French ATC
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QUOTE
At Paris Charles de Gaulle airport on 25 May 2000 the co-pilot of a Streamline
Shorts 330freighter was killed when the wingtip of an Air Libert‚ Boeing MD-83that had been cleared for its take-off cut into the cockpit as the 330 was entering the active runway.The MD-83 pilot abandoned take-off. The controller thought the 330 was following the MD-83 to the same holding point, but the Shorts was preparing to start its take-off on the same runway from a taxiway intersection 1,000m (3,280ft) along it. Visibility was poor, but to exacerbate the situation, the controller was talking to Air Libert‚ in French and to Streamline in English. The Streamline pilots did not understand French.
WTF !!!!
At Paris Charles de Gaulle airport on 25 May 2000 the co-pilot of a Streamline
Shorts 330freighter was killed when the wingtip of an Air Libert‚ Boeing MD-83that had been cleared for its take-off cut into the cockpit as the 330 was entering the active runway.The MD-83 pilot abandoned take-off. The controller thought the 330 was following the MD-83 to the same holding point, but the Shorts was preparing to start its take-off on the same runway from a taxiway intersection 1,000m (3,280ft) along it. Visibility was poor, but to exacerbate the situation, the controller was talking to Air Libert‚ in French and to Streamline in English. The Streamline pilots did not understand French.
WTF !!!!
SquawkEmergency...
I have flown to EVERY Country in Central/South America...and have lived and worked for many years in 3 different countries in Africa...
The difference is France purports itself to be a First World nation...Not 3rd world...Get on the bus or walk...join the modern world or be prepared to be classified otherwise...
I have flown to EVERY Country in Central/South America...and have lived and worked for many years in 3 different countries in Africa...
The difference is France purports itself to be a First World nation...Not 3rd world...Get on the bus or walk...join the modern world or be prepared to be classified otherwise...
Besides? How do you define modern? Sticking to only one language to me is a regression. and 7777 does not mean emergency btw
Interestingly, all this whining about non-English ATC at pprune is 95% directed at the French. It seems to me after reading various comments, that it has really nothing to do much about safety, but another bashing against the French and using their language. Where are the complaints on this board about the Germans, Italians, Spanish (non LA), Russians etc.?
... English (Universal Language of International Aviation) ...
Having flown on both sides of the Atlantic my observation is that monoglots complain about everything that is not in their limited box, starting from non-English ATC, then US ATC, then foreign accents etc. Bi-lingual individuals however don't seem to mind even if they are not familiar with that particular R/T language being used. On a personal note and experience, the biggest complainers at my last airline in the UK about the French and their R/T, were the ones that kept on chatting to the f/a up to the FAF, including training captains. So, who is not really paying attention here?
I got my issues with UK ATC, too. In my past experience, some R/T was worded so complicated that even some UK copilots were uncertain about the instruction requested and demanded clarification. I am not bashing or protecting any country here in particular, but some arguments are just being made to ridicule. Old argument, reappearing on pprune...
If you don't like being in a foreign environment, stick to national flying. As previously asked:
Can't we just get along?
Last edited by Squawk7777; 29th Jun 2010 at 09:56.
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Why can't we keep it simple stupid?
Why can't we just do a survey between pilots and see where they deem the service to be up to standard and where they find it to be below?
Talking about Europe I am ready to bet that between France,Spain,Italy and Greece they will score the lowest.
There must be a reason for that and those who provide the service in those countries should ask themselves a few questions, if they want to improve that is...
Why can't we just do a survey between pilots and see where they deem the service to be up to standard and where they find it to be below?
Talking about Europe I am ready to bet that between France,Spain,Italy and Greece they will score the lowest.
There must be a reason for that and those who provide the service in those countries should ask themselves a few questions, if they want to improve that is...
Gender Faculty Specialist
The argument about being bilingual, or not mono-lingual, is invalid.
The reason why there should be one standard language in aviation is just that. So it is a standard.
