothing to one could drop such a MB, in the few minutes from the IAF.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 15:11
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Aha! Obviously a poster with inside information.

Need to add
"Two jokers who should not have been anywhere close to any airplane" to post #283

I would think moolooman has more than enough to go on.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 15:31
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With that bastion of credibility the Indonesian NTSC at the helm (authors of the esteemed Silk Air 'report') I await with baited breath the conclusions.

As Jet Jokey stated quite
- Bad weather (thunderstorm, windshear/microburst).

- Mechanical problems (always a possibility).

- Mediocre flying skills with lack of experience.

- Fitness of the crew (hours on duty).

- And finally, bad airmanship (poor decision making and/or bad judgement).
I know what three I'd bet on.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 15:51
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Which slides didn't deploy?
According to this report Schapelle Corby's boyfriend Ben Panangian was at plane crash scene, helped rescue passengers | News.com.au

"She told News Limited she thought she was going to drown because almost immediately after impact, water started rushing in from the floor of the plane.

Her seat was near where it broke in two.

At first she struggled to free herself and was bleeding heavily from her right leg, but eventually she got out.

She explained none of the rubber slides meant to open after a crash landing had done so. Passengers were forced to jump into the water and swim to safety. "

Some photos suggest forward starboard slide /chute deployed, but I haven't seen evidence of the other three. Passenger descriptions of being rescued in rubber dinghies seem to refer to actual rubber dinghies being used by local surfers.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 16:01
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Schapelle Corby is currently in prison, so that was a good trick
The 'she' referred to is not Ms Corby, whoever that might be; her name is only mentioned because her boyfriend was one of the rescuers.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 16:01
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It will be interesting to see how much thrust was being produced just prior to what rumours suggest was an unintentional ditching. I am sure the investigators will be looking hard at this. As Boeing says 'Severe windshear may exceed the performance of the AFDS system' and the Delta Tristar crash is a good example of the extreme effect of a microburst. If for some reason thrust was too slow in increasing (water ingestion/ human error etc.) this combined with a downdraught could have contributed to the aircraft's failure to climb. It is nearly miraculous that no one was killed.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 16:04
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Does the airport have a low level wind shear alert system?

Wind shear doesnt only occur from a microburst.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 16:04
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This focus on microburst doesn't make any sense. The Bali resident who reported no significant weather 2 miles away makes the microburst thing pure conjecture, no facts. The black boxes are being read now so why not wait and see? Let the journalist wait too. Don't feed him bogus info.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 16:13
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sad looking 738...

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Old 15th Apr 2013, 16:33
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If windshear was not a factor and the aircraft was serviceable, how else did the aircraft land short of the airfield?
How about an incorrect QNH set putting the aircraft below profile
Crew not visual with the runway due to cloud / rain showers prior to the field
Heavy shower encountered at short final and crew persist with approach
Aircraft flys itself into the water
Only clue of ground / water proximity would come from the rad alt EGPWS calls

Last edited by Warped Wings; 15th Apr 2013 at 17:03.
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