Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards
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You're joking!
Sorry johnriketes you've bought the cynic out in me!
(basically.....Trust me, I'm a politician) I just can't do it anymore 
The difference is Pilot's are trained and very well qualified to do their jobs. What training and (relevant) qualifications do most Politicians have to oversea the departments they're put in charge of? Usually none.
Alas, I've lost faith in the (UK) government to run large/complex projects and their ability to handle sensitive data.
It's a no vote from me.
Phil
....I am in government and a serving politican. Trust me.....
I trust you with my life when I am flying on your aeroplanes so you must trust us, with your freedom.
Alas, I've lost faith in the (UK) government to run large/complex projects and their ability to handle sensitive data.
It's a no vote from me.
Phil
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I need to be a serving politician too!
This whole thread has run on for 160+ posts over 2 weeks and it is still on subject....seems like the vast majority are overwhelmingly anti ID cards for good reason. If johnriketes is a serving politician, then I am a serving cabinet minister: but I think it's too late to leave the UK to democracy now, so I fancy dictatorship in order to repeal all the acts that have been passed, that so compromise our Yuman Rights.
The erosion of choice, and the requirement to monitor and direct every aspect of our lives, is truly frightening; the ID card is another weapon in the relentless effort to control the peasants and it WILL happen unless WE make a concerted to reject this gross and intrusive new tool in the government's armoury.
The erosion of choice, and the requirement to monitor and direct every aspect of our lives, is truly frightening; the ID card is another weapon in the relentless effort to control the peasants and it WILL happen unless WE make a concerted to reject this gross and intrusive new tool in the government's armoury.
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Trust / Safety
I have seen a fair bit of abuse towards security staff at airports on this board, when it is the Government who is responsible.
I agree that the Government should serve the people, and not have police demanding to see I.D cards of citizens, as this is a police state. However the police can demand to know who you are.
However at an airport as long as there is sufficient I.D to get airside then there should be no issue.
Ultimately any I.D system that is making sure that it is the flight crew who are boarding the flight and not unauthorized people is required in a form which works and is secure.
I agree that the Government should serve the people, and not have police demanding to see I.D cards of citizens, as this is a police state. However the police can demand to know who you are.
However at an airport as long as there is sufficient I.D to get airside then there should be no issue.
Ultimately any I.D system that is making sure that it is the flight crew who are boarding the flight and not unauthorized people is required in a form which works and is secure.
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(OK, I detect a troll post. However...)
The main difference is that a pilot also has his own interests at stake, given that he's likely to arrive at the scene of a crash before I do. A politician in power is like having the pilot on the ground flying the aircraft remotely.
You can see how much politicians trust their own databases by the fact that they're all having their children given protected status to restrict access on the ContactPoint database of children.
You naysayers have it all wrong. I am in government and a serving politican. Trust me on this when I say you pilots have nothing to worry about whatsoever. I trust you with my life when I am flying on your aeroplanes so you must trust us, with your freedom.
You can see how much politicians trust their own databases by the fact that they're all having their children given protected status to restrict access on the ContactPoint database of children.
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For those who are wanting to do something other than complain and wait for others to do it for you. There are people in rapidly growing movement fighting all this...
The Convention on Modern Liberty
The Convention on Modern Liberty
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Yes we do have a lot to worry about. Erosions of freedoms. If you have a problem as a politician with certain issues or sections of society. Then go after those elements. Increase funding, do whatever it is you do in the westminster village to target the right areas. But applying a blanket rule against professional aviators, does NOTHING to alleviate any of the contrived excuses that have been used to try and justify these ID cards.
I am not in the business of "trusting" because I am told to, we Pilots analyse facts and data.
Give me one good reason without any PC claptrap, why a British born and bred professional aviator with a full UK ATPL and a British passport, who does not claim benefits and is not an illegal immigrant, must carry an ID card. I am not interested in the "well we have to do it to everyone" argument. We don't all get fired for 1 persons mistake, we don't all go to jail for 1 mans crime.
I hope BALPA put together a Pilots class action against the government and the DFT on the basis of human rights.
We should not be railroaded into this punative scheme, it started off, post 9-11 as "the key to combating terrorism", then when established that it would make no difference as terrorists wouldn't have one anyway, so the argument shifted to benefit fraud, and then illegal immigrants. It is just politcal opportunism to grab more control.