As pilots we fly to a lot of different countries. As controllers you speak to a lot of pilots from a lot of different countries. Your argument suggests that we should be able to speak, or at least understand, the language of every country that we fly to, which is a ridiculous proposition.
The reason we should have a standard language is so we can have standard, unambiguous phraseology, that everybody understands and everybody can use to increase their situational awareness.
Squawk 7777,
The Germans speak exceptional English and they even speak English to each other, 99% of the time anyway. Their controlling skills are, I suggest, on a par with the UK. No complaints there.
There are at least two threads running at the moment concerning Spanish ATC and their failings.
The reason why there should be one standard language in aviation is just that. So it is a standard.
As pilots we fly to a lot of different countries. As controllers you speak to a lot of pilots from a lot of different countries. Your argument suggests that we should be able to speak, or at least understand, the language of every country that we fly to, which is a ridiculous proposition.
The reason we should have a standard language is so we can have standard, unambiguous phraseology, that everybody understands and everybody can use to increase their situational awareness.
Squawk 7777,
Where are the complaints on this board about the Germans, Italians, Spanish (non LA), Russians etc.?
There are at least two threads running at the moment concerning Spanish ATC and their failings.
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Let's take a 5 year's training and speak... (wait for it)... Esperanto !
No more difference, no more jealousy, no more cheating possiblity, no more argueing on the frequency.
Level 4 for every kind of people around the world.
ICAO has just to chose the date.
No more difference, no more jealousy, no more cheating possiblity, no more argueing on the frequency.
Level 4 for every kind of people around the world.
ICAO has just to chose the date.
More than just an ATCO
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English is now the mandated international language
So how come there are still so many Americans employed in aviation?
BTW I think any flight crew regularly operating into an area where another language is regularly used on the R?T should make an effort to pick up a few of the most important phrases. Even if you don't try to use them it all adds to the situational awareness
The International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.
This has important implications for all aircrew and controllers. Those who do not have proficiency must acquire it by that date or risk removal from international flight routes.
This has important implications for all aircrew and controllers. Those who do not have proficiency must acquire it by that date or risk removal from international flight routes.
So how come there are still so many Americans employed in aviation?
BTW I think any flight crew regularly operating into an area where another language is regularly used on the R?T should make an effort to pick up a few of the most important phrases. Even if you don't try to use them it all adds to the situational awareness
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The trouble is with the above ideas, which both have merit, is that only the British would bother to learn the required language , which the CAA would rigourously enforce. The usual suspects would continue to speak their own languages and destroy everybody else's situational awareness as they do at the moment.
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What was the point of going on strike last Thursday, especially for a proposed reform that's only just a proposal at the moment and on which parliament hasn't yet voted.
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The Germans speak exceptional English and they even speak English to each other, 99% of the time anyway. Their controlling skills are, I suggest, on a par with the UK. No complaints there.
Referring to the international language being English there's also a document that states that the language of the ATCO and pilot can be used if both so agree. Can't find it right now
The usual suspects would continue to speak their own languages and destroy everybody else's situational awareness as they do at the moment.
Icao Faqs:
Do the language provisions reduce the need to use standardized phraseology?
Absolutely not! In fact, the language provisions adopted in November 2003 reinforce the case for the use of standardized phraseology (See Annex 10, Volume II, paragraph 5.1.1.1). Pilots and controllers shall use ICAO standardized phraseology in all situations for which it has been specified and resort to plain language in radiotelephony communications only when standardized phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission.In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on the evaluation of language proficiency".
Are all members of the flight crew required to meet the language proficiency requirements?
All pilots shall meet the language proficiency requirements when they fly internationally. The provisions contained in Annex 10 (Chapter 5, former paragraphs 5.2.1.2.3 and 5.2.1.2.4), which allowed the use of interpreters, have been withdrawn.In what intervals shall language proficiency be demonstrated?
