French ATC
More than just an ATCO
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I can only accomodate their request if they give me a 'short cut'.
Heavy Airborne you may be aware of the requirement for High Level inbounds to AMS to be level 260 20DME N of EEL often coupled with a speed restriction of 260 IAS, when in range. (usually at EEL in practice, depending on the AMS controller) In the past a certain (Blue) airline's pilots had difficulty understanding it so the instruction from another, fortunately long gone, controller was, "260 is the number; descend to it, reduce to it or turn to it"and those too high, or too fast for the stream went to the back of the queue and got another go
Of course, it wouldn't happen now
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There are some very good French controllers. Only problem is, they are six feet under ground
Now I know the best you wish me.
Are you really ready to kill the publican everytime you don't get a free beer ?
I have decided that if the Frogs ask me to adjust my level or speed when established in the cruise, then due to 'operational reasons' I can only accomodate their request if they give me a 'short cut'.
)Seriously, don't adjust anything, everybody will adjust around you. You are the center of your universe, I understand that.
Yes, I really do ! And, you know what ? You're also the center of MY universe when you're on the frequency I work. Nothing personal, I consider that's part of my job.
Hope we can get back to our usual worst service on Earth ASAP... you seem to miss it.
Person Of Interest
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BrATCO...No problem here...
Just speak English (Universal Language of International Aviation) to all A/C, INCLUDING French A/C and this thread wouldn't even exist...
Your so-called "frog humor" is not very funny, but then again, maybe it's the attitude...
Just speak English (Universal Language of International Aviation) to all A/C, INCLUDING French A/C and this thread wouldn't even exist...
Your so-called "frog humor" is not very funny, but then again, maybe it's the attitude...
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Also the reason why RYR often request different levels to what is filed is that nearly all their Flight Plans are RPLs so it just spits out the same speed, level and route on a repetitive basis.
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Ignorance
In most Northern Europe Countries, the most dummy janitor speak three to four langages. I can speak English, French and Spanish to ATCs because I took the time to learn. This is easy stuff compared to other aspects of flying. Pilots that are too intellectually limited to learn a second language should not disclose this intellectual handicap.
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@BrATCO: Tout ça c'est bien gentil mais pourquoi vous êtes aussi souvent en grève, vous les Français, comparé aux autres contrôleurs, surtout les européens du Nord? Est-ce que ce n'est pas parce vous êtes tellement privilgéliés et avez une telle sécurité de l'emploi que vous vous foutez de tout?
Last edited by ACCP; 27th Jun 2010 at 10:06.
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Your so-called "frog humor" is not very funny, but then again, maybe it's the attitude...
Just speak English (Universal Language of International Aviation) to all A/C, INCLUDING French A/C and this thread wouldn't even exist...
An experiment was made 10 or 15 years ago in Paris to make french pilots speak english. For some reason,the resulting decision was to come back to french.Don't know why.
I wouldn't mind speaking english. But french is a RT language also. If a pilot calls me in french over France, I must speak french with him. This is not my decision. That's a pilot/operator's issue (IATA, ICAO, ?), not only french ATC.
Unfortunately the 'resulting decision' you were talking about was purely based on chauvinistic grounds and by the french government. I think it was AF who decided to do all atc comms in English but they got a slap on the wrist from the government under union pressure as well (but I stand to be corrected on that version of events).
If they had done a proper assessment and decided to continue bilingual atc comms based on good arguments I could live with it.
It is unbelievable that France keeps doing this the way they do when the rest of Europe seems to be able to move over time. Especially after the whole LPE-thing becoming mandatory for international commercial air transport operations I can't believe why we are still hearing two languages at major international airports in France...
At least they will have to yield a little when the Single European Sky becomes reality.
If they had done a proper assessment and decided to continue bilingual atc comms based on good arguments I could live with it.
It is unbelievable that France keeps doing this the way they do when the rest of Europe seems to be able to move over time. Especially after the whole LPE-thing becoming mandatory for international commercial air transport operations I can't believe why we are still hearing two languages at major international airports in France...
At least they will have to yield a little when the Single European Sky becomes reality.
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For the latinos !
And the froggies still speak french at CDG, re last post some time ago
QUOTE
At Paris Charles de Gaulle airport on 25 May 2000 the co-pilot of a Streamline Aviation
Shorts 330freighter was killed when the wingtip of an Air Libert‚ Boeing MD-83that had been cleared for its take-off cut into the cockpit as the 330 was entering the active runway.The MD-83 pilot abandoned take-off. The controller thought the 330 was following the MD-83 to the same holding point, but the Shorts was preparing to start its take-off on the same runway from a taxiway intersection 1,000m (3,280ft) along it. Visibility was poor, but to exacerbate the situation, the controller was talking to Air Libert‚ in French and to Streamline in English. The Streamline pilots did not understand French.
