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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

Old 15th Oct 2010, 13:19
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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We went through this at Air Canada many years ago, just as now it drifted into politics rather than keeping it within aviation, the result was not pretty and did little other than raise the blood presure of a few. During this time I chanced to fly with one of the main players in the dispute, so I sugested we do the whole cycle in French and see how it went, the problem was he didnt know the technical terms in French for such uninportant things as flaps/gear/trim and a whole bunch of stuff, go figure!
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 13:53
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D Atc said:
Any technical issue relies on the absolute lack of ambiguity. If I say "1 minute" I'm referring to 60 times "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" which remains the same regardless of which country said caesium atom happens to be (luckily).
True enough unless one is talking about navigation...

Things are rarely as simple, or as complicated, as they may seem at first glance.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 14:07
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Clunckdriver:

I was waiting for someone to mention the Air Canada situation. There was a rumour then that Air France had actually approached AC offering to purchase the translated manuals. Just a rumour but it made a good story but then some rumours are actually true!
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 15:48
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MeMyself and BrAtco appear not to be judicial experts. I am no expert on french law, but I am pretty sure the judge does not draft the law in France he applies it. The politicians introduced this legislation and are ultimately responsible. I think M. Long was mentioned earlier.

By the way BrAtco what does 'I would have emitted a doubt about the justice impartiality, but I would have been wrong. Indeed' mean. Feel free to write what you meant in french as I understand the language pretty well having worked in France for a long time.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 16:27
  #105 (permalink)  
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Lederhosen, unless I was in a coma, I don't recall implying the judges DRAFTED the law. They ruled ! , oder beurteilten, if that makes easier for you.

I happen to live in the very padded cell where Mr Toubon DRAFTED that magnificent piece of law that, no doubt, will be in history books for centuries to come. I hope there will be a day where we can all laugh about it.
I obviously have to count you out on that last one.

In zwischen, allow me to be a tad upset at seing my compagny having to cough up silly money which coud be used in a much more productive fashion.
Not one single country in western Europe has ever made a pledge to protect its national linguo in such a stupid way. I don't care if the rest of the world doesn't speak french, as long as my butcher understands me !
Has german disapeared from the face of the earth ? Nein, hat nicht ! Es wird immer noch auf english geflogen und auf deutsch gefeiert !
Has Dutch ? Nope ! Such a small country, kicking and living.

A language, or langue vivante as we say here, stays alive not because there is a law, but because there is a need. And I don't need french to read a bloody approach plate or to study for a type rating.
Those who claim it affects safety should go and spend a term at the British council and avoid flying airplanes.

Last edited by Me Myself; 15th Oct 2010 at 16:41.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 16:55
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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A language, or langue vivante as we say here, stays alive not because there is a law, but because there is a need. And I don't need french to read a bloody approach plate or to study for a type rating.
If you are fluent in French and English, why does it matter whether the approach plate or the manual is French or English? Language is the transmission of information. If the approach plate says your D(H) is 328 feet than it is 328 pieds. If the manual outlines specific limitations, than the language shouldn't matter. At a time I had pretty good knowledge of all three types of approach plates: Aerad, Jeppesen and NOS charts. Different symbols and outlines, but the same information. Some was presented better than others. If the term for bleed air valve is Entlüftungsventil or valve d'échappement, who cares? This English-only argument due to safety is like claiming that a pilot should never hand-fly.

As I have mentioned before, there are plenty of companies that safely fly and operate with dual-languages, sometimes with very little English.

Last edited by Squawk7777; 15th Oct 2010 at 17:07.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 17:24
  #107 (permalink)  
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squawk

I do mind and not a little. This represents mamothal translation work and for no little money.
We've been functionning quite well with these charts, manuals and tutorials until today where we suddenly have to through everything out of the window for a claim made by a group who, at most represent 200 pilots out of 4400.
Approach plates where made for and by both KLM and AF. This now means double the cost for zilch gain in safety.
Would it be the claim of the majority, I would very gracefully yield.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 17:33
  #108 (permalink)  
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Squawk7777;
This English-only argument due to safety is like claiming that a pilot should never hand-fly.
No, it's not the same category of argument at all.

Presuming a healthy individual, there is no possibility of "communication" error in hand-flying an aircraft because it is done by one person who is communicating with his or her physical inputs to the controls. The feedback loop, as it were, is within one location...as it were.

Symbols, signs, words, utterances - those things which "stand for" meaning in complex human interactions and which are employed by one person or document to communicate information to an unknown (if the speaker isn't present) interpreter, (reader, listener) is, at its most philosophical as well as in its most ordinary and fundamental state, an interpretive gesture in which the conveyance of intended meaning cannot and is not guaranteed. Misunderstanding through mistaken interpretation is a significant contributing factor to accidents and wars alike.

