Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Am I the only one who finds it odd that whenever there is a major news story from that region of the planet, there are nearly always huge delays in getting even a semi-accurate sketch of what happened out to the media?
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PAXboy, also the reason why many in Africa are on the ban list.. Libyan & Afriqiyah should be on that list also... might stop Europeans and European travel reps from using them.
PT6A
PT6A
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Remember the USAF 737 crew that killed Secretary Ron Brown???
That approach involved NDB fore and aft, and a crosswind, excessive workload with a single ADF receiver. The USAF had operational GPS at the time, but no money for avionics upgrades, while spending $Billions on new programs.
GB
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I've taken a 320 into TIP a couple of times. Due to the ATC 'surprise' factor, my briefings seem to take ages whilst we cover all the scenarios that may present themselves e.g. wind favouring 09 so brief for VOR app, on first contact with TIP am informed its ILS 27 then be switched to Locator 09 at 30 miles out!
Buts thats by the by (possibly)
The Locator approach published is extremely poor.
From recent memory (and extensive briefing!!!) it has no platform alt to start from, no dme check alts only timings once you fly over the beacon by which time you are only at 1350' QNH, oh and to add to the mix the descent angle (FPA on the airbus) changes to become steeper once you fly over the beacon.
I can see how such a poorly designed approach down to minimums could end in tragedy.
Buts thats by the by (possibly)
The Locator approach published is extremely poor.
From recent memory (and extensive briefing!!!) it has no platform alt to start from, no dme check alts only timings once you fly over the beacon by which time you are only at 1350' QNH, oh and to add to the mix the descent angle (FPA on the airbus) changes to become steeper once you fly over the beacon.
I can see how such a poorly designed approach down to minimums could end in tragedy.
The Cooler King
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This whole commentary on Africa being required to meet ICAO standards is nothing but a demonstration of complete naivety when it comes to knowing the region.
Yes, we can all babble on about what they should be doing and the banning and the chastising but if you haven't been out to Africa or to its neighbours in the Middle East then you are not qualified to pass comment nor judgment about how things are done here.
The governments are structured differently, officials are either corrupt, inept or both - and those who are trying to do things by the book are blocked from all sides due to kickbacks, lack of funding and quite commonly - a laid-back "maņana" attitude that is prevalent everywhere.
It's a mix of culture and education that causes it.
I managed to stay out of this thread for a whole six pages having now learned to ignore the utter hogwash that gets written between the races to see who gets to post the METAR. TAF or registration first, but couldn't hold my tongue once folks start treating Africa as "just like Europe".
Naive and inexperienced. Don't talk rubbish about things you know nothing about.
Yes, we can all babble on about what they should be doing and the banning and the chastising but if you haven't been out to Africa or to its neighbours in the Middle East then you are not qualified to pass comment nor judgment about how things are done here.
The governments are structured differently, officials are either corrupt, inept or both - and those who are trying to do things by the book are blocked from all sides due to kickbacks, lack of funding and quite commonly - a laid-back "maņana" attitude that is prevalent everywhere.
It's a mix of culture and education that causes it.
I managed to stay out of this thread for a whole six pages having now learned to ignore the utter hogwash that gets written between the races to see who gets to post the METAR. TAF or registration first, but couldn't hold my tongue once folks start treating Africa as "just like Europe".
Naive and inexperienced. Don't talk rubbish about things you know nothing about.
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when in doubt: go around
Can't tell you the number of fails the expat tre's give on the sims and the company argued that the instructors were too tough.
Lack of tech background,skills and an astonishing self confidence, I'm afraid this will be the result of the investigation.
I will never forget this sentence, you might be 100% right but here you are in Libya and things goes as we say.
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PT6A, (and others calling for Africa to 'step-up')
While I agree with you the reality is that there is a blase' attitude in Africa, all centres are fraught with technical issues and underfunded and poorly trained staff in all areas.
This means that, as DownIn3Greens says, you have to up your game as PIC. You've GOT to be prepared for current and well aware of what is going on.