UNQUOTE
WTF !!!!
QUOTE
At Paris Charles de Gaulle airport on 25 May 2000 the co-pilot of a Streamline Aviation
Shorts 330freighter was killed when the wingtip of an Air Libert‚ Boeing MD-83that had been cleared for its take-off cut into the cockpit as the 330 was entering the active runway.The MD-83 pilot abandoned take-off. The controller thought the 330 was following the MD-83 to the same holding point, but the Shorts was preparing to start its take-off on the same runway from a taxiway intersection 1,000m (3,280ft) along it. Visibility was poor, but to exacerbate the situation, the controller was talking to Air Libert‚ in French and to Streamline in English. The Streamline pilots did not understand French.
UNQUOTE
WTF !!!!
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@BrATCO: I noticed you didn't answer my point about being on strike a lot more often than your european colleagues. What was the point of going on strike last Thursday, especially for a proposed reform that's only just a proposal at the moment and on which parliament hasn't yet voted.
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I wouldn't mind speaking english. But french is a RT language also. If a pilot calls me in french over France, I must speak french with him. This is not my decision. That's a pilot/operator's issue (IATA, ICAO, ?), not only french ATC.
For all the other cases I think is more correct "You can".. (and for general safety you should speak french only if all the station you've in contact speak french)
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ACCP,
From my point of view, strike is a serious lose-lose situation.
Why more in France than in the rest of europe? Maybe there are differences in the way governments deal with their responsabilities.
That's a political issue, I leave it to politicians.
I didn't go on strike last tuesday, I can't answer for the ones who did.
From my point of view, strike is a serious lose-lose situation.
Why more in France than in the rest of europe? Maybe there are differences in the way governments deal with their responsabilities.
That's a political issue, I leave it to politicians.
I didn't go on strike last tuesday, I can't answer for the ones who did.
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I'm glad you didn't go on strike.
I have no time at all and no words to describe those who did. Sheltered in their cosseted "statut de fonctionnaire", with a job for life and a good pension, they couldn't give a toss about the fate of passengers left stranded, the fragile state of airlines and their employees struggling to stay afloat, as if we hadn't had enough to put up with this year.
Their action is one of utter and contemptuous selfishness.
Kenavo
I have no time at all and no words to describe those who did. Sheltered in their cosseted "statut de fonctionnaire", with a job for life and a good pension, they couldn't give a toss about the fate of passengers left stranded, the fragile state of airlines and their employees struggling to stay afloat, as if we hadn't had enough to put up with this year.
Their action is one of utter and contemptuous selfishness.
Kenavo
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While you guys complain about Europe, I happen to think about Chine, where you are zigzagging across the country for hours, and if you are lucky you will land at an airport where you can speak directly to the controllers, and not thru a translator.
In Europe, the main problem is on the airline side, dispatch manpower that is; here is an example: Planned thru czech airpace for about 50 NM at FL350, you often will get a restricting slot. As I know this problem, I will call the dispatcher responsible for this flight asking if either a reroute avoiding Czechia or a lower FL would help, and there will be three possible outcomes: Nobody answers the call, "we do not have the manpower", or a minor change of flight plan and an immediate departure. I never experienced dispatchers coming up with a solution for a painful slot restriction on their own.
In Europe, the main problem is on the airline side, dispatch manpower that is; here is an example: Planned thru czech airpace for about 50 NM at FL350, you often will get a restricting slot. As I know this problem, I will call the dispatcher responsible for this flight asking if either a reroute avoiding Czechia or a lower FL would help, and there will be three possible outcomes: Nobody answers the call, "we do not have the manpower", or a minor change of flight plan and an immediate departure. I never experienced dispatchers coming up with a solution for a painful slot restriction on their own.
Last edited by heavy.airbourne; 28th Jun 2010 at 03:53.
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This threads is like a comet : comes back regularly every 5 years or so with same arguments /consequences.
"us" and " them villains" , pilots vs controllers, English vs French language on R/T, French " exceptions ", " right of strike". etc.
Since 5 years ago, nothing new. So sterile debate .
Just 2 (old) comments for the new here :
Re the MD80-Shorts collision in CDG in 2000 : the cause of this accident was not language but intersection take off badly authorized by ATC. What a common language could have done there was increase situation awareness that might have alerted one of the Shorts crew that someone else was cleared for take off on that same runway they mistakenly entering. One of the recommendations on that report asked for a single language in runway ops . Common sense .
The French ATC administration called for English only in CDG as a result from a specific date. After 2 days the French Pilots union of Air France objected strongly quoting safety issues , and on their pressure and that of Air France OPS , the " experiment" was cancelled. The CDG controllers had no problem, some AF and ex IT pilots did.
