French ATC
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I-FORD, you must be using the Premium French ATC, because even after only a few years of experience of international flying, I would not describe it in the way you do. The area controllers are generally ok, but I have seen some real blithering incompetence on tower and approach frequencies. I've lost count of the number of times I've called to get the latest weather and been cleared for start or something completely unrelated to what I asked for. I've had to do a GA because the Tower started a conversation in French with a GA pilot after forgetting to clear us to land. Speaking of which - I fly a jet into a lot of small French airfields often with lots of GA aircraft around. I am really tired of not having the slightest clue where other aircraft are (funnily enough I am not massively confident in being separated from them) in the circuit because I can't understand a word of what is being said (and I can speak rudimentary French!).
I think we all understand that English isn't the easiest language to learn and doing a technical job in a foreign language must be very difficult - I'm lucky I don't need to. But as mentioned above, the Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Austrians, Polish, Swedish and countless other ATS providers seem to manage superbly.
I'll admit to being concerned that preferential treatment is being given to national carriers when people are speaking a language I can't understand. But if you ask many of the international crew I fly with - they'll tell you that this is EXACTLY what happens. Particularly in Spain. I've been denied our requested flight level because an Iberia aircraft was asked if they would like it (in Spanish) instead of us on more than one occasion.
I think we all understand that English isn't the easiest language to learn and doing a technical job in a foreign language must be very difficult - I'm lucky I don't need to. But as mentioned above, the Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Austrians, Polish, Swedish and countless other ATS providers seem to manage superbly.
I'll admit to being concerned that preferential treatment is being given to national carriers when people are speaking a language I can't understand. But if you ask many of the international crew I fly with - they'll tell you that this is EXACTLY what happens. Particularly in Spain. I've been denied our requested flight level because an Iberia aircraft was asked if they would like it (in Spanish) instead of us on more than one occasion.
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Sounds just like Ryanair 
. Am I wrong ?
Are by chance the same pilot that declared on a " Charentais airport " Frequency some time back something like :
"I am a big jet, I am coming once a week to bring your small local airfield prosperity benefits , so get rid of that local GA traffic that is bothering us "
. Am I wrong ?Are by chance the same pilot that declared on a " Charentais airport " Frequency some time back something like :
"I am a big jet, I am coming once a week to bring your small local airfield prosperity benefits , so get rid of that local GA traffic that is bothering us "
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ATC Watcher - don't be a pillock. I am more than happy to share the skies with everyone and always have been for the 16 years I've been flying. I just want to know where they are located so that I can do my best to avoid getting too close to them - and this would be much easier if I could understand what is being said. Not a lot to ask really - almost everyone else seems to manage it.
I find it very hard to believe that anyone would say this - however, in the scenario you describe, when there is an aircraft doing 200 Knots with upto 195 people onboard, once a week - perhaps talking in English to everyone for the 10 minutes or so that is required, might be in everyone's best interests?
I find it very hard to believe that anyone would say this - however, in the scenario you describe, when there is an aircraft doing 200 Knots with upto 195 people onboard, once a week - perhaps talking in English to everyone for the 10 minutes or so that is required, might be in everyone's best interests?
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Don't know what a "pillok" is but I guess it is not meant as a compliment .
On the second part of your message you are right of course, no disagreement here. VFR/VMC and airport OPS are where the single language has its most benefits. Problem is that the rules and the culture cannot be changed as fast an airline schedule addition . RYR posed a real challenge in the small French local mini airports it now serves and that is a real safety issue in itself.
The French DGAC has recently upgraded to class D all the CTRs where RYR is flying to , but the GA activity, aero-clubs , gliders and parachutists club which until now ( and some for over 70 years ) have been the traditional users of those local fields have not changed their ways and culture from one day to another. Remember Gliders pilots and parachutists are not required to speak english ( not affected by JAR-OPS) , but are using the same airspace as you in class E, F and G , when you are approaching those CTRs.
On the second part of your message you are right of course, no disagreement here. VFR/VMC and airport OPS are where the single language has its most benefits. Problem is that the rules and the culture cannot be changed as fast an airline schedule addition . RYR posed a real challenge in the small French local mini airports it now serves and that is a real safety issue in itself.