Yes it is no excuse that it is Africa but the fact it, this is the environment and everyone has got to do what they have to, to be able to get home in one piece. What are you going to do? Stop all flights in Africa? Not going to happen I am afraid.
There is not enough money in Africa, it is being bled of it's assets and the money is not reinvested, but squandered by it's illustrious leaders e.g. Mugabe.
While I agree with you the reality is that there is a blase' attitude in Africa, all centres are fraught with technical issues and underfunded and poorly trained staff in all areas.
This means that, as DownIn3Greens says, you have to up your game as PIC. You've GOT to be prepared for current and well aware of what is going on.
Yes it is no excuse that it is Africa but the fact it, this is the environment and everyone has got to do what they have to, to be able to get home in one piece. What are you going to do? Stop all flights in Africa? Not going to happen I am afraid.
There is not enough money in Africa, it is being bled of it's assets and the money is not reinvested, but squandered by it's illustrious leaders e.g. Mugabe.
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Airbus does have a current OEB in effect which states the Flight Director bars may not engage in go-around mode on application of TOGA power. If you do not take appropriate measures, you are just going to fly faster into the ground. And this guy was dealing with a very lightweight 330 (100 pax), she is a beast.
I must also add that this condition could occur only with a fully automatic non precision approach. However a previous poster states that this is not SOP at Afriqiyah.
I must also add that this condition could occur only with a fully automatic non precision approach. However a previous poster states that this is not SOP at Afriqiyah.
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ATIS - that OEB is there - at least we had it on the 320 but now removed.
regarding the conditions in Libya - we fly there very often. Runway 27 is preferred.
Rwy 09 is a dual locator approach, when most new airbuses only have one ADF reciever!
Hence as someone correctly said, its 99% of the time a visual approach without any problems.
If on that 1% you also get RWY09 with visibility at minima, then it becomes a death trap, especially if the crew is not up to standard.
God bless their souls.
regarding the conditions in Libya - we fly there very often. Runway 27 is preferred.
Rwy 09 is a dual locator approach, when most new airbuses only have one ADF reciever!
Hence as someone correctly said, its 99% of the time a visual approach without any problems.
If on that 1% you also get RWY09 with visibility at minima, then it becomes a death trap, especially if the crew is not up to standard.
God bless their souls.
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what astonished me usually the most is that people put everybody in the word africa. This constinent is so big and there are so many differences from north to south. You cannot just make a judgement on all africa. Some countries are doing fairly well as far as management of aviation is concerned some other are very far behind.
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SoundBarrier, while there might not be enough money in Africa, there sure is in Libya.
No costs were spared even within Afriqiyah but you can't buy skills, understanding and attitude.
I can confirm Giggey's training experience with Libyan pilots. If after way too many sessions, using the best programs available, you have to fail them for the X-th time they'll just claim you're a bad instructor.
No costs were spared even within Afriqiyah but you can't buy skills, understanding and attitude.
I can confirm Giggey's training experience with Libyan pilots. If after way too many sessions, using the best programs available, you have to fail them for the X-th time they'll just claim you're a bad instructor.
Guest
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Greybeard:
The aircraft also had a single INS. The crew was applying wind drift in the wrong direction. Had they included the INS winds in their scan they would have had the information to flag out their bad mistake.
Also, neither the crew nor their USAF handlers understood that two ADF receivers were implicitly required for the procedure being used. A good Russian pilot would have "lockstepped" two ADFs and had a solid track to the runway.
Finally, there was a question about whether the final approach segment obstacle clearance areas complied with PANS-OPS since the procedure was not annoted with a requirement to receive both locator beacons throughout the final approach segment. That one was never clearly answered.
Nonetheless, the INS wind information was being displayed and could have easily to saved the day.
Also, they could have retuned to the airport locator NDB mid-final and have simply homed to that beacon, which would have been in time to save the day. That would have presupposed they were timing the approach, though, which is doubtful.
From what I remember, the T-43A (737-200) fleet were bought for pilot training in the 1970s. As such, they were equipped with Tacan, but only a single obsolescent continuously tuned (Collins DF-203) ADF receiver. It was many years later they were pressed into executive transport.