It is government trying to shift paradigms, It is all about them having more control over everyone and everything.
There is simply no threat from Professional ATPL carrying Aviators, who have had criminal records and reference checks already.
I heard a radio debate about plans afoot to have installed in all cars a black box type device, sold to the general public by the politicians on the radio show, as a "road useage monitoring device" to replace car tax so people only pay for what they use. It would follow all cars all the time by GPS. Hmmmmmm how about a spying device so you know everyones every move (doubling petrol duty could do the same thing).
People are becoming so used to being bullied around and I think enough is enough. I don't know any of my colleagues who are benefit claimants, they certainly are not illegal aliens, and I don't think you will find many Airline Pilots in these shores, sitting at home and hatching plans to blow themselves up. They do after all fly the aircraft.
But thats what the PC brigade are whacking us with, to make us conform to their hidden agendas.
I am not in the business of "trusting" because I am told to, we Pilots analyse facts and data.
Give me one good reason without any PC claptrap, why a British born and bred professional aviator with a full UK ATPL and a British passport, who does not claim benefits and is not an illegal immigrant, must carry an ID card. I am not interested in the "well we have to do it to everyone" argument. We don't all get fired for 1 persons mistake, we don't all go to jail for 1 mans crime.
I hope BALPA put together a Pilots class action against the government and the DFT on the basis of human rights.
We should not be railroaded into this punative scheme, it started off, post 9-11 as "the key to combating terrorism", then when established that it would make no difference as terrorists wouldn't have one anyway, so the argument shifted to benefit fraud, and then illegal immigrants. It is just politcal opportunism to grab more control.
It is government trying to shift paradigms, It is all about them having more control over everyone and everything.
There is simply no threat from Professional ATPL carrying Aviators, who have had criminal records and reference checks already.
I heard a radio debate about plans afoot to have installed in all cars a black box type device, sold to the general public by the politicians on the radio show, as a "road useage monitoring device" to replace car tax so people only pay for what they use. It would follow all cars all the time by GPS. Hmmmmmm how about a spying device so you know everyones every move (doubling petrol duty could do the same thing).
People are becoming so used to being bullied around and I think enough is enough. I don't know any of my colleagues who are benefit claimants, they certainly are not illegal aliens, and I don't think you will find many Airline Pilots in these shores, sitting at home and hatching plans to blow themselves up. They do after all fly the aircraft.
But thats what the PC brigade are whacking us with, to make us conform to their hidden agendas.
Last edited by BottyTotty; 9th Mar 2009 at 02:47.
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Doesn't this say it all?
From todays Daily Telegraph.
Britain 'nation of form fillers watched by quarter of world's CCTV cameras' - Telegraph
Britain 'nation of form fillers watched by quarter of world's CCTV cameras' - Telegraph
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BottyTotty
Excellent post indeed.
9/11 Hmmm....... Some groups in Governments I bet have been "wishing" for such an event to take place, to use as an excuse, to tighten the strangle hold on the individual as it is a wonderful umbrella to hide under. Of course I would never, ever, suggest such a horrendous event was encouraged in any way what so ever, by the "establishments". That would be unthinkable, would it not?
Excellent post indeed.
9/11 Hmmm....... Some groups in Governments I bet have been "wishing" for such an event to take place, to use as an excuse, to tighten the strangle hold on the individual as it is a wonderful umbrella to hide under. Of course I would never, ever, suggest such a horrendous event was encouraged in any way what so ever, by the "establishments". That would be unthinkable, would it not?
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doubleu-anker Were they caught totally unawares?, were they actively involved for hidden reasons?, or had they intel but turned a blind eye?. That is a different and maybe pointless debate, who knows?
Besides, all the reasons, previously started why trying to force an Airline pilot to have an ID card has no valid argument or basis other than control.
The goverment in the UK has a history of losing sensitve data.
In the past fews years there have been a few seperate occasions were highly sensitive data about individuals has been lost, left on trains on laptops, stolen etc.
I am convinced there is a lot more risk and danger to me and fellow pilots in these incompetent people holding every conceivable biometric and personal fact about you.
We are much less of a threat to them, than the goverment are to us.
Besides, all the reasons, previously started why trying to force an Airline pilot to have an ID card has no valid argument or basis other than control.
