Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards
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I went to a meeting a few months back, that was set up by my union, Unite. It was with Marc Harris, who is the Chief of Staff, Central Delivery Team, Critical Workers identity Cards Scheme.
We had a robust discussion about ID cards and their benefit. One person saw their benefit, a Mr. Marc Harris, obviously. My unions position appeared to be that they are coming, so lets unite and get the various businesses involved to pay for them. Make from that what you will about Labour Party allegiance.
Mr. Harris also said if you have any further queries from yourself or anyone else, then fee free to contact him. His email is
[email protected] (if you cannot see this email and you would like it, then please PM me as it appears not to display.)
Most of the CEO's of UK Airlines have put their names to a letter showing opposition to the scheme being introduced for airport workers. I would imagine that this is because when the first groups apply for the ID card, then the individual would be looking for their company to foot the bill.
We had a robust discussion about ID cards and their benefit. One person saw their benefit, a Mr. Marc Harris, obviously. My unions position appeared to be that they are coming, so lets unite and get the various businesses involved to pay for them. Make from that what you will about Labour Party allegiance.
Mr. Harris also said if you have any further queries from yourself or anyone else, then fee free to contact him. His email is
[email protected] (if you cannot see this email and you would like it, then please PM me as it appears not to display.)
Most of the CEO's of UK Airlines have put their names to a letter showing opposition to the scheme being introduced for airport workers. I would imagine that this is because when the first groups apply for the ID card, then the individual would be looking for their company to foot the bill.
BALPA website:
BALPA - PILOTS WARN ON ID CARDS NEXT STEPS
The consulation response can be read at:
BALPA - BALPA ID Legislation Letter 2009 02 11
Quote:
Without being pompous about this, it is an affront to the people who for years have been and continue to be at the forefront in a battle against terrorist outrage that we are subject to the inuendo that we are especially dangerous and in need of further surveillance."
Quote:
Your case that this will improve security has not been made; indeed it is clear that you now recognise this as you now claim only that “it will make a contribution to improving security”. As the scheme expands beyond airport workers we see a situation where possession of a UK ID Card is seen by some as indicating suitability for air side access whilst not actually cleared to do so. This could take peoples eye off the ball as false perceptions on such sensitive issues are not easily corrected. Which will take precedence at the security gate – the air side pass or the ID Card? We would like to have a detailed explanation of the Government's concerns over the existing air side access arrangements and a further explanation as to how the NIS might make a positive contribution of any kind. The Government has singularly failed to change opinion amongst BALPA members but we are quite happy to lay your case before our members who represent 80% of the commercial pilots in the UK.
Quote:
We look forward to your response but on the current proposals you should be aware that we will be campaigning against ID cards and the regulations with all means possible and will be letting the Wave One airports know this
BALPA - PILOTS WARN ON ID CARDS NEXT STEPS
The consulation response can be read at:
BALPA - BALPA ID Legislation Letter 2009 02 11
Quote:
Without being pompous about this, it is an affront to the people who for years have been and continue to be at the forefront in a battle against terrorist outrage that we are subject to the inuendo that we are especially dangerous and in need of further surveillance."
Quote:
Your case that this will improve security has not been made; indeed it is clear that you now recognise this as you now claim only that “it will make a contribution to improving security”. As the scheme expands beyond airport workers we see a situation where possession of a UK ID Card is seen by some as indicating suitability for air side access whilst not actually cleared to do so. This could take peoples eye off the ball as false perceptions on such sensitive issues are not easily corrected. Which will take precedence at the security gate – the air side pass or the ID Card? We would like to have a detailed explanation of the Government's concerns over the existing air side access arrangements and a further explanation as to how the NIS might make a positive contribution of any kind. The Government has singularly failed to change opinion amongst BALPA members but we are quite happy to lay your case before our members who represent 80% of the commercial pilots in the UK.
Quote:
We look forward to your response but on the current proposals you should be aware that we will be campaigning against ID cards and the regulations with all means possible and will be letting the Wave One airports know this
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What is wrong with ID cards?
What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
So, all the best for your fight! I wish you sucess!
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Quote: “.............with a CAA issued airside pass valid for all airports.”