The ICAO Standards on language proficiency require that aeroplane and helicopter pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators who demonstrate proficiency below the Expert Level (Level 6) shall be formally evaluated at intervals in accordance with an individual's demonstrated proficiency level. The interval will have to be established by each Civil Aviation Authority. ICAO is recommending an interval of six years for those at the Extended Level (Level 5) and three years for those at the Operational Level (Level 4).So, from the horse's mouth...
- GY
It might be true that light a/c at smaller airfields in Germany might be heard to conduct their r/t in German. However, my experience is that in all other cases a/c and ATC use English for all pertinent (i.e. safety related) communications.
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It might be true that light a/c at smaller airfields in Germany might be heard to conduct their r/t in German. However, my experience is that in all other cases a/c and ATC use English for all pertinent (i.e. safety related) communications.
Avman & co., we could make a hamster wheel out of this based on your, mine and other people's experience. This argument has been going back and forth ever since I registered with this bb. Fact is, more than one language is spoken on this planet and for those whose native language is the "international one" they will press to make it the only language to be used. For the other ones it's vice versa. It really comes down to subconscious nationalism/culturalism /whatever-ism more than anything else. Looking at the Latin America dual-language ATC thread that is probably about two years old and awaiting resurrection, I can understand the opposite arguments as well as some arguments brought up on this one (and it's not a Spanish-language failing one like CM suggests). My take on it is that it has more to do with anti-xxx and xxx-ism than safety (and usually gets blamed on France). Some arguments can be tossed back & forth with a greater endurance than the latest marathon Wimbledon match.
Last edited by Squawk7777; 29th Jun 2010 at 18:52. Reason: quote
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Just to add fuel to the French fire, their habits are now affecting the southern parts of the UK airspace as we are now getting complaint calls when we transfer aircraft to them cleared to a point beyond the UK FIR boundary fix (ie. a mini short cut 
).
There are several other issues going on too that are trying to be resolved, however if Brest get their way (sorry BrATCO but it is your centre being the most difficult) then the UK procedures will have to change further creating an even worse situation than already exists.
Can't believe none of the Ryanair pilots have come on complaining about the Brest refusal to work aircraft inbound to certain destinations as far as 300nm south of the UK FIR boundary so they have to be level capped with Paris maximum FL270. Now THAT has to hurt fuel burn, the environment.....
).There are several other issues going on too that are trying to be resolved, however if Brest get their way (sorry BrATCO but it is your centre being the most difficult) then the UK procedures will have to change further creating an even worse situation than already exists.
Can't believe none of the Ryanair pilots have come on complaining about the Brest refusal to work aircraft inbound to certain destinations as far as 300nm south of the UK FIR boundary so they have to be level capped with Paris maximum FL270. Now THAT has to hurt fuel burn, the environment.....
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Well, british RT behaviour affects quite a large area beyond its FIR boundaries, especially the damnable practice PAN stuff.
As to Squawk7777, quite correct, in german english is only the primary language in IFR RT, for planes flying under VFR both german and english can be used and in fact german is in many cases the primary one as most VFR pilots sadly are not proficient in english.
As to Squawk7777, quite correct, in german english is only the primary language in IFR RT, for planes flying under VFR both german and english can be used and in fact german is in many cases the primary one as most VFR pilots sadly are not proficient in english.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Squawk 7777,
Firstly I didn't say they can't communicate in English. What I said was that 99% of the time that I spend flying in Germany the Germans speak English to other Germans, very well. And that is not an exaggeration as 100% of the flying I do in Germany is IFR so Denti is supporting my opinion. And just because I have mentioned that German controlling is very good does not mean that I consider everyone else to be worse.
Secondly I didn't suggest that the problems with Spanish ATC were Spanish Language failings. I simply pointed out, in answer to your question, that there are two threads running concerning Spanish ATC at the moment.
My opinion, if you want it, is that, generally ATC in Europe is pretty good. However, there are specific countries that excel at what they do.