None of that obtains when hand-flying an airliner... ;-)

Me Myself;
The Air Canada and French ATC case in Canada are well worth studying in detail - there are lessons there for everyone including minorities.

PJ2
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 20:08
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Language in use?

Which language is supposed to be used for intra-aircraft communications? When doors are to be armed or crew to be seated (for an airline based in country not speaking English) do these announcements have to be made in English or the national language is ok too?

Rwy in Sight
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 21:06
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Originally Posted by Rwy in Sight
Which language is supposed to be used for intra-aircraft communications? When doors are to be armed or crew to be seated (for an airline based in country not speaking English) do these announcements have to be made in English or the national language is ok too?
Rwy in Sight
One would hope the cabin crew would have been trained and competent in those tasks.

Once they are, and the entire cabin crew understands the same language and phraseology, there should be no problem.

But, considering that the pilots may well be expats..... I suppose it becomes a matter of SOPs.
Either the flight deck learns the few necessary phrases in the local language, or the cabin crew learns those same phrases in English.

Anybody here has experience with this?

CJ
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 21:23
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Cool

Hi,

May I remind you that in our democratic system, justice and government are 2 separate things ?
Indeed ...
The governement (legislators) make the laws .. and the judges (clueless or not) make apply the laws
Can emphasize that sometime the (famous) separation between justice and government disappears
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 21:31
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
MeMyself and BrAtco appear not to be judicial experts. I am no expert on french law, but I am pretty sure the judge does not draft the law in France, he applies it. The politicians introduced this legislation and are ultimately responsible.
I agree with lederhosen here.
In this case it's a small sh!t-stirring minority union with a huge chip on its shoulder (a remnant from the Air France / Air Inter merger, and a classic example of the ludicrous French union landscape) that has brought this 'case' before the court.
Nobody else in his right mind would have bothered....

By the way BrAtco what does "I would have emitted a doubt about the justice impartiality, but I would have been wrong. Indeed" mean.
Well.... there are cases where there have been doubts about courts' impartiality, but mostly where the issues were political, or directly involved politicians.

In this case it was simply filed at the local TGI (Tribunal de Grande Instance, use Google and Google translator, if you want to understand what that means) at Bobigny, and the judge had it dumped in his lap, so was obliged to deal with it.

I doubt whether there was any government pressure in this case ... whether the 'tribunal' was competent to deal with the issue is another matter.

CJ
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 21:44
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Cool

Hi,

I shudder to think of what could cause (national language translation) such request in countries like Switzerland or Belgium
Good luck for Swiss and Brussels Airlines
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 21:58
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I shudder to think of what could cause (national language translation) such request in countries like Switzerland or Belgium
South Africa has 11 official languages : English, Afrikaans, South Sotho, Sotho, Tswana, Swazi, Venda, Tsonga, Ndebele, Xhosa and Zulu.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:29
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Next week the court will rule on the use of metric units
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:30
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Originally Posted by jcjeant
I shudder to think of what could cause (national language translation) such request in countries like Switzerland or Belgium
Or really in any other non-English language country.

This moronic and nationalistic attitude makes me shudder, too.....

Let me make myself clear.... and getting back for a moment to the start of the thread.

Translating documents to be used by local staff, ground mechanics, etc., of a non-English-language airline, where said staff does not have sufficient command of English, is not only useful, but necessary to insure a safe operation.

It then becomes the responsability of the airline, that those translations are clear, accurate, and up-to-date, and checked and proof-read by people competent to do so. Unfortunately we all know this is not necessarily always the case....

However, when we start getting a pilots union of a major international airline calling for translation of their daily operating documents in English into their own language for 'security' reasons, we have a major problem.

Not only do they admit they are being employed under false pretences (their employment contract specifies they have to have an adequate command of aviation English, so they should already have been fired), but also they are trying to create a precedent... "it ain't me, it's the company that didn't respect the "Toubon" law"... or "you're discriminating against me becoz I ain't capable of talkin' or understandin' nuff English'".. Recognize the mentality?

Let's hope this cretinism gets nipped in the bud.

CJ
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:42
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Originally Posted by cwatters
Next week the court will rule on the use of metric units
Nice one.....
The Russians will love it....

CJ
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:52
  #118 (permalink)  
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Oh boy… What next — QFE?
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 23:04
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Originally Posted by dvv
Oh boy… What next — QFE?
I thought that was largely settled, with some still using inHg and some using mbar or kPa and largely agreeing to differ.

CJ
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 23:14
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Question

However, when we start getting a pilots union of a major international airline calling for translation of their daily operating documents in English into their own language for 'security' reasons, we have a major problem.
Christiaan, do you have any more info what the 'security' reasons are based upon? Isn't there a more detailed explanation?
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