The French DGAC has recently upgraded to class D all the CTRs where RYR is flying to , but the GA activity, aero-clubs , gliders and parachutists club which until now ( and some for over 70 years ) have been the traditional users of those local fields have not changed their ways and culture from one day to another. Remember Gliders pilots and parachutists are not required to speak english ( not affected by JAR-OPS) , but are using the same airspace as you in class E, F and G , when you are approaching those CTRs.
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ICAO Safety Audit
I decided to delete parts of this message (the donkey who it was adressed to isn't worth it).
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I'll keep the part that has been quoted :
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Have a look :
AuditReports1-CSA
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I'll keep the part that has been quoted :
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Have a look :
AuditReports1-CSA
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Sun worshipper
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BrATCO,
That post seemed to have shut the imbeciles on this thread up.
That ICAO audits report is an absolute gem.
I was part - an interested and active part - in that english fiasco at CDG.
See the culprits in some of the most reactionary pilot unions, especially of that time ( I'm talking about the exIT guys ).
Sad I was when it failed, but now i'm bloody glad French is still there, just because of the French-nbashing we get all the time. my way of showing the finger.
After all, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to come here.
And it's funny how the same people get the favour treatment from their own national ATC : how many times have I been passed into LHR by the speedbird that took off five to ten minutes behind me.
Hypocrites.
That post seemed to have shut the imbeciles on this thread up.
That ICAO audits report is an absolute gem.
I was part - an interested and active part - in that english fiasco at CDG.
See the culprits in some of the most reactionary pilot unions, especially of that time ( I'm talking about the exIT guys ).
Sad I was when it failed, but now i'm bloody glad French is still there, just because of the French-nbashing we get all the time. my way of showing the finger.
After all, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to come here.
And it's funny how the same people get the favour treatment from their own national ATC : how many times have I been passed into LHR by the speedbird that took off five to ten minutes behind me.
Hypocrites.
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BrATCO:
By the way, have a look at this :
AuditReports1-CSA
I recon ICAO is supposed to be a kind of reference in air related business.
By the way, have a look at this :
AuditReports1-CSA
I recon ICAO is supposed to be a kind of reference in air related business.
Simply impressive!
Congratulations! This will hopefully shut some big mouth around here ...
Let´s see how we score in Spain, but you guys left the mark really high!
Saludos!
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I just want to know where they are located so that I can do my best to avoid getting too close to them
As far as I remember my APP career,
VFR flights (planes and hellos, I mean) should be controled and they should sqwak C.
The controler should give you traffic informations in english. And give them traffic informations in french.
You're a 195 passengers plane. Don't worry, usually a VFR flight will see you at first glance.
I'm not aware enough about pilot's procedures, so I'll ask you the question : Can you disconnect the TA/RA things on your TCAS and use it as an help to get visual contact ?
If you are on an IFR approach, you should be number one as soon as you are on final (ish), controller will make so that VFRs yield to you.
As an IFR flight, you must be number one to get a visual approach, VFRs will yield (I might be mistaking on this one, 'cause some things have changed since I moved to ACC. Or maybe, this was one of my "outlaw's" method ?)
I used to give a sqawk C to the VFRs on runway patterns. That wasn't a "stick to the rule" procedure either, but it sometimes helped me find out that trainees had forgotten turning on downwind, then vector them back to the field (with no need to explain where the sqwak's buttons are in a C152 when they start pannicking). I know, Radar vector a VFR below the Minimum Safe Radar Altitude is absolutely not in the book !
Anyway, the controller doesn't want to be scared either. He gets your details and identification some minutes before your first call him. He has prepared his traffic to fit with your arrival.
ie : descend the VFRs at least 500' below your first cleared altitude, or get a horizontal separation margin (twice the minimum was my method with a fast IFR).
The controler doesn't owe you Ifr/Vfr spacing in the TMA, but usually, he provides it anyway (= class C ish airspace), without saying. Neither in french, nor in english. So he doesn't have to provide informations... (Maybe that's why you don't get the traffic infos !)
I'm gessing here, but this controller and me attended the same basic course...