That approach involved NDB fore and aft, and a crosswind, excessive workload with a single ADF receiver. The USAF had operational GPS at the time, but no money for avionics upgrades, while spending $Billions on new programs.
That approach involved NDB fore and aft, and a crosswind, excessive workload with a single ADF receiver. The USAF had operational GPS at the time, but no money for avionics upgrades, while spending $Billions on new programs.
Also, neither the crew nor their USAF handlers understood that two ADF receivers were implicitly required for the procedure being used. A good Russian pilot would have "lockstepped" two ADFs and had a solid track to the runway.
Finally, there was a question about whether the final approach segment obstacle clearance areas complied with PANS-OPS since the procedure was not annoted with a requirement to receive both locator beacons throughout the final approach segment. That one was never clearly answered.
Nonetheless, the INS wind information was being displayed and could have easily to saved the day.
Also, they could have retuned to the airport locator NDB mid-final and have simply homed to that beacon, which would have been in time to save the day. That would have presupposed they were timing the approach, though, which is doubtful.
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I suggest you stick to your interests and not make a bloody fool of yourself on a professional website when you haven't got a clue what you are talking about!
Trash du Blanc
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It's been awhile, but I seem to remember:
- USAF rules forbade tuning navaids after crossing FAF,
- Terrain clearance was inadequate by 400' using PANS-OPS,
- The crew was at MDA and 11 degrees off course when they hit,
- Another flight crew was on the ground talking to them and assured them they were going to break out before MAP.
...So yeah, pilot error and all that, but eleven degrees on an ADF approach.....
- USAF rules forbade tuning navaids after crossing FAF,
- Terrain clearance was inadequate by 400' using PANS-OPS,
- The crew was at MDA and 11 degrees off course when they hit,
- Another flight crew was on the ground talking to them and assured them they were going to break out before MAP.
...So yeah, pilot error and all that, but eleven degrees on an ADF approach.....
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Soundbarrier,
I agree parts of Africa are way behind, Libya being one of them.
The problem is, everything is behind including their CAA. This means that the airlines are doing whatever they want - as another poster has stated the airline in question has had pilots failed by Expat TRI/TRE only to find out the decision has been reversed by a "local TRE" at the behest of the company.
The end result is that you have people who dont know what they are doing, flying in an environment that sets them up to fail, in an airline that only brings out the books and SMS system when overseas inspections are taking place.
You have brand new Airbus aircraft being operated in, what amounts to no more than a cowboy bush operation - sadly that a newly painted and shiny jet fools many people into thinking that this is a safe "European type operation". It is not... far from it.
Until the larger picture in Libya changes, put that Libyan pride aside and put the best people in the flight deck - irrespective of their nationality.
On the ground get good people that actually know the aircraft and want to work... people who bother to take their tools to SA and not just sit there for weeks on end collecting the money and not looking after the aircraft.
People who know how to change a wheel... and not try and say its fine to fly the aircraft with huge cuts running through the sidewall... people who will not try and tell a native English speaker the MEL says something else and it is ok to fly... when it quite clearly is not.
I know there are many problems in Africa (or parts of it) I have seen them first hand... but this is NO excuse for a loss of life... It may or may not have played a part in this accident.
However it has in many others and left unchecked will continue to do so... So please don't use this is Africa as an excuse it just wont wash with me.
PT6A
I agree parts of Africa are way behind, Libya being one of them.
The problem is, everything is behind including their CAA. This means that the airlines are doing whatever they want - as another poster has stated the airline in question has had pilots failed by Expat TRI/TRE only to find out the decision has been reversed by a "local TRE" at the behest of the company.
The end result is that you have people who dont know what they are doing, flying in an environment that sets them up to fail, in an airline that only brings out the books and SMS system when overseas inspections are taking place.
You have brand new Airbus aircraft being operated in, what amounts to no more than a cowboy bush operation - sadly that a newly painted and shiny jet fools many people into thinking that this is a safe "European type operation". It is not... far from it.