Where does this stop? Will the thousands of foreign pilots who regularly fly in and out of UK airports have to each carry one? Imagine if every aircrew member worldwide had to carry such a pass for every country (and perhaps every airport) they might be rostered to visit while on duty.
Identity documents for aircrew are already in use. Their titles are PASSPORTS and AIRCREW LICENCES. If the present versions are not good enough then improve them. Nothing will be 100% secure. (The Israeli government used to issue Canadian passports!) That is no reason to take a “shoot the whole village in reprisal” response and blight everyone’s life.
Where does this stop? Will the thousands of foreign pilots who regularly fly in and out of UK airports have to each carry one? Imagine if every aircrew member worldwide had to carry such a pass for every country (and perhaps every airport) they might be rostered to visit while on duty.
Identity documents for aircrew are already in use. Their titles are PASSPORTS and AIRCREW LICENCES. If the present versions are not good enough then improve them. Nothing will be 100% secure. (The Israeli government used to issue Canadian passports!) That is no reason to take a “shoot the whole village in reprisal” response and blight everyone’s life.
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Hee hee. This would be funny if it wasn't so infuriating. Of course there's no readers available yet to read these cards. You didn't actually think anyone is interested if the cards are used or not, did you?
Let's stop and ask ourselves a question: Who is going to benefit from these ID cards? The company producing the card, the software etc etce etc? Maybe, but if it wasn't these cards they'd be spending their time on, they'd doing something useful so I can't really see a benefit there for them. They would just be earning the same money a bit differently, and possibly with a lot less hassle from the rest of the country.
No, the answer lies with the politicians. I am willing to bet a pound against a kilogram of buffalo chips that some politician is earning a few pounds somewhere in this process. Probably as a non-executive director, or as a paid consultant ,or as a little nest egg when he retires.
Is there any other reason they are so hell-bent on introducing an ID card scheme?
And don't for one minute think whoever else is in charge next time around (Tory/ Labour/ Lib Dem/ etc etc etc) are going to do anything different. "Oooh we'll stop it" says politician A from whatever lot "however due to the previous government's insistence on taking it so far we are now contractually bound to paying for the scheme."
It's obvious to even the meanest understanding that the ID card scheme as it currently stands is fatally flawed, and will not provide the slightest security benefit to us, its users. By all means let's have ID cards, but then let's do it properly, so that it will actually be difficult and expensive to forge, so that it will be backed up by proper research into someone's past to ensure he is who he says he is. What's wrong with having a barcode printed on it, like on a passport? Thousands of machines can read it (I bet you can even have a Tesco checkout read it if you wanted to) and these machines are already in place.
Also, why do they want to link everything into one huge database? Surely it takes one bad apple to give a criminal access and we're all vulnerable.
Madness.
Let's stop and ask ourselves a question: Who is going to benefit from these ID cards? The company producing the card, the software etc etce etc? Maybe, but if it wasn't these cards they'd be spending their time on, they'd doing something useful so I can't really see a benefit there for them. They would just be earning the same money a bit differently, and possibly with a lot less hassle from the rest of the country.
No, the answer lies with the politicians. I am willing to bet a pound against a kilogram of buffalo chips that some politician is earning a few pounds somewhere in this process. Probably as a non-executive director, or as a paid consultant ,or as a little nest egg when he retires.
Is there any other reason they are so hell-bent on introducing an ID card scheme?
And don't for one minute think whoever else is in charge next time around (Tory/ Labour/ Lib Dem/ etc etc etc) are going to do anything different. "Oooh we'll stop it" says politician A from whatever lot "however due to the previous government's insistence on taking it so far we are now contractually bound to paying for the scheme."
It's obvious to even the meanest understanding that the ID card scheme as it currently stands is fatally flawed, and will not provide the slightest security benefit to us, its users. By all means let's have ID cards, but then let's do it properly, so that it will actually be difficult and expensive to forge, so that it will be backed up by proper research into someone's past to ensure he is who he says he is. What's wrong with having a barcode printed on it, like on a passport? Thousands of machines can read it (I bet you can even have a Tesco checkout read it if you wanted to) and these machines are already in place.
Also, why do they want to link everything into one huge database? Surely it takes one bad apple to give a criminal access and we're all vulnerable.
Madness.
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ID Card Guinea Pigs.
