Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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It seems that somotogravic illusion is an insidious killer which can catch even the most experienced
Have we really only just discovered it?
Quote:
It seems that somotogravic illusion is an insidious killer which can catch even the most experienced
BOAC
- I really cannot believe I am reading that. Whatever fancy name it gets, it has been around for decades (used to be called 'disorientation'). It is not 'complex' nor should it need to be 'taught in the sim' (nor, I suspect, can it be). It should be a basic keystone in every pilot's ACTUAL training, especially for those who go on to fly without external visual reference. That is what the 'instruments' are for and they are what pilots should be told to use.
Have we really only just discovered it?
It seems that somotogravic illusion is an insidious killer which can catch even the most experienced
BOAC
- I really cannot believe I am reading that. Whatever fancy name it gets, it has been around for decades (used to be called 'disorientation'). It is not 'complex' nor should it need to be 'taught in the sim' (nor, I suspect, can it be). It should be a basic keystone in every pilot's ACTUAL training, especially for those who go on to fly without external visual reference. That is what the 'instruments' are for and they are what pilots should be told to use.
Have we really only just discovered it?
There might come the day, when we have to re-discover basic flying all over again.
franzl
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BOAC:
I recall it was called Attitude Instrument Flying for many decades.
- I really cannot believe I am reading that. Whatever fancy name it gets, it has been around for decades (used to be called 'disorientation'). It is not 'complex' nor should it need to be 'taught in the sim' (nor, I suspect, can it be). It should be a basic keystone in every pilot's ACTUAL training, especially for those who go on to fly without external visual reference. That is what the 'instruments' are for and they are what pilots should be told to use.
That is what the 'instruments' are for and they are what pilots should be told to use.
You are quite right. This is basic stuff regarding instrument flying. The question is whether this problem is due to complacency or poor training.
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Quote: That is what the 'instruments' are for and they are what pilots should be told to use.
BOAC,
You are quite right. This is basic stuff regarding instrument flying. The question is whether this problem is due to complacency or poor training.
BOAC,
You are quite right. This is basic stuff regarding instrument flying. The question is whether this problem is due to complacency or poor training.
It is probably easier (much?) to ignore SI whien already flying on instruments than during an unexpected loss of external visual references.
While it is not possible to fully replicate the conditions to induce SI it training on sudden transitions from visual to instrument conditions could incorporate deliberatly exagerated pitch up cues to reinforce the need to trust instruments over "seat of pants" in those conditions.
Last edited by MurphyWasRight; 19th Jun 2010 at 13:07. Reason: added simulator traing text
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Hmmm. It seems my comments may have been misinterpretted. I'm not for one moment suggesting it's something new. What I am suggesting is that the amplified effects in modern high performance jet transports are perhaps NOT as understood as they should be - and this does indeed come down to training. During basic instrument flying training we are of course taught about disorientation and that we must trust our instruments - but never once did I hear the specific phrase "somatogravic illusion" and I would wage that there are a considerable number of pilots who have also never heard the phrase but are fully au fait with "disorientation".
As for not addressing the issue in the sim...... Gulf Air (BAH), Sochi (Black Sea), Flash Airlines ex Sharm (?) and now Afriqiyah (Libya) - it would seem that the basics are indeed being forgotton/lost when most needed. How do we address that? Training. Not only in the sim but by improving peoples (lack of) understanding that the sensation of a low gross weight, IMC, TOGA go-around can be MASSIVELY disorientating to the point that aircraft have subsequently been pointed straight back at and into the ground.
A4
As for not addressing the issue in the sim...... Gulf Air (BAH), Sochi (Black Sea), Flash Airlines ex Sharm (?) and now Afriqiyah (Libya) - it would seem that the basics are indeed being forgotton/lost when most needed. How do we address that? Training. Not only in the sim but by improving peoples (lack of) understanding that the sensation of a low gross weight, IMC, TOGA go-around can be MASSIVELY disorientating to the point that aircraft have subsequently been pointed straight back at and into the ground.
A4
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up
The question is whether this problem is due to complacency or poor training.
After initial training on type, the first time a guy will see the real cockpit, it will be with a full pax load behind.
Before any revenue flight, there would be some powerful stuff to experiment in a couple of hours on the real aircraft as long as there is an experienced guy on the other seat, a powerful go around would be one of those items, something to remember, something to think about ...
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It seems that somotogravic illusion is an insidious killer which can catch even the most experienced and of course it's usually close to the ground.
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The 'secret' cure for all of this is in BASIC pilot training, not airline training, type rating, sim training or anywhere else.
