French ATC
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"you've got crossing traffic 1000ft above in XXX miles, suggest you reduce your rate of climb".
I hope you fly your FPL filed level straight through a TS
TS has to be avoided.
You deal with the TS, I deal with the traffic.
What's your point ?
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Who is flying the plane, you or ATC?
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That's the whole point, seems to me that between LOA's/rigid application of filed FPL's/no direct routings/no different levels and so on they would like to fly airplanes directly from their office desk.
Yep BrATCO, SESAR promises to deliver everything you don't provide now.
Hopefully it will revert the actual trend that has us pilots having to adapt inefficiently to ATC.
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Someone has brought up SESAR, I will just copy/paste a couple of lines from their official website so you can go ahead take it out on Eurocontrol/JAA/FAA and all those ignorant who still think that today's ATC is inefficient:
P.S.: Enjoy the View, thanks goodness the above aren't the words of an Englishmen!!
Claude Godel was the Pilot in Command of the first complete green transatlantic flight, operated by Air France on 6 April from Paris-Charles de Gaulle to Miami.
In a first reaction after this green flight, Captain Godel describes it from a pilot’s perspective, “The AIRE flight is the almost perfect flight for a pilot. On a normal flight you never know how you will be incorporated in the traffic but you are sure that you will fly level at non optimal altitudes, have to beg ATC for better speed, better lateral track. In one word, you spend your time in negotiating or accepting non optimal compromises. The AIRE flight needs more pre-flight preparation but, once off-block, the pilot can expect to fly the best track from end to end, at the best speed and the best altitude. Isn’t that the pilot’s dream?”
In a first reaction after this green flight, Captain Godel describes it from a pilot’s perspective, “The AIRE flight is the almost perfect flight for a pilot. On a normal flight you never know how you will be incorporated in the traffic but you are sure that you will fly level at non optimal altitudes, have to beg ATC for better speed, better lateral track. In one word, you spend your time in negotiating or accepting non optimal compromises. The AIRE flight needs more pre-flight preparation but, once off-block, the pilot can expect to fly the best track from end to end, at the best speed and the best altitude. Isn’t that the pilot’s dream?”
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operated by Air France on 6 April from Paris-Charles de Gaulle to Miami
6th of april wasn't the busiest day in history...
No compromise means no traffic, no weather. Easier during the nights from november to april. A bit more difficult today, or yesterday morning, with the TS...
How do we do when two green tracks are in conflict ? Who yields ? Who decides ?
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How do we do when two green tracks are in conflict ? Who yields ? Who decides ?
P.S.: I like everything that SESARS promises to deliver, what is it exactly that you ATCO don't like about it?
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Maybepilot you are first class entertainment, rarely does someone talk so negatively about ATC and yet quite obviously know and understand so little about it.
It must be so frustrating to get headings and speed control to keep you separated from other traffic which would otherwise just move out of the way for you. How inconvenient to be held at a level that hurts your fuel burn due to traffic.
You sound faintly ridiculous and I`m sure it`s not just the ATCO`s reading this who can see that.
It must be so frustrating to get headings and speed control to keep you separated from other traffic which would otherwise just move out of the way for you. How inconvenient to be held at a level that hurts your fuel burn due to traffic.
You sound faintly ridiculous and I`m sure it`s not just the ATCO`s reading this who can see that.
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Sesar is a dream. On the paper.
Let's talk trajectories.
They want to create them as short as possible.
What happens if a plane wants to go from London to Madrid, and an another one (same type, same weight) wants to go from Madrid to London?
Let's make as in some parts of the world : offset track 5 NM right.
Now, let's put another one from Porto to Brussels. And the way back.
The four of them have a meeting over the Atlantic at FL370 on their 4D trajectories calculated by one of the most up to date computers on this planet and... the controler has to deal with the situation.
The ATM computer part of SESAR can't deal with a four traffic conflict (even if the limit was 8).
As an ATCO, I don't want to be the one who will take the situation when the machine screws. My limit is around 8 steady conflicting aircraft (that's an exemple), if the machine's limit is 10 and it screws... then, good luck... "Sorry, unable..."
Your safety could be at stake there.
That's why I don't like it.
And there's also an issue about human factors. (too much assistance so more difficulties to stay focused)
What you are waiting for is the "free route" part of SESAR. On this, I do agree with you.
But it will never be a "free sky for you alone".
And it doesn't solve the airports' capacity problem.
Let's talk trajectories.
They want to create them as short as possible.
What happens if a plane wants to go from London to Madrid, and an another one (same type, same weight) wants to go from Madrid to London?
Let's make as in some parts of the world : offset track 5 NM right.
Now, let's put another one from Porto to Brussels. And the way back.
The four of them have a meeting over the Atlantic at FL370 on their 4D trajectories calculated by one of the most up to date computers on this planet and... the controler has to deal with the situation.
The ATM computer part of SESAR can't deal with a four traffic conflict (even if the limit was 8).