The goverment in the UK has a history of losing sensitve data.
In the past fews years there have been a few seperate occasions were highly sensitive data about individuals has been lost, left on trains on laptops, stolen etc.
I am convinced there is a lot more risk and danger to me and fellow pilots in these incompetent people holding every conceivable biometric and personal fact about you.
We are much less of a threat to them, than the goverment are to us.
Slightly off thread but have been watching the TV this morning on about parking offences/tickets etc.
I was amazed to learn that DVLA can pass your details to other agencies and charge Ł2.50 for this service. This is, for example, if you park on private land and the owner wishes to take action against you doing so. Apparently when you sign the vehicle logbook when you renew your car tax you are agreeing that DVLA can pass your details on. The interviewer asked the head of DVLA if car owner's were able to withold this permission and the answer was that in law they could not do so.
Whilst I would agree that one shouldn't park illegally or on private land without permission I was somewhat surprised that DVLA can pass these details on and I wonder what checks they do to ensure that agencies asking for details are bona fide.
I was amazed to learn that DVLA can pass your details to other agencies and charge Ł2.50 for this service. This is, for example, if you park on private land and the owner wishes to take action against you doing so. Apparently when you sign the vehicle logbook when you renew your car tax you are agreeing that DVLA can pass your details on. The interviewer asked the head of DVLA if car owner's were able to withold this permission and the answer was that in law they could not do so.
Whilst I would agree that one shouldn't park illegally or on private land without permission I was somewhat surprised that DVLA can pass these details on and I wonder what checks they do to ensure that agencies asking for details are bona fide.
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I have decided to refuse to go onto the National Identity Register whilst it is not compulsory to do so, which is my democratic right.
However, the governments draft legislation will persecute and obstruct me as an aviation worker. It is not a proper function of government to create an ID card as a form of official permission to earn a living for law-abiding workers such as myself. The draft legislation clearly shows that if I refuse then later this year will see the start of the process of my being denied the right to work.
I consider the government ID card proposals for myself as an aviation worker to be an attack on my individual rights and freedoms, which will lead to an unfair denial to work if I refuse to be coerced onto the National Identity Database. In my opinion this is in conflict with liberal democratic values.
Whilst we stand helplessly and watch the erosion of our individual wealth we can draw some comfort from the fact that we can still influence and fight for our civil rights, freedom and privacy. We all have an individual responsibility to do so and each individual can make a difference. Remember civil rights are the citizen’s protection from the government itself, once they are lost we may never get them back.
Please PM me if you would like a pdf copy of “The National ID Card For Airside Workers – Should we be concerned and if so why?"
Good luck to all who oppose this repressive legislation.
However, the governments draft legislation will persecute and obstruct me as an aviation worker. It is not a proper function of government to create an ID card as a form of official permission to earn a living for law-abiding workers such as myself. The draft legislation clearly shows that if I refuse then later this year will see the start of the process of my being denied the right to work.
I consider the government ID card proposals for myself as an aviation worker to be an attack on my individual rights and freedoms, which will lead to an unfair denial to work if I refuse to be coerced onto the National Identity Database. In my opinion this is in conflict with liberal democratic values.
Whilst we stand helplessly and watch the erosion of our individual wealth we can draw some comfort from the fact that we can still influence and fight for our civil rights, freedom and privacy. We all have an individual responsibility to do so and each individual can make a difference. Remember civil rights are the citizen’s protection from the government itself, once they are lost we may never get them back.
Please PM me if you would like a pdf copy of “The National ID Card For Airside Workers – Should we be concerned and if so why?"
Good luck to all who oppose this repressive legislation.
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I'm thoroughly against the National ID Card, heavens knows I spend enough of my time writing and blogging against it, but your post, BottyTotty is extremely...strange to say the least.
Where does "PC" come into this? What does it matter if you're "British born and bred"? What does it matter if you claim benefits or are an immigrant, illegal or otherwise?
First of all, the arguments that the Government are using to justify ID cards are NOT “PC”, I’d say that they stood in stark contrast to the thoughts and feelings of those on the political Left/Liberals/the concept of “political correctness” people who band about the term bleat on about. The idea that migrant workers and international students should be forced to carry biometric cards to access essential services is disgusting and far, far from “PC”.