Wake up and smell the coffee, or rather the money, to be made by "The Authorities" and their partners in crime, the Security Industry. Every aviation security disaster has resulted in unknown fortunes to be made by those supplying harware and humanware to solve the problem of making aviation allegedly more safe from gun & bomb toting loonies. After Lockerbie, we heard of the neutron sniffing machines which would detect explosive chemical wafts from hold baggage. Apparently these machines were so heavy that Lgw terminal would have collapsed onto the A23 if they were installed without significant structural mods to the building!! However, doubtless the r&d on an open chequebook contract from govts various made a tidy pile for the industry and their lobbyists. Where is this kit now?? More casualties occurrred in the Air India bombing off S Ireland, yet the Canadian Authorities pigsed the investigation and no satisfactory outcome was evident. And the Lockerbie verdict is now so suspect that it may yet be overturned. The twin towers fiasco has spawned equally feverish activity with new hoops and loops to walk through which allegedly display the human body without clothes(!), so that ceramic and plastic knives can be detected. Hordes of new personnel have been hired to make life difficult for ID pass-wearing employees trying to get to work. The Glasgow incident means that a jeep loaded with nasties won't get near the precious pax, but the miles of perimeter fencing remain as vulnerable as ever to the same sort of attack on a hapless aircraft approaching V1. Known "good eggs" like family and company employees are barred from riding in the flt deck, yet many cockpit compartments are MORE secure from the boxcutter wielding fanatics by reason of the rigged jumpseat and the self preservation instinct of the 3rd occupant. NO, there is no fact, logic and reasoning employed in the pursuit of better security with multiple agencies getting in on the act and treating us all as guilty until proven innocent. NO, this govt and their partners in IT will persist with the National ID plan with all its costs following the serious losses of liberty already incurred under the ridiculous cause of "The War on Terror", as if such a "war" can be won. Whether a strike or similar industrial action will happen, against an economic downturn where those lucky ones still in employment are understandably fearful of losing their jobs, is debatable. "Chirp" has many reports where air and grd staff have been treated abysmally by the goons at "security", leaving them in a frame of mind not condusive to flight safety, but the CAA says it can do nothing until the flt safety case is proven, presumably by means of a "Tombstone Imperative"? One can only hope that the introduction of the latest moneymaking wheeze will be delayed by the inevitable IT glitches which plague all govt attempts to use technology to sort a problem whose roots lie elsewhere. At this point I think I'll go and lie down in a darkened until the fever passes, cos I'm sure it was all a bad dream......................
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ID cards
Hellsbrink, my fellow Belgian, the details on our ID cards go into a central database where, in time, any knuckle-dragging Tom, Dick and Harry in a government department will be able to access ALL our details. The Brits should hold out to the last man, woman, child and beast!
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Bimey Barkingmad, that post was hard to read. Not heard of paragraphs !!.
Flaphandlemover,
What a pompus t
t. What the hell does a persons class status have to do with the job they do ?. There are many of the so-called Upper Classes who are in low paid jobs, and many working class who earn a fortune. One cannot simply assume that because one chooses a particular job that they are of a lower status than oneself !!.
Flaphandlemover,
What a pompus t
t. What the hell does a persons class status have to do with the job they do ?. There are many of the so-called Upper Classes who are in low paid jobs, and many working class who earn a fortune. One cannot simply assume that because one chooses a particular job that they are of a lower status than oneself !!.
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I am tired of it too
Damn ID cards, and yes the new ones are not the same like in Europe. These have biometric data, iris, fingerprint, traffic history, medical history etc, etc, plus the ... unsafe RFID chip. Total crap for the new big brother Stasi type state. And yes on top of that, those idiots that order you around to take your .. shoes of. No courtesy, no respect. And yes you .. morons, I have a crash axe and a control column, what the hell are you checking my toothpaste. Sorry for the rant but I am ... tired to be treated this way everyday while I operate a 100's million dollar airplane and Hundreds of lives. DISGUSTING 
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For anyone who doesn't think that civil liberties are a problem in this country maybe I should point out that as from today it is now illegal for anyone to take a photo of a policeman (or anyone in the military, or any military installations or ...or...or...etc) in this country.
Nice.
Welcome to 1950's soviet union.
Nice.
Welcome to 1950's soviet union.
Trouble is that the data on these new cards are not secure. Anyone with suitable equipment could get the data by just walking past you, so I am told.