As an ATCO, I don't want to be the one who will take the situation when the machine screws. My limit is around 8 steady conflicting aircraft (that's an exemple), if the machine's limit is 10 and it screws... then, good luck... "Sorry, unable..."
Your safety could be at stake there.
That's why I don't like it.
And there's also an issue about human factors. (too much assistance so more difficulties to stay focused)
What you are waiting for is the "free route" part of SESAR. On this, I do agree with you.
But it will never be a "free sky for you alone".
And it doesn't solve the airports' capacity problem.
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Thanks goodness we also fly to other countries where ATC is still a good and user friendly service being provided....
Since then my reply is always: "unable"
I might be mistaking, but I think most of the complaints come from UK pilots.
]
But don't believe, you Canadian, that you will be treated better because you speak French !
C'est ce qu'ils croient tous, j'ai l'impression... A bientôt.
C'est ce qu'ils croient tous, j'ai l'impression... A bientôt.
(Don't forget: ignorance is strength) thread
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Folks,
someone wants to play this discussion at a nationalistic level, so please take a note of the fact that I'm not from the UK and that I can speak two more European languages apart from my level 4 English.
I don't really care where someone is coming from as long as they can provide a professional service.
Spanish and French ATCO's lately are working by the rule making pilots' and passengers' lives pretty miserable; that would be absolutely fine if they were also able to express themselves in the English language by the rule, place their mics at a distance from their mouths in order for the pilots to understand what they are trying to say, switch off their mobile phones while on duty, avoid having loud and lively breaks just behind the ATCO on duty and so on.
If you want to work by the rule you should do it all the way.
In the meanwhile I will do the same overhere and if I don't feel like putting too much effort into deviating from my filed flight plan I won't do it and will try to fly my airplane by the book as much as possible.
BrATCO,
so you don't like the SESAR project because you don't believe it will actually work, you actually say it will be technologically and humanly unsafe.
We both agree that what SESAR promises to deliver is much more efficient than what we have today right?
So what would be your idea in order to make today's system more efficient?
By the way, let me remind you the history of ACAS/TCAS where technology has gained priority over human intervention....thanks goodness!
someone wants to play this discussion at a nationalistic level, so please take a note of the fact that I'm not from the UK and that I can speak two more European languages apart from my level 4 English.
I don't really care where someone is coming from as long as they can provide a professional service.
Spanish and French ATCO's lately are working by the rule making pilots' and passengers' lives pretty miserable; that would be absolutely fine if they were also able to express themselves in the English language by the rule, place their mics at a distance from their mouths in order for the pilots to understand what they are trying to say, switch off their mobile phones while on duty, avoid having loud and lively breaks just behind the ATCO on duty and so on.
If you want to work by the rule you should do it all the way.
In the meanwhile I will do the same overhere and if I don't feel like putting too much effort into deviating from my filed flight plan I won't do it and will try to fly my airplane by the book as much as possible.
BrATCO,
so you don't like the SESAR project because you don't believe it will actually work, you actually say it will be technologically and humanly unsafe.
We both agree that what SESAR promises to deliver is much more efficient than what we have today right?
So what would be your idea in order to make today's system more efficient?
By the way, let me remind you the history of ACAS/TCAS where technology has gained priority over human intervention....thanks goodness!
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So the JAL crew coming into Paris/Madrid after a 12 hour flight have the same level of situational awareness as if they were flying into London/Amsterdam?
Wake up and smell the roses!
It is a safety issue!
Wake up and smell the roses!
It is a safety issue!
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Maybepilot, funny enough you complain about language issues, when you don't know even how to write and, as per your post, you're a level 4. Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).
Yeah, I know, I'm limited since I'm not a pilot and I don't fly my toy into Spain and over France, but seriously, get good reasonings or desist altogether. Just ranting like that only shows your true colors. If you want the system to change you'll have to do it by convincing people in it to make a difference. Just pi$$ing people off and hoping to win the lottery (SESAR...or should we call it maybefutureATC?) well, it just won't take you anywhere but down frustration road.
68+iou1: that'll depend on the crew. I've seen, heard, spoken to some crews (asian in general, but some from N America too) just after departure from a big european airport (1 of the top 3) and no words can describe...how will they be after 12hours? only god can tell. We had once a flight plan, from a major asian carrier, stating in field 18: english speaking pilot on board. No comment.
Yeah, I know, I'm limited since I'm not a pilot and I don't fly my toy into Spain and over France, but seriously, get good reasonings or desist altogether. Just ranting like that only shows your true colors. If you want the system to change you'll have to do it by convincing people in it to make a difference. Just pi$$ing people off and hoping to win the lottery (SESAR...or should we call it maybefutureATC?) well, it just won't take you anywhere but down frustration road.
