Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards
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If the main database stands as the biggest threat to freedoms, the war was lost long ago. It's already here, and you are in it.
The RFID proponents love to brag about 25 foot detection range, but the truth even they don't know is that these tags can be activated, downloaded, and continuously monitored via satellite. What do you think about that, the possibility of being monitored 24/7 from space (if the various intelligence agencies so choose)?
If you can read the label on a golf ball from space, in any weather, you can hear a microwatt burst from an RFID chip. Do you think the GPS system was put in place so you could have a cool moving map in your auto?
The RFID proponents love to brag about 25 foot detection range, but the truth even they don't know is that these tags can be activated, downloaded, and continuously monitored via satellite. What do you think about that, the possibility of being monitored 24/7 from space (if the various intelligence agencies so choose)?
If you can read the label on a golf ball from space, in any weather, you can hear a microwatt burst from an RFID chip. Do you think the GPS system was put in place so you could have a cool moving map in your auto?
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md80fanatic:
If you can read the label on a golf ball from space, in any weather, you can hear a microwatt burst from an RFID chip. Do you think the GPS system was put in place so you could have a cool moving map in your auto?
If you can read the label on a golf ball from space, in any weather, you can hear a microwatt burst from an RFID chip. Do you think the GPS system was put in place so you could have a cool moving map in your auto?
By passing an RFID chip over a card reader you are also passing it over a small induction loop that temporarily gives the small charge required for the transmission of the information. There are no batteries involved so there is no capability for continuous or intermittent transmission as speculated.
Last edited by Jofm5; 18th Feb 2009 at 00:56. Reason: correction
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No one on here will do anything other than complain on here, and Balpa will make this token effort in order to get more members then quietly do as they are told and drop it like they do everything else
Reluctantly I find myself agreeing with 411A (again)
will make this token effort in order to get more members then quietly do as they are told and drop it like they do everything elseReluctantly I find myself agreeing with 411A (again)
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The chip cannot tell, nor does it care, from what source the excitation signal originates from, whether it be a scanner on the ground, or a focussed beam from a blimp, or even a satellite. You could illuminate an entire city or country, and then pinpoint your personal ID amongst the masses. As long as the ID card's antenna is sufficiently illuminated, it has the power to transmit it's code....often (I say in real time).
RF in the direction of space is quite efficient, and can be accomplished with a fraction of a watt using a horrendous 3 inch rubber aerial (rubber ducky) on a walkie-talkie. 12 years ago, in the first year I had a Ham radio license, I was too nervous to talk to the Space Shuttle pilots....but my friend did, with a milliwatt talkie using a crappy rubber duck. Also, we were indoors. A great starting spark into the hobby.
ID chips transmit with really low power, but it's a digital transmission and VERY resitant to atmospheric degredation. A half decent antenna (the size of a DishTV dish) in orbit could easily function as both an illuminator/receiver, down to an individual ID card if necessary.
I have no proof of course, but it -has- to be possible by simple common-sense extrapolation. Other tasks of equal and related difficulty (satellite digital and RF) have been done for decades, nothing new.
The ID card devices are sold as a convenience, not needing to remove it, swipe it, display it to officers, to be effective. Perhaps I have been asleep, but when did swiping a ID/credit card become such an imposition that we are searching for alternatives at any cost?
You are all correct, you can securely, confidently identify yourselves with any number of currently held documents, and a radio ID will not make you more secure.....so why do it?
Answer: Because you cannot be tracked 24/7, from space, with a magnetic swipe card.
RF in the direction of space is quite efficient, and can be accomplished with a fraction of a watt using a horrendous 3 inch rubber aerial (rubber ducky) on a walkie-talkie. 12 years ago, in the first year I had a Ham radio license, I was too nervous to talk to the Space Shuttle pilots....but my friend did, with a milliwatt talkie using a crappy rubber duck. Also, we were indoors. A great starting spark into the hobby.
ID chips transmit with really low power, but it's a digital transmission and VERY resitant to atmospheric degredation. A half decent antenna (the size of a DishTV dish) in orbit could easily function as both an illuminator/receiver, down to an individual ID card if necessary.
I have no proof of course, but it -has- to be possible by simple common-sense extrapolation. Other tasks of equal and related difficulty (satellite digital and RF) have been done for decades, nothing new.
The ID card devices are sold as a convenience, not needing to remove it, swipe it, display it to officers, to be effective. Perhaps I have been asleep, but when did swiping a ID/credit card become such an imposition that we are searching for alternatives at any cost?
You are all correct, you can securely, confidently identify yourselves with any number of currently held documents, and a radio ID will not make you more secure.....so why do it?
Answer: Because you cannot be tracked 24/7, from space, with a magnetic swipe card.
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Reluctantly I find myself agreeing with 411A (again)
I can agree perhaps with some Brit pilots that they don't want this national ID card business....sadly, their concerns are to be cast amongst the winds...it is a done deal, like it or not.
And, many won't, I'm sure.
Get used to it.
YOUR government is IN control....
Bletchley Park, anyone?