There are occasions when I have cause to complain about ATC but I'll put that down to the individual controlling at the time and as I don't know what kind of day they are having I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and remain emotionless and professional about any problems I encounter. There are no anti-isms or anything else race or nationality related, as far as I am concerned.
I do agree with you that this is an eternal argument and all we can do is remain professional when we are communicating. Speak clearly and slowly like you were taught and we'll all get along like a house on fire.
Disagree. Holder of the German BZF 2 (if that RT license still exists) can still communicate in German
Secondly I didn't suggest that the problems with Spanish ATC were Spanish Language failings. I simply pointed out, in answer to your question, that there are two threads running concerning Spanish ATC at the moment.
My opinion, if you want it, is that, generally ATC in Europe is pretty good. However, there are specific countries that excel at what they do.
There are occasions when I have cause to complain about ATC but I'll put that down to the individual controlling at the time and as I don't know what kind of day they are having I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and remain emotionless and professional about any problems I encounter. There are no anti-isms or anything else race or nationality related, as far as I am concerned.
I do agree with you that this is an eternal argument and all we can do is remain professional when we are communicating. Speak clearly and slowly like you were taught and we'll all get along like a house on fire.
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5milesbaby, don't be sorry, I'm glad we can communicate.
I think you're reffering to flows DVL and RESMI.
Big problem there !
Could be a thread by itself ("ATC Issues" ?). But I would like not to answer here, if you don't mind.
Includes the level capping.
I don't know if I can help you as I didn't participate the thinktank.
Regarding the mini short cuts, here is MY answer.
I think that's a major issue, pilots are concerned too and everyone here deserves an explanation.
I insist ! This is MY PERSONAL ANSWER, my feeling, nothing more. I could be mistaking all the way long.
You're right, you're adding fuel... and here is my match.
I've worked in ATC for 20 years and I had never seen such a mess.
Someone, up there, has decided that we have now to stick to the rules : work more, split sectors,...
As previously explained in this thread, splitting sectors increases safety, but decreases flow improvement possibilities (use of flow management,routes, RFL,...)
A traffic overflow on a "non-splitable"(basic) sector might rapidly become desastrous. No way out, no backup...
Some of you may remember the DCTs we used to give : LORKU-STG or KORUL-INSUN, PON-RATKA/TAKAS (500 NM), PON-STG (600 NM). We can't do that anymore.
A direct must be co-ordinated before being given.
We used to give directs with no coordination through 5 or 6 sectors. This is, and was, forbidden (correct me if I'm wrong).
Since the "stick to the rule" thing has been implemented, believe me, a direct is really hard to get by day (easier during nights : less sectors, less coordinations)
Everyone in the control room is on the deck to improve the system. ie FMP, supervisors, ... to find the best configurations. We sometimes change our scheme every 30min to fit the traffic as best we can.
Maybe you've noticed there are more and more micro-directs since a few days. Maybe not. We still need trimming (indeed !)
ATC is a team job and we've got to find the direction where to push toghether.
Screaming on us won't help...but feel free.
And, please, believe me, we're doing our best in regard of the present situation.
If I say "Call you back" and I don't call you back, the reason might be that I still don't have the answer to your question.
I'd like to get back to the "ancient" methods, but I don't know how (and when) this will all be sorted out. I wish it could have been done before this summer, but...
Some collegues are threatened of punishment for not having followed the new rules. Not ATC rules, management rules.(So much for our worldwide renowned status, must please some ones !
ACCP, if you read me...)
5milesbaby, as far as I'm concerned, that's a reason for the calls.
Please coordinate the directs, you should get them if that helps you, but let me and my collegues take the responsability in our sectors. Or stick to the LOA... Sorry.
All right,now. Shoot at will.
I think you're reffering to flows DVL and RESMI.
Big problem there !
Could be a thread by itself ("ATC Issues" ?). But I would like not to answer here, if you don't mind.
Includes the level capping.
I don't know if I can help you as I didn't participate the thinktank.