68+iou1: that'll depend on the crew. I've seen, heard, spoken to some crews (asian in general, but some from N America too) just after departure from a big european airport (1 of the top 3) and no words can describe...how will they be after 12hours? only god can tell. We had once a flight plan, from a major asian carrier, stating in field 18: english speaking pilot on board. No comment.
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If you want to work by the rule you should do it all the way.
Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).
Last edited by Squawk7777; 5th Jul 2010 at 10:54. Reason: a f for for
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Squawk7777, indeed, some (more) red tape to navigate around. It had to do with the system we use to test the people's skills. Apparently it was cheaper to use this one we use now (which can only "prove" up to level 5) and keep testing people every so many years, than paying royalties/developing another more robust system (which could ascertain up to level 6).
A beancounters approach. But a working approach, nonetheless.
A beancounters approach. But a working approach, nonetheless.
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Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5
you are not the problem my friend, it's the 90% of your Spanish colleagues.
Just sit behind them on any day and listen to the frequency....
If you want the system to change you'll have to do it by convincing people in it to make a difference. Just pi$$ing people off and hoping to win the lottery (SESAR...or should we call it maybefutureATC?) well, it just won't take you anywhere but down frustration road.
Who's hoping to win the lottery by working to rule by the way?
We had once a flight plan, from a major asian carrier, stating in field 18: english speaking pilot on board. No comment.
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I would love to be able to sit with them, but I do not work in Spain. In any case if can be of any assistance to them and the service they (we) provide I'm right here.
I don't think you got me. I didn't say you can't complain when something is not right. By all means, please do. If we get no feedback we won't know what's up (we all hear and see easier what we want to hear and see; everything else we may need to be told twice, it's human nature). But then again there are ways of doing that. I'm not asking you to go around kissing arse, which you wouldn't anyway, because that would be denigrating for you and probably wouldn't achieve results either. I think it is a matter of action-reaction. Someone in the Spanish thread went on calling idiots all the trainees at Malaga. Immediate reaction: the few spanish controllers on the thread got upset. Thread derails and we go down the name calling avenue."Forget the point of the thread! You called me idiot!" and whatever you had to say, as valid as it may have been, is sidetracked. We are nowhere (maybe even a bit more apart than where we started).
About the falsifying part in your last post. If you know something I don't, please share. And if you think something needs to be reported, please do. I know that ATCO's, at least in Spain, are playing against the organization in order to keep safety levels up (it's turning into a money making exercise down there for the ANSP, forget safety) and they're actually the ones going to the judges with these very same sort of things. Apparently the Spanish "CAA/FAA" (CIAIAC and AESA) are doing a very poor job. Again I'm not there but it's a serious case and goes really deep. Maybe you are all complaining about the same thing and the message is just not getting across.
A.
I don't think you got me. I didn't say you can't complain when something is not right. By all means, please do. If we get no feedback we won't know what's up (we all hear and see easier what we want to hear and see; everything else we may need to be told twice, it's human nature). But then again there are ways of doing that. I'm not asking you to go around kissing arse, which you wouldn't anyway, because that would be denigrating for you and probably wouldn't achieve results either. I think it is a matter of action-reaction. Someone in the Spanish thread went on calling idiots all the trainees at Malaga. Immediate reaction: the few spanish controllers on the thread got upset. Thread derails and we go down the name calling avenue."Forget the point of the thread! You called me idiot!" and whatever you had to say, as valid as it may have been, is sidetracked. We are nowhere (maybe even a bit more apart than where we started).
About the falsifying part in your last post. If you know something I don't, please share. And if you think something needs to be reported, please do. I know that ATCO's, at least in Spain, are playing against the organization in order to keep safety levels up (it's turning into a money making exercise down there for the ANSP, forget safety) and they're actually the ones going to the judges with these very same sort of things. Apparently the Spanish "CAA/FAA" (CIAIAC and AESA) are doing a very poor job. Again I'm not there but it's a serious case and goes really deep. Maybe you are all complaining about the same thing and the message is just not getting across.
A.
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Originally Posted by andrijander
Well I'm spanish and I've got level 5 (can't get 6, since english is not my mother tongue).
You must be considered an "expert speaker" though.
English is my third language but I did get a level 6.
Best regards,
Sabenaboy
Last edited by sabenaboy; 13th Apr 2012 at 05:40.
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An experiment was made 10 or 15 years ago in Paris to make french pilots speak english. For some reason,the resulting decision was to come back to french.Don't know why.
I was an AF F/O on the A320 when this occured...
You seem to imply that we went back to french because pilots were not good enough in english.
Allow me to correct you: We reverted back to french because of the uproar the CDG ATC made at this new "procedure"...
I agree the AF official in charge of the project should have thought of letting the CDG ATC know that - quite suddenly - starting next monday, ALL AF flights would talk to them in english ! That was poor planning on his part...
I remember reading the mention "ATC in french when possible" on the D-ATIS !
But anyway, your reference to the...wait for it... HIMYM show indicates you are one of the "good" ones !
Cheers