Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Quote: "ATC services...poor, at best"
Wrong.
ATC Tripoli are highly professional, many of whom have been trained in UK.
As with the Polish presidential accident, there was a shameful lack of precision nav aids.
In the 21st Century it is unforgivable that accidents like this should continue to happen. Especially at a capital city international airport due to inadequate landing aids.
Wrong.
ATC Tripoli are highly professional, many of whom have been trained in UK.
As with the Polish presidential accident, there was a shameful lack of precision nav aids.
In the 21st Century it is unforgivable that accidents like this should continue to happen. Especially at a capital city international airport due to inadequate landing aids.
Originally Posted by Frosch
The Swiss ?
That being said, suggest we move back to the topic.
If 09 was indeed in use, the approach would have been made straight towards the rising sun. No meaningful terrain on either end of the runway, perfectly flat country within 5-10m of runway elevation in both directions for at least twice runway length.
qsyenroute: accidents during non-precision approaches don't happen because of the lack of precision navaids. They happen because time after time someone thinks that those minimums are just a suggestion, and they can go just a bit lower... Like 101... (and quite possibly this one)
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qsyenroute, ATC in Tripoli is shocking.
Not sure when the last time you flew there?
I have evidence (CVR Tape) to back this up... It is something that was already under investigation by EASA.
Then there is the issue of the airfield.... covered in FOD and the runway having many large holes in it.
ATC refuse to close the runway even when metal and rocks reported on the runway.
The place is / was an accident waiting to happen.
PT6A
Not sure when the last time you flew there?
I have evidence (CVR Tape) to back this up... It is something that was already under investigation by EASA.
Then there is the issue of the airfield.... covered in FOD and the runway having many large holes in it.
ATC refuse to close the runway even when metal and rocks reported on the runway.
The place is / was an accident waiting to happen.
PT6A
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PT6A I second that.
Although the younger generation has indeed been trained in UK (Bristol) they have little experience and the older generation ATC controllers don't seem to improve. I'm talking from years of experience flying in Libya myself up till now...
Although the younger generation has indeed been trained in UK (Bristol) they have little experience and the older generation ATC controllers don't seem to improve. I'm talking from years of experience flying in Libya myself up till now...
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Hi,
Sad.
Methink BEA will recruit as they are also in charge for this one .....
At least the runway itself is not involved (as we see in the video .. unless it's also trees on runway in addition of holes !!!)
Exactly it was to write instead :
Most likely the Westerners will now blame non Westerners ,preferably Lybians for this disaster (they blame them already as I read in some messages above)
Sad.
Methink BEA will recruit as they are also in charge for this one .....
Then there is the issue of the airfield.... covered in FOD and the runway having many large holes in it.
WASP9 wrote: Quote:
Most likely the Libyans will now blame non Libyans, preferably Westerners, for this disaster.
I think this is a pretty inappropriate comment to make.
Most likely the Libyans will now blame non Libyans, preferably Westerners, for this disaster.
I think this is a pretty inappropriate comment to make.
Most likely the Westerners will now blame non Westerners ,preferably Lybians for this disaster (they blame them already as I read in some messages above)
Last edited by jcjeant; 12th May 2010 at 10:02.
Looking at the photos, it is striking how the wreckage is completely fragmented, indicating a high energy impact rather than the slow speed-low angle one would expect on an approach/go around accident. Judging by the damage to the tip of the tailfin, the whole tail structure tumbed over at least once. In my read, the aircraft cartwheeled after a wingtip hit the ground in a high bank attitude.
The small mosque in the background on this photo is here, placing the accident site about 1000m before threshold and about 200m to the rigth of 09 centerline (consistent with the position of the a/c taking off in the background on the video, if 27 was used for t/o).
The small mosque in the background on this photo is here, placing the accident site about 1000m before threshold and about 200m to the rigth of 09 centerline (consistent with the position of the a/c taking off in the background on the video, if 27 was used for t/o).
Last edited by andrasz; 12th May 2010 at 10:24.
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I cannot speculate on the cause of this tragic accident.
I have operated a 330 into Tripoli in the past and the aircraft intercepted a false localizer. Manual intervention and a visual approach got us down. This was "apparantly" a not uncomman occurance.
I have operated a 330 into Tripoli in the past and the aircraft intercepted a false localizer. Manual intervention and a visual approach got us down. This was "apparantly" a not uncomman occurance.
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380..
That is correct! for 27 of course.
We even have it on our company approach charts as it is so common!
More than once I have been cleared for a locator approach at the airport with not a single NDB station working!
I hope as part of the accident investigation the other problems will come to light and be investigated.
PT6A
That is correct! for 27 of course.
We even have it on our company approach charts as it is so common!
More than once I have been cleared for a locator approach at the airport with not a single NDB station working!
I hope as part of the accident investigation the other problems will come to light and be investigated.
PT6A
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Anyone has any degree of certainty if it was on the approach path to Rwy 09 that this accident occured?
Looking at the weather info at the time of the accident it looks like a better judgement would be to go for Rwy 27. At that time of the day if you approach for Rwy 09 you would most likely be head-on to the rising sun and that, together with the haizy visibility you can find at this time of the year in TIP, makes the approaches to R09 kind of bilnd approaches...
About the comments regarding ATC services in Libya those who say that they are pretty go are not from this world or have never flown to TIP in recent years. There are some (few) ATC that can provide an average service and there are others (the majority) that sound like someone who has no clue about what they are doing. Still, it doesn't look like an accident directly connected to that...