I think the best, if you don't trust the controller, (if you've got time) is to ask (on the freq?) and get up there in the bowl.
You said you speak a bit of french. They are level 4 (at least)in english, you could share your worries with them.
Maybe they will share a coffee with you. And in the end, you could end up reassured on their methods and they might trim some procedures to help you if something sticks at first. (You might have something to change too !)
Last edited by BrATCO; 17th Aug 2010 at 00:00.
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Congratulations! This will hopefully shut some big mouth around here ...
My aim there was just the "big mouths".
I don't really care who's got the "biggest".
We're meant to work all together... Pilots... Controlers... Together...
Wherever the plane is...
Do I hit some minds here ?
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Sad I was when it failed, but now i'm bloody glad French is still there, just because of the French-nbashing we get all the time. my way of showing the finger.
After all, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to come here
After all, if they don't like it, I'm not forcing them to come here
However, I (usually) fly where my employer wants me to. Little do I care to go to Paris (Le Bourget in my case) but I have no choice.
Bon jour !
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Don't even know how to spell and how to use a greeting !
Sheeeesh !!!
One of the uses of striking is to tell one's employer that we don't want to go there, unless he pays ...a lot.
Servility is not in our agenda.
Sheeeesh !!!
I (usually) fly where my employer wants me to
Servility is not in our agenda.
I can’t believe all the hoop la about the French ATC system and the use of French on the airways.
For the record I am Canadian and yes my primary language is French although I consider myself perfectly bilingual because my parents raised us that way (French and English).
I flew based out of Paris (Orly) for almost 3 years back in the late 80s and early 90s. I have been flying worldwide since. I often fly in Europe and I have NEVER encountered problems with the French ATC system or the use of French on the airways.
I just came back from a 5 day trip to France and was handled by Brest, Bordeaux, Marseille and Paris. All were very professional and courteous. Our requests for deviations around weather, climbs, descents and even direct routing to cut corners and save time were generally accepted in a prompt matter.
Yes I do speak French to the French controllers in France as I do in Montreal and the Ottawa ATC sectors here in Canada. Although most professional pilots speak good enough English to communicate properly with ATC some of the amateur pilots flying in both eastern Canada and I suspect in France (and other countries) do not have a proper command of the English language to communicate properly with ATC. This would also apply in Germany, Italy, Spain and so on.
I would much rather have them speak in French to ATC than have them enter some restricted airspace like a control zone around a major airport without communicating with the tower (because they would be unable to do so in english) in others words sneak in and out of the zone in a “NORDO” type scenario like they use to do before French was available to them in some sectors of Canada. Believe me this is a lot safer to all concerned.
Finalement, mes salutations aux cousins français!
Just my $0.02.
For the record I am Canadian and yes my primary language is French although I consider myself perfectly bilingual because my parents raised us that way (French and English).
I flew based out of Paris (Orly) for almost 3 years back in the late 80s and early 90s. I have been flying worldwide since. I often fly in Europe and I have NEVER encountered problems with the French ATC system or the use of French on the airways.
I just came back from a 5 day trip to France and was handled by Brest, Bordeaux, Marseille and Paris. All were very professional and courteous. Our requests for deviations around weather, climbs, descents and even direct routing to cut corners and save time were generally accepted in a prompt matter.
Yes I do speak French to the French controllers in France as I do in Montreal and the Ottawa ATC sectors here in Canada. Although most professional pilots speak good enough English to communicate properly with ATC some of the amateur pilots flying in both eastern Canada and I suspect in France (and other countries) do not have a proper command of the English language to communicate properly with ATC. This would also apply in Germany, Italy, Spain and so on.
I would much rather have them speak in French to ATC than have them enter some restricted airspace like a control zone around a major airport without communicating with the tower (because they would be unable to do so in english) in others words sneak in and out of the zone in a “NORDO” type scenario like they use to do before French was available to them in some sectors of Canada. Believe me this is a lot safer to all concerned.
Finalement, mes salutations aux cousins français!
Just my $0.02.
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 2nd Jul 2010 at 11:27.