Identity frauds will be on the increase methinks.
Identity frauds will be on the increase methinks.
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Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the ad banner at the bottom of this page offers a device to read these cards!!!!
The only thing that is surprising is that there are people who are still surprised.
The only thing that is surprising is that there are people who are still surprised.
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Historically, whenever governments have wanted to implement an unpopular change, they have turned to the church. The fear of disobedience that religious doctrine instills in a population from birth is a powerful one and was an excellent tool in controlling behavioural persuasion.
Today, with declining religious beliefs, and increased personal enlightenment due largely to the internet, this method is rendered less useful. So governments (and large corporations) use other methods to spread fear in order to achieve their aims (the terrorist threat level is now "Yellow"). The age old rule of how to implement a deeply unpopular change is to implement it slowly - allowing the population time to accept each incremental intrusion into their lives. Thus there are PR firms specializing in advising companies and governments on how to best achieve their fiercely-opposed aims.
My guess is that the real reason behind the introduction of ID cards is solely to enhance tax revenue collection, by aiding the tracking of both domestic & international money movements. Nothing else can substantiate the cost of implementation. There will be other ancillary advantages for the Government such as cross-referencing benefits claims and health records. Of course, none of this can be officially announced because of the certain ensuing public uproar.
The simplest way to implement such a change is to begin by spreading fear (the threat level is now "Red with orange stripes"). Fear of terrorism is the easiest to use since it is entirely speculative and the Government has a strong reason for not substantiating their claims ("Trust us. We can't tell you why but you should all be very afraid.") and my personal favourite, "It's not a matter of if but when".
Once you've spread the fear, the next step is to start countering that fear with a "trial run" over a "limited period" with a small "sub-set" of the population. A good choice would be a generally law-abiding group, whose obedience to rules is already closely monitored anyway, and whose income stream is totally dependent on their compliance. Pilots fit this description perfectly.
The next step will be to continue the trial on a voluntary basis, expanding it to other groups. After all, the threat of terrorism still exists - it cannot be proven otherwise (the threat level is now "Purple with gold polker-dots").
At around about this point, the "Passport Office" would quietly be renamed to the "Passport & Identity Office"
Then will come the complete integration with everything we do (still just on a voluntary basis), opening a bank account, visiting your doctors surgery, enrolling your kids at school, filing your tax return.
Then, quietly, buried at the bottom of more lengthy "Anti-terror" legislation - the system finally become compulsory.
Et voila ... the change has been implemented and every law-abiding citizen now has something to scrape the ice off the windshield in the mornings.
Today, with declining religious beliefs, and increased personal enlightenment due largely to the internet, this method is rendered less useful. So governments (and large corporations) use other methods to spread fear in order to achieve their aims (the terrorist threat level is now "Yellow"). The age old rule of how to implement a deeply unpopular change is to implement it slowly - allowing the population time to accept each incremental intrusion into their lives. Thus there are PR firms specializing in advising companies and governments on how to best achieve their fiercely-opposed aims.
My guess is that the real reason behind the introduction of ID cards is solely to enhance tax revenue collection, by aiding the tracking of both domestic & international money movements. Nothing else can substantiate the cost of implementation. There will be other ancillary advantages for the Government such as cross-referencing benefits claims and health records. Of course, none of this can be officially announced because of the certain ensuing public uproar.
The simplest way to implement such a change is to begin by spreading fear (the threat level is now "Red with orange stripes"). Fear of terrorism is the easiest to use since it is entirely speculative and the Government has a strong reason for not substantiating their claims ("Trust us. We can't tell you why but you should all be very afraid.") and my personal favourite, "It's not a matter of if but when".
Once you've spread the fear, the next step is to start countering that fear with a "trial run" over a "limited period" with a small "sub-set" of the population. A good choice would be a generally law-abiding group, whose obedience to rules is already closely monitored anyway, and whose income stream is totally dependent on their compliance. Pilots fit this description perfectly.
The next step will be to continue the trial on a voluntary basis, expanding it to other groups. After all, the threat of terrorism still exists - it cannot be proven otherwise (the threat level is now "Purple with gold polker-dots").