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Gentlemen
I can understand the Yank not understanding....They understand little and in general think the State can do not wrong...The one thing a NID will not cure is illegal immigration. By it's very nature it is 'Illegal' as it is in every other country with or without ID. So it won't cure their Mexican problem.....
However, It does not matter what is in place now. There is nothing to say it can't be changed by a society slowly waking up to the State.
Biometric chips have already been cloned, So no matter how technical some want to make the argument, they are not going to convince me.
This Government have even thought ahead to people resisting the fines that will be levied for not changing (constantly) information held about them. They quietly changed the rules on Bailiffs to allow them to force entry. Something that has not been allowed for 400 years.
Despite EU legislation I do not think the NID is inevitable. My very nature does not allow me to be so defeatist.
Once again, I admire BALPA and the Pilots willing and able to resist the further creep of the Police state.
I can understand the Yank not understanding....They understand little and in general think the State can do not wrong...The one thing a NID will not cure is illegal immigration. By it's very nature it is 'Illegal' as it is in every other country with or without ID. So it won't cure their Mexican problem.....
However, It does not matter what is in place now. There is nothing to say it can't be changed by a society slowly waking up to the State.
Biometric chips have already been cloned, So no matter how technical some want to make the argument, they are not going to convince me.
This Government have even thought ahead to people resisting the fines that will be levied for not changing (constantly) information held about them. They quietly changed the rules on Bailiffs to allow them to force entry. Something that has not been allowed for 400 years.
Despite EU legislation I do not think the NID is inevitable. My very nature does not allow me to be so defeatist.
Once again, I admire BALPA and the Pilots willing and able to resist the further creep of the Police state.
411A wrote:
Don't forget the Yanks have the Patriot Act and dissent is frowned upon.
sadly, their concerns are to be cast amongst the winds...it is a done deal, like it or not
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No one on here will do anything other than complain on here, and Balpa will make this token effort in order to get more members then quietly do as they are told and drop it like they do everything else
If the second part is too, then BALPA deserve to loose their entire membership, as do the majority of unions that have no intention of opposing the Government over this.
I do wonder what all those who object to BALPA will be doing to oppose the ID card scheme. Complaining on here, moaning about BALPA, and then going along with it I suspect.
Sorry, PilotBear, nothing personal but I've got a bit fed up over the years of listening to people in the crewroom moaning about "the cr@p payrise BALPA got for us this year", knowing full well that they got their payrise on the back of what BALPA have done when they're too tight to pay the subs themselves.
BALPA ain't perfect, but it seems they're all we've got on this.
And no, I'm not a BALPA officer.
oap
(Lights blue touch paper and retires)
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Quote:
YOUR government is IN control....
I think I'd have fewer concerns if they WERE, but they have displayed levels of incompetence far in advance of even the most optimistic of observers.
The government has even admitted that they have (unknowingly . . .) employed 'illegals' in the SECURITY business!
It seems our security clearances are most often predicated on the incumbent actually telling the authorities that they are unsavoury characters - obviously more efficient that way.
In the military this was known as Negative Vetting.
YOUR government is IN control....
I think I'd have fewer concerns if they WERE, but they have displayed levels of incompetence far in advance of even the most optimistic of observers.
The government has even admitted that they have (unknowingly . . .) employed 'illegals' in the SECURITY business!
It seems our security clearances are most often predicated on the incumbent actually telling the authorities that they are unsavoury characters - obviously more efficient that way.
In the military this was known as Negative Vetting.
Max Angle
ROFLMAO x 2, nee times bloody 100!
Nowhere in Europe is your average citizen surrounded by more rules, regulations, surveillance, restrictions, mandatory this, compulsory that than in the UK. That statement has got to take the biscuit as the most misleading of the year 2009, which admittedly is still young.
But you guys hold on to your notion that the UK state is subservient to it's citizens, and if refusing to have an ID card makes you feel all fluffy and warm, more power to your elbow. Put, please, find a more solid argument than that one.
... Most of us in the UK want to keep the government at arms length and preserve the concept that the state is subservient to the people ...
Nowhere in Europe is your average citizen surrounded by more rules, regulations, surveillance, restrictions, mandatory this, compulsory that than in the UK. That statement has got to take the biscuit as the most misleading of the year 2009, which admittedly is still young.
But you guys hold on to your notion that the UK state is subservient to it's citizens, and if refusing to have an ID card makes you feel all fluffy and warm, more power to your elbow. Put, please, find a more solid argument than that one.
Which is precisely why I said that relationship is hugely strained in the UK at the moment. All the things you have mentioned have increased massivley in the UK in the last 10 years but it wasn't always like that and most of us see the ID card scheme as the last straw and a line in the sand that we don't want crossed. In the UK now I don't think the state is subservient to the people any more but at the moment we have not gone too far down the road that things can't be changed, getting Brown and Co. out of power would be a good first step, the State has become too large and too intrusive during the Labour parties time in power and we need a new government rapidly.