Until the larger picture in Libya changes, put that Libyan pride aside and put the best people in the flight deck - irrespective of their nationality.
On the ground get good people that actually know the aircraft and want to work... people who bother to take their tools to SA and not just sit there for weeks on end collecting the money and not looking after the aircraft.
People who know how to change a wheel... and not try and say its fine to fly the aircraft with huge cuts running through the sidewall... people who will not try and tell a native English speaker the MEL says something else and it is ok to fly... when it quite clearly is not.
I know there are many problems in Africa (or parts of it) I have seen them first hand... but this is NO excuse for a loss of life... It may or may not have played a part in this accident.
However it has in many others and left unchecked will continue to do so... So please don't use this is Africa as an excuse it just wont wash with me.
PT6A
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Hi,
Will keep it simple
For the moment .. I will stick with the best rumour..
The pilot declared some problems when aproaching and a explosion (or fire) occured just before the plane can reach the runway
Will keep it simple
For the moment .. I will stick with the best rumour..
The pilot declared some problems when aproaching and a explosion (or fire) occured just before the plane can reach the runway
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OEB
OEB 188/2
One Operator reported a case where the flight crew initiated a Go Around slightly below the Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA), and the aircraft didnot pitch up as expected. The flight crew performed a non precision approach (a VORDME approach) using the FINAL APP managed guidance mode with the AP1 (Autopilot) engaged during the final approach. This OEB is issued to provide flight crews with an operational procedure to avoid such aircraft behavior. The operational procedure provided in this OEB applies to all Non Precision Approaches, for both conventional approaches and RNAV approaches, flown in FINAL APP managed guidance mode.
This information was taken from the Tech Log forum.
Is this OEB still active?
Does it apply to the A330? Pure curiosity
One Operator reported a case where the flight crew initiated a Go Around slightly below the Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA), and the aircraft didnot pitch up as expected. The flight crew performed a non precision approach (a VORDME approach) using the FINAL APP managed guidance mode with the AP1 (Autopilot) engaged during the final approach. This OEB is issued to provide flight crews with an operational procedure to avoid such aircraft behavior. The operational procedure provided in this OEB applies to all Non Precision Approaches, for both conventional approaches and RNAV approaches, flown in FINAL APP managed guidance mode.
This information was taken from the Tech Log forum.
Is this OEB still active?
Does it apply to the A330? Pure curiosity
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The accident is receiving a lot of press coverage in The Netherlands due to the high number of Dutch victims.
Latest news reports mention conditions of 'poor visibility due to low hanging cloud' at the time of the crash:
De oorzaak van de crash is nog onbekend. De Libische autoriteiten sloten kort na de ramp uit dat het om een terroristische daad gaat. Volgens het Belgische meteorologische instituut KMI hing er op het moment van de vliegtuigcrash in Libië geen as van de IJslandse vulkaan boven Tripoli. Wel was er sprake van slecht zicht door laaghangende wolken.
Onduidelijkheid over aantal dode Nederlanders | nu.nl/buitenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl
Latest news reports mention conditions of 'poor visibility due to low hanging cloud' at the time of the crash:
De oorzaak van de crash is nog onbekend. De Libische autoriteiten sloten kort na de ramp uit dat het om een terroristische daad gaat. Volgens het Belgische meteorologische instituut KMI hing er op het moment van de vliegtuigcrash in Libië geen as van de IJslandse vulkaan boven Tripoli. Wel was er sprake van slecht zicht door laaghangende wolken.
Onduidelijkheid over aantal dode Nederlanders | nu.nl/buitenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl
Last edited by STC-8; 12th May 2010 at 21:36. Reason: added quotation marks
The thread seems to be deteriorating into a lot of uninformed nonsense, as someone well pointed out unless you have lived and worked there for an extended time, please do not dig the hole you're in any deeper. That being said, I believe including Libya with the rest of Africa would be a grave insult to most other African countries...
I sense I will get a few to second... ?
I sense I will get a few to second... ?