Let's see what comes out of the accident investigation.
RIP.
Looking at the weather info at the time of the accident it looks like a better judgement would be to go for Rwy 27. At that time of the day if you approach for Rwy 09 you would most likely be head-on to the rising sun and that, together with the haizy visibility you can find at this time of the year in TIP, makes the approaches to R09 kind of bilnd approaches...
About the comments regarding ATC services in Libya those who say that they are pretty go are not from this world or have never flown to TIP in recent years. There are some (few) ATC that can provide an average service and there are others (the majority) that sound like someone who has no clue about what they are doing. Still, it doesn't look like an accident directly connected to that...
Let's see what comes out of the accident investigation.
RIP.
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This NOTAM has been in force for a while now also:
A0033/10 NOTAMR A0032/10
Q) HLLL/QNVLF/IV/BO/AE/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1002211047 C) 1005151030
E) TRIPOLI VOR TPI FREQ 114.5 MHZ INTERFERENCE FROM SIGNAL BEING EXPERIENCED DURING CURRENT AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT WORK (VOR SHOULD BE USED WITH CAUTION)
Yet ATC on several occasions have tried to clear us for a VOR APP even though the needle is swinging all over the place - everytime the crane moves!.
PT6A
A0033/10 NOTAMR A0032/10
Q) HLLL/QNVLF/IV/BO/AE/000/999/
A) HLLT B) 1002211047 C) 1005151030
E) TRIPOLI VOR TPI FREQ 114.5 MHZ INTERFERENCE FROM SIGNAL BEING EXPERIENCED DURING CURRENT AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT WORK (VOR SHOULD BE USED WITH CAUTION)
Yet ATC on several occasions have tried to clear us for a VOR APP even though the needle is swinging all over the place - everytime the crane moves!.
PT6A
Originally Posted by C212-100
Anyone has any degree of certainty if it was on the approach path to Rwy 09 that this accident occured?
Originally Posted by andrasz
The small mosque in the background on this photo is here, placing the accident site about 1000-1500m before threshold and about 200m to the rigth of 09 centerline
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I'd have to initially agree with the cartwheel theory from Andrasz, by the fact that the remains of the tail section are facing 180 degrees to where you would expect them to be, i.e. they are facing away from runway 09 rather than facing it. The mosque should be on the starboard side of the airframe, not port side.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I remember 09 about 8 years back, all the navaids U/S except a threshold low power NDB with no published approach - and was cleared for 'that approach'?
Luckily it was afternoon and 4km.
Quite amazing if anyone survived.
Luckily it was afternoon and 4km.
Quite amazing if anyone survived.
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Veel doden bij vliegtuigcrash - Buitenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [buitenland]
Dutch news agency reports one survivor - a 9 year old Dutch boy in fair condition at hospital. 61 Dutch nationals traveling as part of an organized tour group perished. Dutch ministry of foreign affairs has not confirmed these figures. Unconfirmed reports of some sort of technical problem shortly before landing.
Terrorism ruled out as factor. Local weather conditions were reported as being good. 93 passengers & 11 crew.
Dutch news agency reports one survivor - a 9 year old Dutch boy in fair condition at hospital. 61 Dutch nationals traveling as part of an organized tour group perished. Dutch ministry of foreign affairs has not confirmed these figures. Unconfirmed reports of some sort of technical problem shortly before landing.
Terrorism ruled out as factor. Local weather conditions were reported as being good. 93 passengers & 11 crew.
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Flying a non precision approach in real IMC conditions with unreliable needles is definitely dangerous.
The incredible thing is that, in 2010, we still tend to trust more the raw data needles moving all over the places instead of the map.
On an airplane like this one! With the best technology and satellites available!
Giving priority to raw data is still mandatory in many companies! Selecting rose displays like 50 years ago!
This is the result!
The incredible thing is that, in 2010, we still tend to trust more the raw data needles moving all over the places instead of the map.
On an airplane like this one! With the best technology and satellites available!
Giving priority to raw data is still mandatory in many companies! Selecting rose displays like 50 years ago!
This is the result!
Summing up, a reasonably clear picture of WHAT seems to be emerging (no intention to speculate on WHY):
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30 HL7328 Tripoli
ASN Aircraft accident de Havilland DH-106 Comet 4C SU-ALC Tripoli International Airport (TIP)
ASN Aircraft accident Tupolev 104A OK-NDD Tripoli
- Approach was made at dawn, straight towards the rising sun (sea level sunrise 6:11LT)
- Conditions were hazy, reported visibility on ground ~5000m, however in sunlit haze no more than ~2000m
- Depending on actual time of accident (btw. 6:00-6:10LT) the aircraft made some or all of the approach in sunlight, possibly descending into earth shadow shortly before hiting the ground.
- Impact position about 1.5km from threshold, wreckage field slightly right of centerline, in line with far end of approach lights.
- Very fragmented wreckage suggests impact in unusual attitude, a wings level low descent approach speed impact on flat terrain with hardly any meaningful obstacles would not have resulted in such disintegration.
- Based on above a likely scenario a sharp low level corrective bank when seeing approach lights resulting in a wingtip clipping ground (or buildings).
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30 HL7328 Tripoli
ASN Aircraft accident de Havilland DH-106 Comet 4C SU-ALC Tripoli International Airport (TIP)
ASN Aircraft accident Tupolev 104A OK-NDD Tripoli
Last edited by andrasz; 12th May 2010 at 11:34.