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ID cards
The response from GB. What a load of Bo**ocks
Government’s response
We are committed to working with the aviation industry to develop an identity card scheme for airside workers which helps maintain public confidence in the security of our airports and deliver greater convenience for employers in fulfilling their legal obligations. We have consulted extensively with the aviation sector to develop and refine our proposals, holding over 50 meetings with aviation stakeholders. We will continue to work closely with the industry going forward.
The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) will begin to issue the first identity cards to airport staff working in the secure airside area from this year. However, these people will not be required to carry the cards with them – indeed, legislation specifically excludes any requirement to do so.
We acknowledge that the aviation industry is already taking action to ensure the integrity of the checks and systems that it has in place, in order to ensure the highest levels of security for airside personnel, as well as for the travelling public. Identity cards will give employers greater assurance of the identity of their employees, allowing them to discharge their legal responsibilities and reduce their exposure to threats. Over time, we want to work with employers to ensure that we can maximise the efficiency of the regulatory regime on them to keep the cost of conducting employee checks to a minimum.
No one can say that identity cards or any other single measure will prevent terrorism, but there can be no doubt that identity cards will help our ability to combat terrorism, and the police and security services support this view. The use of facial and fingerprint biometrics will link individuals securely to a single identity and so will help the police and the security services identify people more reliably. At the same time they will help in disrupting terrorist activity by making it more difficult for potential terrorists to use false or multiple identities. Furthermore, identity cards for foreign nationals will build on existing technology in place to protect the UK from illegal immigration including fingerprint visa checks abroad, which have already identified over 20,000 immigration offenders, and the introduction of electronic border checks.
Further Information
Government’s response
We are committed to working with the aviation industry to develop an identity card scheme for airside workers which helps maintain public confidence in the security of our airports and deliver greater convenience for employers in fulfilling their legal obligations. We have consulted extensively with the aviation sector to develop and refine our proposals, holding over 50 meetings with aviation stakeholders. We will continue to work closely with the industry going forward.
The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) will begin to issue the first identity cards to airport staff working in the secure airside area from this year. However, these people will not be required to carry the cards with them – indeed, legislation specifically excludes any requirement to do so.
We acknowledge that the aviation industry is already taking action to ensure the integrity of the checks and systems that it has in place, in order to ensure the highest levels of security for airside personnel, as well as for the travelling public. Identity cards will give employers greater assurance of the identity of their employees, allowing them to discharge their legal responsibilities and reduce their exposure to threats. Over time, we want to work with employers to ensure that we can maximise the efficiency of the regulatory regime on them to keep the cost of conducting employee checks to a minimum.
No one can say that identity cards or any other single measure will prevent terrorism, but there can be no doubt that identity cards will help our ability to combat terrorism, and the police and security services support this view. The use of facial and fingerprint biometrics will link individuals securely to a single identity and so will help the police and the security services identify people more reliably. At the same time they will help in disrupting terrorist activity by making it more difficult for potential terrorists to use false or multiple identities. Furthermore, identity cards for foreign nationals will build on existing technology in place to protect the UK from illegal immigration including fingerprint visa checks abroad, which have already identified over 20,000 immigration offenders, and the introduction of electronic border checks.
Further Information
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You beat me to it.....Gordon's BS answer!!! Gawd elp us though glad to see the Leadership positioning to remove the chap with one eye...
Number10.gov.uk Airsideid - epetition response
Number10.gov.uk Airsideid - epetition response
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I just received the same email. My favourite part:
(My bold).
So it's either or 
....so, when do you plan to make it law that they do have to be carried.
Originally Posted by The Guvmint
The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) will begin to issue the first identity cards to airport staff working in the secure airside area from this year. However, these people will not be required to carry the cards with them – indeed, legislation specifically excludes any requirement to do so.
So it's either
or ....so, when do you plan to make it law that they do have to be carried.
Last edited by Flintstone; 20th Feb 2009 at 13:07. Reason: Coding.
It's precisely this sort of drivel that is making people feel disenfranchised from our political masters! It's just a load of waffle which bears little resemblance to what is going on and how those of us "in the frontline" feel about what is going on! Why can't they talk plain english - who or what are "aviation stakeholders"?
Sounds like the script from a rerun of "Yes Minister"
Sounds like the script from a rerun of "Yes Minister"
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So as I understand it, staff will be issued with one and under legislation they could just bin it and never look back as they are not required to carry it. So what's the point?
Roll on the stories about airside workers being sacked because it's "company policy" to carry their I.D. cards and they refused to do so.
Roll on the stories about airside workers being sacked because it's "company policy" to carry their I.D. cards and they refused to do so.
@ fireflybob:
Aviation stakeholders are people or organisations who are invited to comment on any given subject so that their opinions can be ignored, whilst allowing whowever is making the decisions to pretend that they actually give a hoot about what anyone else thinks.
Frankly I'm surprised they allow us to have stakes - far too dangerous things for untrustworthy folks such as us to be allowed to play with.
Aviation stakeholders are people or organisations who are invited to comment on any given subject so that their opinions can be ignored, whilst allowing whowever is making the decisions to pretend that they actually give a hoot about what anyone else thinks.
Frankly I'm surprised they allow us to have stakes - far too dangerous things for untrustworthy folks such as us to be allowed to play with.