Secondly :
Not as categorical .. The actual text in the French AIP says that "French language is (unless particular conditions like training for instance) used between a French pilot and a French controller "
There is no " must" and in practice , every pilot calling in English on the R/T will be answered in English, and this not only in France but nearly everywhere in the world.
Also using national languages is not prohibited by ICAO, on the contrary, it is just like the metric system. Something there since 1944 (Chicago Convention ) that no-one wants to challenge by fear of re-opening the Pandora box ( like the Oceanic FIR boundaries for instance ).
So banning French ( or Spanish, Russian ,etc..) on the R/T is not as simple as it looks and not really a Controller problem as we should be all level 4 by now..
"us" and " them villains" , pilots vs controllers, English vs French language on R/T, French " exceptions ", " right of strike". etc.
Since 5 years ago, nothing new. So sterile debate .
Just 2 (old) comments for the new here :
Re the MD80-Shorts collision in CDG in 2000 : the cause of this accident was not language but intersection take off badly authorized by ATC. What a common language could have done there was increase situation awareness that might have alerted one of the Shorts crew that someone else was cleared for take off on that same runway they mistakenly entering. One of the recommendations on that report asked for a single language in runway ops . Common sense .
The French ATC administration called for English only in CDG as a result from a specific date. After 2 days the French Pilots union of Air France objected strongly quoting safety issues , and on their pressure and that of Air France OPS , the " experiment" was cancelled. The CDG controllers had no problem, some AF and ex IT pilots did.
Secondly :
According to french communications regulations, if you are French you MUST speak French with French ATC
There is no " must" and in practice , every pilot calling in English on the R/T will be answered in English, and this not only in France but nearly everywhere in the world.
Also using national languages is not prohibited by ICAO, on the contrary, it is just like the metric system. Something there since 1944 (Chicago Convention ) that no-one wants to challenge by fear of re-opening the Pandora box ( like the Oceanic FIR boundaries for instance ).
So banning French ( or Spanish, Russian ,etc..) on the R/T is not as simple as it looks and not really a Controller problem as we should be all level 4 by now..
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Thank you, Enjoy the view ! I must admit I felt a bit lonely during the last few days...
I would like to help those who could be interested :
https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv...ADIOTEL_V2.pdf
Have a look at "5.Expressions" (page 17).
When the traffic's busy, some foreign pilots sometimes try to ask for directs in french while crossing France. Obviously in order to help us not be harassed by too many requests afterwards.
We appreciate the effort.
But don't believe it works everytime. If the direct is available, usually, you already have it. As everywhere around the world, I assume.
Did you know that over France (how silly we are !) when a French plane is behind, it stays behind.
That's our rule : Closer/faster/first/ahead, Farther/slower/second/behind, whatever the company. (It's official now, AFR pilots will come on this thread and kill me... OK, I'm ready, I've seen worse).
This is the french vision of being civil servants.
An other point about the "service public à la française". I really want you to know that !
At the end of each year, when the DGAC has paid all its bills, the remainig money is given back to the companies (I know, you don't believe me, but it's true !). That's a 1948 law (correct me if I'm wrong).
And, finally, my answer to ACCP :
As a civil servant, I should not be fired for economical reason, that's right. Every other good reason still works. Do you really believe France is in another galaxy ?
After reading you, I suggest you start a politician's carrier in France. The Ministry of Work could soon be vacated...
PS : Thanks also to ATC watcher whose post was much more accurate than mine.
I would like to help those who could be interested :
https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv...ADIOTEL_V2.pdf
Have a look at "5.Expressions" (page 17).
When the traffic's busy, some foreign pilots sometimes try to ask for directs in french while crossing France. Obviously in order to help us not be harassed by too many requests afterwards.
We appreciate the effort.
But don't believe it works everytime. If the direct is available, usually, you already have it. As everywhere around the world, I assume.
Did you know that over France (how silly we are !) when a French plane is behind, it stays behind.
That's our rule : Closer/faster/first/ahead, Farther/slower/second/behind, whatever the company. (It's official now, AFR pilots will come on this thread and kill me... OK, I'm ready, I've seen worse).
This is the french vision of being civil servants.
An other point about the "service public à la française". I really want you to know that !
At the end of each year, when the DGAC has paid all its bills, the remainig money is given back to the companies (I know, you don't believe me, but it's true !). That's a 1948 law (correct me if I'm wrong).
And, finally, my answer to ACCP :
As a civil servant, I should not be fired for economical reason, that's right. Every other good reason still works. Do you really believe France is in another galaxy ?
After reading you, I suggest you start a politician's carrier in France. The Ministry of Work could soon be vacated...
PS : Thanks also to ATC watcher whose post was much more accurate than mine.