Just to add fuel to the French fire, their habits are now affecting the southern parts of the UK airspace as we are now getting complaint calls when we transfer aircraft to them cleared to a point beyond the UK FIR boundary fix (ie. a mini short cut 
).
).
I think that's a major issue, pilots are concerned too and everyone here deserves an explanation.
I insist ! This is MY PERSONAL ANSWER, my feeling, nothing more. I could be mistaking all the way long.
You're right, you're adding fuel... and here is my match.
I've worked in ATC for 20 years and I had never seen such a mess.
Someone, up there, has decided that we have now to stick to the rules : work more, split sectors,...
As previously explained in this thread, splitting sectors increases safety, but decreases flow improvement possibilities (use of flow management,routes, RFL,...)
A traffic overflow on a "non-splitable"(basic) sector might rapidly become desastrous. No way out, no backup...
Some of you may remember the DCTs we used to give : LORKU-STG or KORUL-INSUN, PON-RATKA/TAKAS (500 NM), PON-STG (600 NM). We can't do that anymore.
A direct must be co-ordinated before being given.
We used to give directs with no coordination through 5 or 6 sectors. This is, and was, forbidden (correct me if I'm wrong).
Since the "stick to the rule" thing has been implemented, believe me, a direct is really hard to get by day (easier during nights : less sectors, less coordinations)
Everyone in the control room is on the deck to improve the system. ie FMP, supervisors, ... to find the best configurations. We sometimes change our scheme every 30min to fit the traffic as best we can.
Maybe you've noticed there are more and more micro-directs since a few days. Maybe not. We still need trimming (indeed !)
ATC is a team job and we've got to find the direction where to push toghether.
Screaming on us won't help...but feel free.
And, please, believe me, we're doing our best in regard of the present situation.
If I say "Call you back" and I don't call you back, the reason might be that I still don't have the answer to your question.
I'd like to get back to the "ancient" methods, but I don't know how (and when) this will all be sorted out. I wish it could have been done before this summer, but...
Some collegues are threatened of punishment for not having followed the new rules. Not ATC rules, management rules.(So much for our worldwide renowned status, must please some ones !
ACCP, if you read me...) 5milesbaby, as far as I'm concerned, that's a reason for the calls.
Please coordinate the directs, you should get them if that helps you, but let me and my collegues take the responsability in our sectors. Or stick to the LOA... Sorry.
All right,now. Shoot at will.
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@Denti
in fact german is in many cases the primary one as most VFR pilots sadly are not proficient in english
are you still struggeling with the 4:1 ???????
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If every pilot had to learn a little of each language spoken by each country then you would need an extra years training for their ATPL.
The fact is that in each country the schools teach their own language and at least one other foreign language. That other language in ( roughly ) 95% of the cases is English.
In my experience of travelling around the world this means that a lot of the natives to those countries either speak English as their first or second language.
It is therefore just good luck for us English/ Americans/ Canadians/ New Zealanders/ Australians etc.
English, therefore, is the international language by default. It does not make me lazy as an Englishman as a none speaker of French or Spanish or Portugese or Russian etc because I only learnt German and Latin at school as secondary languages.
So I repeat, English like it or not is the international language understood by all commercial pilots. So use it all of the time.
T21
The fact is that in each country the schools teach their own language and at least one other foreign language. That other language in ( roughly ) 95% of the cases is English.
In my experience of travelling around the world this means that a lot of the natives to those countries either speak English as their first or second language.
It is therefore just good luck for us English/ Americans/ Canadians/ New Zealanders/ Australians etc.
English, therefore, is the international language by default. It does not make me lazy as an Englishman as a none speaker of French or Spanish or Portugese or Russian etc because I only learnt German and Latin at school as secondary languages.
So I repeat, English like it or not is the international language understood by all commercial pilots. So use it all of the time.
T21
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In the last 30 years, apart when they where on strike, I never had less than the most professional services by french ATC.
One of the funniest posts I read here in the past 30 years!!!!!