At around about this point, the "Passport Office" would quietly be renamed to the "Passport & Identity Office"
Then will come the complete integration with everything we do (still just on a voluntary basis), opening a bank account, visiting your doctors surgery, enrolling your kids at school, filing your tax return.
Then, quietly, buried at the bottom of more lengthy "Anti-terror" legislation - the system finally become compulsory.
Et voila ... the change has been implemented and every law-abiding citizen now has something to scrape the ice off the windshield in the mornings.
Last edited by v6g; 16th Feb 2009 at 17:51.
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Hellsbrink, my fellow Belgian, the details on our ID cards go into a central database where, in time, any knuckle-dragging Tom, Dick and Harry in a government department will be able to access ALL our details. The Brits should hold out to the last man, woman, child and beast!
You see, this is what I am getting at. The guy at my local "vreemdelingdienst" cannot get my tax records. The police cannot get my medical records. Etc etc etc.
Now, I do know a litle bit about these things as my late g/f did actually work on the computer systems for certain government departments, and I take her word regarding how things are.
The UK system, however, wants to put EVERYTHING on one central database so any joey at the Gemeentehuis can look at every single aspect of your life. As far as I know, that isn't happening over here but it is in Blighty........
Of course, if they get away withit in the UK then eveyone else will do the same
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737Jock
Because I'm a "furriner" here (born and bred in the land of the rising haggis) I have a paper ID card too.
What info does that carry apart fom my name and address and a photo? Hell, my Belgian driving licence is only a piece of paper with my photo on it.
But some of us have been used to carying passports with us (I used to work at LHR, doing all kinds of 'leccy stuff, you might have heard me swearing) and when I go on vacation, I carry my UK passport. When I am here in België, I always cary my UK (biometric) passport and ID card. Nobody will dispute who I am, and if I am pulled over (again) for an ID check, which notrmally happens after *ahem* beers, it's only a minor inonvnience.
BUT... An ID card should only be that. Something that says who you are and no more
Because I'm a "furriner" here (born and bred in the land of the rising haggis) I have a paper ID card too.
What info does that carry apart fom my name and address and a photo? Hell, my Belgian driving licence is only a piece of paper with my photo on it.
But some of us have been used to carying passports with us (I used to work at LHR, doing all kinds of 'leccy stuff, you might have heard me swearing) and when I go on vacation, I carry my UK passport. When I am here in België, I always cary my UK (biometric) passport and ID card. Nobody will dispute who I am, and if I am pulled over (again) for an ID check, which notrmally happens after *ahem* beers, it's only a minor inonvnience.
BUT... An ID card should only be that. Something that says who you are and no more
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The first step required if you wish to control a population, is to list them.
The ID card is simply a way of listing and numbering people.
The ID card is simply a way of listing and numbering people.
I am actually looking forward to this confrontation. The reason it has come down to BALPA to stop the rot is that without pilots there is no aviation. Period. Even Tony in his exec. jet will be unable to set of on his Middle-Eastern hotel inspections.
Most other staff groups have either unions in the pocket of the Government or can be picked off slowly while the show goes on. On the day the first pilot can't work because he doesn't have this useless ID, the runways and skies will fall silent until this stupidity is corrected.
I've always wondered what drove people towards a revolution and I'm starting to get an inkling of why they come about...
Most other staff groups have either unions in the pocket of the Government or can be picked off slowly while the show goes on. On the day the first pilot can't work because he doesn't have this useless ID, the runways and skies will fall silent until this stupidity is corrected.
I've always wondered what drove people towards a revolution and I'm starting to get an inkling of why they come about...
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Great to see so many mates feel the same way
It is time to tell them bastards to stuff it. It's time to stop this Big Brother Stasi snooping system. Also in the states they start snooping, fingerprinting, snitching on every aspect of our life, all in the name of those"terrorists". Terrorists they are but state sponsered.
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What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
I believe it is the information the card is designed to contain that is causing the problem.
In the EU the cards are simple documents of identity, which is not what is intended in the UK. Or, is not as far as I can ascertain. As usual what has been released to the public is vague and fluffy, not accurate and distinct as it should be.
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
I believe it is the information the card is designed to contain that is causing the problem.
In the EU the cards are simple documents of identity, which is not what is intended in the UK. Or, is not as far as I can ascertain. As usual what has been released to the public is vague and fluffy, not accurate and distinct as it should be.