It needs to be drummed into pilots' heads right from early days that the instruments are there to be followed. All the accidents quoted are caused because pilots are IGNORING their instruments. It is very rare for an instrument failure to cause a crash on its own, especially with back-up instruments. It is a big lesson and MUST be taught early.
Somatagravic refers to the effects of linear acceleration while somatogyral refers to rotational illusion. Both have been around since aircraft first flew. Both can be overcome by a strong inbuilt discipline to ignore the confusion and fly the instruments. The body is built to perform near sea-level, in air and at walking pace. The moment we try to go away from 'home' is when the trouble starts.
You will NOT crash during rapid acceleration or deceleration IF you fly the correct pitch attitude. You will not enter a 'graveyard spiral' if you fly the correct bank angle. The stimuli are so strong, (and complicated by the brain causing co-temporal eye 'disorientation') that the lesson MUST be given loud and clear at the beginning of life as a pilot. Now we generally have such obvious and compelling attitude displays I find it difficult to believe that they are being ignored. How we combat this apparent 'loss of memory' in aviation training I do not know. Maybe a poster campaign, videos (as the early USAF 'disorientation' film - 'Disoriented? Get on the Gauges' - corny but effective), talking to the 'kids' (and undoubtedly some of the adults too in that 'quiet moment'), awareness in training personnel of the sheer decades these phenomena has been with us - 100 years? Perhaps recognition that we are NOT 'sky-gods' as some appear to think?
EDIT for Tee-emm
A few answers
"If that is true, then why don't we hear a lot more about crashes caused by this illusion that apparently must occur when jet fighters are catapulted from aircraft carriers."
Partly TRAINING and partly not actually fiddling with the stick during the acceleration
"is not the deadly insidious killer we are brought up to believe"
How many possible events will you accept?
It needs to be drummed into pilots' heads right from early days that the instruments are there to be followed. All the accidents quoted are caused because pilots are IGNORING their instruments. It is very rare for an instrument failure to cause a crash on its own, especially with back-up instruments. It is a big lesson and MUST be taught early.
Somatagravic refers to the effects of linear acceleration while somatogyral refers to rotational illusion. Both have been around since aircraft first flew. Both can be overcome by a strong inbuilt discipline to ignore the confusion and fly the instruments. The body is built to perform near sea-level, in air and at walking pace. The moment we try to go away from 'home' is when the trouble starts.
You will NOT crash during rapid acceleration or deceleration IF you fly the correct pitch attitude. You will not enter a 'graveyard spiral' if you fly the correct bank angle. The stimuli are so strong, (and complicated by the brain causing co-temporal eye 'disorientation') that the lesson MUST be given loud and clear at the beginning of life as a pilot. Now we generally have such obvious and compelling attitude displays I find it difficult to believe that they are being ignored. How we combat this apparent 'loss of memory' in aviation training I do not know. Maybe a poster campaign, videos (as the early USAF 'disorientation' film - 'Disoriented? Get on the Gauges' - corny but effective), talking to the 'kids' (and undoubtedly some of the adults too in that 'quiet moment'
), awareness in training personnel of the sheer decades these phenomena has been with us - 100 years? Perhaps recognition that we are NOT 'sky-gods' as some appear to think?EDIT for Tee-emm
A few answers
"If that is true, then why don't we hear a lot more about crashes caused by this illusion that apparently must occur when jet fighters are catapulted from aircraft carriers."
Partly TRAINING and partly not actually fiddling with the stick during the acceleration
"is not the deadly insidious killer we are brought up to believe"
How many possible events will you accept?
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There is another way of staying current on basic flying and that is for all big jet pilots to spend time flying sport planes. I can recall when the RAF pilots flying Hunters and Canberras would spend their leisure time in Chipmunks, just playing or providing cadet eperience flights. I speak as a one-time cadet who thoroughly enjoyed the aerobatics, low-level flying, and chasing one another through clouds. Oh, and being allowed to take over the controls while the pilot kindly cut the engine to see what I would do. He didn't fire the cartridge starter until we were a few feet off landing in a field. Anyway, my point is that small plane flying should be compulsory, preferably with blind flying arrangements in place. They used to have yellow windows and blue goggles so the intruments could be seen but outdoors was all black.
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mike-wsm:
That arrangement indeed was the most effective method of vision restriction in a small airplane, because it didn't create the illusory issues that the hood or foggles create. But, the yellow "glass" lost favor because it made it more difficult for the instructor or safety pilot to spot traffic.
They used to have yellow windows and blue goggles so the intruments could be seen but outdoors was all black.