Migrant workers shouldn’t be forced to carry one. Young people shouldn’t be forced to carry one. Your great-aunt Ethel shouldn’t be forced to carry one.
What the piloting community needs to realize is that the Government is picking-off what it considers to be the easy targets. We need to approach the issue without the slightest whiff of Jingoism if we are to stop the ID card. This is because we need to campaign FROM THE START against their phased introduction. This means making links with organizations that represent migrant workers and international students.
I can’t remember off the top of my head how the poem goes, so I’ll do my best to reproduce it here:
First they came for the “illegal immigrants”, and I did not speak up for I was not an “illegal immigrant”,
Then they came for the International students, and I did not speak up for I was not an International student,
Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak up for me.
Give me one good reason without any PC claptrap, why a British born and bred professional aviator with a full UK ATPL and a British passport, who does not claim benefits and is not an illegal immigrant, must carry an ID card.
Where does "PC" come into this? What does it matter if you're "British born and bred"? What does it matter if you claim benefits or are an immigrant, illegal or otherwise?
First of all, the arguments that the Government are using to justify ID cards are NOT “PC”, I’d say that they stood in stark contrast to the thoughts and feelings of those on the political Left/Liberals/the concept of “political correctness” people who band about the term bleat on about. The idea that migrant workers and international students should be forced to carry biometric cards to access essential services is disgusting and far, far from “PC”.
Migrant workers shouldn’t be forced to carry one. Young people shouldn’t be forced to carry one. Your great-aunt Ethel shouldn’t be forced to carry one.
What the piloting community needs to realize is that the Government is picking-off what it considers to be the easy targets. We need to approach the issue without the slightest whiff of Jingoism if we are to stop the ID card. This is because we need to campaign FROM THE START against their phased introduction. This means making links with organizations that represent migrant workers and international students.
I can’t remember off the top of my head how the poem goes, so I’ll do my best to reproduce it here:
First they came for the “illegal immigrants”, and I did not speak up for I was not an “illegal immigrant”,
Then they came for the International students, and I did not speak up for I was not an International student,
Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak up for me.
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ID Cards
Old Fella. I don't imagine that any of the ID cards you have held in the past have had enormous quanitities of your personal information (Home and work addresses, Iris scan, Finger prints, criminal record, medical details etc) held in some hacker friendly, loosely controlled, information may be leaked or lost database, badly organised by a Central Government?
Good point
That's a very good point. In the past all that security stuff was probably buried in a file somewhere. Now it'll be readable on the back of the id card. I'm slowly becoming more anti.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
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As a sample of what our esteemed government has in store for us, I understand that it will be a criminal offence NOT to inform G. Brown & friends when you change address.
So if you rent and move, or are sleeping on friends' sofas whilst you find somewhere, or have just split up and don't know or care where you live as long as it's not with her/him ...... you could be committing a criminal offence which could lead to the loss of pilot employment (amongst other things).
On the other hand, a woman has just been on our local TV. She is close to bankruptcy because her fisherman husband is long missing, presumed drowned, but his creditors will not speak to her because she is not the account holder - data protection, of course - and the final demands keeping coming, unopened by her dead husband. This is the idiotic mentality which will permeate every corner of our lives, professional and private, with Gordon's ID cards.
- And remember: all this is being done in the name of improved security, to protect the world against our innate terrorist instincts as pilots.
So if you rent and move, or are sleeping on friends' sofas whilst you find somewhere, or have just split up and don't know or care where you live as long as it's not with her/him ...... you could be committing a criminal offence which could lead to the loss of pilot employment (amongst other things).
On the other hand, a woman has just been on our local TV. She is close to bankruptcy because her fisherman husband is long missing, presumed drowned, but his creditors will not speak to her because she is not the account holder - data protection, of course - and the final demands keeping coming, unopened by her dead husband. This is the idiotic mentality which will permeate every corner of our lives, professional and private, with Gordon's ID cards.
- And remember: all this is being done in the name of improved security, to protect the world against our innate terrorist instincts as pilots.
>>it will be a criminal offence NOT to inform G. Brown & friends when you change address.<<
Have a look at:
Take Jane » NO2ID
You need to be able to move in privacy!
Have a look at:
Take Jane » NO2ID
You need to be able to move in privacy!