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BrATCO,
according to the ICAO report you posted France scored higher than the UK, Germany,the Netherlands,Sweden and is more or less even with the USA and Canada....
One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries.....
according to the ICAO report you posted France scored higher than the UK, Germany,the Netherlands,Sweden and is more or less even with the USA and Canada....
One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries.....
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One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries.....
Two totally different things.
The audit looked if systems were in place , not how the work is done in practice. A good example is on licencing and Certification : the UK scores 7 and France 10. The French system architechture on those fields is probably better, but in reality certainly not. Unlike the UK there is no independant regulator / certificacing body in France, French controllers do not have a license, and the competency verification of the hours worked to validate the license is declarative for controllers ( while it is independant via a logging system in the UK CAA).
In other words,what the ICAO audit say for that part is that the Licensing administration works better in France than in the UK. Not that , for instance actual licensing of Controllers is better.
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French controllers do not have a license, and the competency verification of the hours worked to validate the license is declarative for controllers
The worked hours were not counted. Since the beginning of the month, we sign in. (in my point of view, the reason for the "direct's mess" in Brest. cf one of my previous posts, lack of adaptability...)
One wonders why so many pages of complaints from the users (the pilots) about France and none about the lower scoring countries..
I might be mistaking, but I think most of the complaints come from UK pilots.
There could be the "speaking french" problem.
Really easy to solve, at least in Brest where most of the pilots are english speaking. Why not say "Only English speaking at and above FL300 ?".
I would like it, if it could solve a problem... not sure it would.
But, once more, there should be a change in rules.
Other "could be" problem.
There's a Trafalgar Square, a Waterloo station in UK. We've got a Boulevard Lafaillette and so on.
Maybe some have forgotten that none of us was born in 1066...
The "thumb down" symbol in front of "French ATC" in the title of this thread doesn't help.
If I was to create a "XXYY ATC"
thread, I guess the result wouldn't be exactly the same as with a "Let's talk about the XXYY ATC issue"
.I decided toregister here after 3 pages of being executed with no trial. A lot of destructive messages.
I don't know how other countries deal with that, but in French aviation, a complaint must be filed on a factual basis, in order to try and find a solution.
Yes I do speak French to the French controllers
But don't believe, you Canadian, that you will be treated better because you speak French !
C'est ce qu'ils croient tous, j'ai l'impression... A bientôt.
(I'm afraid they all believe you'll be... hear you soon)
my way of showing the finger.
Interesting attitude. Very french, I dare to say.
Interesting attitude. Very french, I dare to say.
Facts, please. Only facts.
This is my way of showing the finger
We are 65 millions English and 65 millions French. Why on earth should there be only one English attitude and one French attitude ?
Nevertheless, I do agree, some French attitudes sometimes shock me. Some English attitudes shock me also. So is it about Germans, Swiss, Americans,...
Doesn't affect the technical stuff, does it ?
Yes, it could. As attitude is part of the Team Ressource Management stuff.
By reading this thread (at least the beginning), not sure that every English is better than every French on the attitude.
Attitude works both ways. You can't "attitude" alone, can you ?
if your spoken English is as good as your written English
I thaught every body here was just polite enough not to make remarks on my faults.
I guess written and spoken are linked. Someone in a pub, in Edimburgh told me I've got a German accent.
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I might be mistaking, but I think most of the complaints come from UK pilots.
I find Spanish,French and Italian ATC to be the worst in the EU, in this exact order, as far as quality of service provided.
In the French case it's not only a language issue like french spoken to local carriers and poor english spoken to others but also a mix of procedural practices like the one having me 'to be level in 3 minutes maximum" when I have to loose 10k feet in a heavy aircraft showing complete lack of knowledge of aircraft performance.
Once I replied "I'll do my best to accomodate your request, this is not an helicopter"
Marseille said "I'm sure you are able to comply"
Since then my reply is always: "unable"
By the way, i'm not from the UK.
Gender Faculty Specialist
maybepilot, are you always unable to comply or are you just being pig headed? Would you say the same to an English controller?
10,000' in 3 minutes = 3,333'/m. Fairly comfortable really.
10,000' in 3 minutes = 3,333'/m. Fairly comfortable really.