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BOAC:
Maybe a poster campaign, videos (as the early USAF 'disorientation' film - 'Disoriented? Get on the Gauges' - corny but effective),
Maybe a poster campaign, videos (as the early USAF 'disorientation' film - 'Disoriented? Get on the Gauges' - corny but effective),
I doubt that the PF had time to realize that he was disoriented and acted instinctivly.
Had he been on instruments througout the approach he would not have reacted as he did.
In other words there is a difference between basic instrument skills and recogniing SI, especially during an unexpected transition to instrument conditions.
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mike-wsm:
Quote:
They used to have yellow windows and blue goggles so the intruments could be seen but outdoors was all black.
Quote:
They used to have yellow windows and blue goggles so the intruments could be seen but outdoors was all black.
That arrangement indeed was the most effective method of vision restriction in a small airplane, because it didn't create the illusory issues that the hood or foggles create. But, the yellow "glass" lost favor because it made it more difficult for the instructor or safety pilot to spot traffic.
The trainee might be able to "cheat" be tilting his head enough though.
MurphyWasRight
I doubt that the PF had time to realize that he was disoriented and acted instinctivly.
Had he been on instruments througout the approach he would not have reacted as he did.
In other words there is a difference between basic instrument skills and recogniing SI, especially during an unexpected transition to instrument conditions
I doubt that the PF had time to realize that he was disoriented and acted instinctivly.
Had he been on instruments througout the approach he would not have reacted as he did.
In other words there is a difference between basic instrument skills and recogniing SI, especially during an unexpected transition to instrument conditions
That is basic instrument skill. And if you stick to them, there is no need to recognize SI, because it will not happen or it will not affect you.
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F4 - excuse a correction? "it will happen but you do not let it affect you.". This I think is the key - that so many have either forgotten or never learned.
We are ALWAYS subject to disorientation - it is how we cope with it that matters. You cannot stop the illusion - it is built into our bodies - and it is often a good idea to 'recognise' it.
We are ALWAYS subject to disorientation - it is how we cope with it that matters. You cannot stop the illusion - it is built into our bodies - and it is often a good idea to 'recognise' it.
BOAC
F4 - excuse a correction? "it will happen but you do not let it affect you.". This I think is the key - that so many have either forgotten or never learned.
We are ALWAYS subject to disorientation - it is how we cope with it that matters. You cannot stop the illusion - it is built into our bodies - and it is often a good idea to 'recognise' it.
F4 - excuse a correction? "it will happen but you do not let it affect you.". This I think is the key - that so many have either forgotten or never learned.
We are ALWAYS subject to disorientation - it is how we cope with it that matters. You cannot stop the illusion - it is built into our bodies - and it is often a good idea to 'recognise' it.
Chances to encounter SI had been on every flight in a fast moving jet. We had to do a flight physiological course every three years, which included a big block concerning spatial disorientation and methods to avoid being affected by it. Due to the permanent exposure and training i think , that the recognition process is somewhat automatic or subconscious. Hence my statement.
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F4:
You loose visual, you go to instruments. How much time do you need? If you are unable to do it in 2 seconds, you are in the wrong working place.
That is basic instrument skill. And if you stick to them, there is no need to recognize SI, because it will not happen or it will not affect you.
You loose visual, you go to instruments. How much time do you need? If you are unable to do it in 2 seconds, you are in the wrong working place.
That is basic instrument skill. And if you stick to them, there is no need to recognize SI, because it will not happen or it will not affect you.
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MurphyWasRight
If a trainee does that under the hood, he will find out about "the leans" big time!
The trainee might be able to "cheat" be tilting his head enough though.
MurphyWasRight
Given the conditions is it possible the PF did not immediatly recognize that he had lost visual or expected to be out of the fog within seconds of commencing the go-around so was not fully on instruments?
Given the conditions is it possible the PF did not immediatly recognize that he had lost visual or expected to be out of the fog within seconds of commencing the go-around so was not fully on instruments?
Hell, i had to do manual flying, looking, talking and dicisionmaking all by myself and in a fast aircraft down to minimums of 200 feet ceiling and a visibility of 800 meters. Then it should be manageable in modern aircraft with a functioning PF / PNF crew as well.
Loose visual, go instruments immidiately. Donīt wait on wonders. If you commence approach and dontīt see the Runway at the DH / MDA, go around on instruments. There is no time to loose and no additionals available. At least that kept me living for my pension.
franzl
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For murph's benefit - 95%+ of go-rounds in the simulator and for real will be flown in 'instrument' conditions. In any case, the pitch angle of a g/a in a modern jet g/a is such that judging pitch attitude 'on a horizon' is difficult and imprecise. Therefore it is the norm to transfer to instruments for a g/a.