Ryanair incident Ciampino.

[Capt Ted Crilly]

there is a story circulating here in dublin that the gear did not collapse until the aircraft had come to a stop.

which could explain why the aircraft is fairly central on the runway and that none of the tires seem to be burst!!!!!!!!!

the plan was to disembark the aircraft via the steps normally until the gear then collapsed???

alot of people are talking alot of pony at the moment on this thread and alot of you are very wide of the mark,rumour network or discussion forum.

[cwatters]

>Cwatters.
>In your reply you state that " Even though I'm only a glider pilot I know that >if you get out of shape you go around"
>So what do you do in your glider if you get 'out of shape?'
>
>Of all people- you should know better!

I didn't actually say you do that in a glider. I know my landings a bit fast sometimes but not fast enough to GA :-)

We don't know exactly what the effect was of hitting those birds. It might have left them going sideways, one low over the grass for all we know. Point is the GA may have been correct thing to do. We'll just have to wait and see. Good outcome anyway.

[virginblue]

On a German forum, a Ryanair pilot says that the aircraft hit the runway tail first? Anyone able to confirm that?

German tabloid today carries eyewitness reports, with pax saying that it took 30 (?) minutes to evacuate the plane

[bizdev]

Do you guys still switch on a landing light to scare them off ?

Another large LCC operating in Europe was continually cracking the landing light brackets, I believe because the crews were lowering them earlier in the descent than originally designed - when this issue was raised by the MRO (problem not seen with other operators), it was explained that the lights were lowered earlier in order to scare birds. The increased maintenance costs, and potential decrease in aircraft reliability, was considered a small price to pay for avoiding bird strikes. I don't know whether the airline still does this though.

bizdev

[BOAC]

Engine number one failure on final approach, select flap 15, set go-around thrust, apply a few degrees pitch up, positive climb, gear up. All perfectly standard so far. One major Hyd pump down, but no worries.

- NO! Mis-information again.

[CV-580]

Again we see the dangers presented by avian flew.

Alright, that's my coat over there.....

CV-580

[angels]

Suzeman

The answer is quite obvious - the birds weren't squawking .....

Last night I spoke to a friend who flew out of CIA on Sunday.

She told her husband about a huge flock of starlings that were just below them (to the port) shortly after they'd flown over the airport boundary. I don't know which direction they took off in). She said she remarked to her husband she thought airports had bird scarers and thus started an inflight conversation about using birds of prey to keep flocks away.

She was quite shaken up when she saw the news last night.

[Captain Greaser]

I think people should have a positive attitude to the crew in an incident like this untill proven otherwise.Pilots are great for shooting there own profesion constatly in the foot.
For my part I would like to congradulate the crew for a job well done.

[captplaystation]

It's always good to be on the ball, but "maybe" PF was a little trigger happy?
The Capt (if indeed he took over as stated) appears to have made the right call . Perhaps taking account of the "Alfred Hitchcock" picture out the windshield he realised that one engine failure may not be the complete problem. Sometimes it is best to pause a nano-second rather than reacting instinctively. If indeed the reason for gear collapse will turn out to have been due to gear not down & locked ,as it was still sequencing down ,this slightly pre-emptive call will have been unfortunate. Having said that, if the Capt overided the F/O's decision & said " No , Land" he is also unlikely to have selected gear up. Quite important I think ,exactly the sequence of events.
A big difference is possible for Gear position & security whether it was "GO-AROUND FLAP15" "NO, I HAVE CONTROL LAND" as suggested by Greaseball Snr ,or whether it was "GO-AROUND FLAP15 "(Capt in agreement so possibly followed by Gear up ?) followed by "Woa there goes the other one I have control" CVR/FDR will answer that one easily enough even if the crew ,quite understandably ,may have slightly unclear recollections.
Normally in the event of a gear collapse Ryanair Cabin Crew are trained to consider initiating the evacuation in the absence of any command from the flight-deck. Given the distinct possibility of fuel leakage etc I would be surprised if the pilots did not wish to evacuate if the gear collapsed on landing
or during the landing roll ( unlike Limoges where an evacuation was commanded with perhaps an absence of immediate danger ) as that would be concurrent with the thinking encouraged in the training scenario at the moment. This perhaps lends a little credence to the rumour that the collapse occured after the aircraft had been stopped. Can't really imagine anyone planning a nice orderly evacuation via the stairs if they had just man-handled the aircraft along the R/W @I40KTS with one gear collapsed.
Assuming there are no bogey-men in the situation that none of us has envisaged this appears to have been one Damn good save.

[GK430]

Whether it's de-icing or birds, some seem to have such short memories when there is so much to learn from the past.

NBDC - Summary of the Hercules Crash

(Belgian A.F. C.130 accident)

One large bird or a flock of small birds can prove fatal to aircraft.
Starlings are virtually impossible to move off an airfield if they choose to stick around - you'll only move them around it.

[captplaystation]

Has anyone confirmed they were Starlings ? a previous poster has suggested Seagulls from a tip on final. Certainly the damage potential from an individual bird would be greater with the gull but Starlings possibly tip the balance by sheer weight of numbers.
There is a really nice big flock of Starlings whose favourite hang-out seems to be in the big tree at the far side of the carpark in front of the terminal in GRO. I have already "suffered" at their hands (or asses in fact ) whilst passing there, be careful at dawn & dusk guys, there are hundreds if not more in some of these flocks I have witnessed.

[NigelOnDraft]

I think some are being rather prescreptive here

Birds From a previous flying career, birdstrikes were a real hazard. "Some" advice was given to avoiding them:

1. Lights are a great benefit
2. Birds will, if they see you, try to avoid you, and are conderably more agile than you!
3. Birds will tend to "break" downwards when confronted by danger i.e. don't try to avoid birds by lowering the nose - if you must avoid pull up a little

In my airline flying I've hit a few, little damage except one damaged LP Fan on Rotation (CFM) - despite bent blades / broken spacers and N1 vib off the clock, engine ran fine. I try to avoid maneouvring for birds - when you're in that regime you are low and slow and should be stabilised. If you see enough birds ahead of you that you really consider climbing over them, I would think a GA is the best course and properly climb over them. Any other deviation will de-stabilise the approach, and if you then end up at idle <500' descending again back to the correct approach, in our outfit that's not stabilised and a compulsory GA.

Engine Fail on App - GA? Some operators may have "rules", but I would think circumstances and type are important. If your type requires a lower flap setting SE than you have for climb gradient, say, and you lose an engine, then "continuing" effectively denies you the GA option. If OTOH, like my current type, you can do SE Ldgs with Normal Flap, and there are no other significant drills / procedures, continuing maybe fine. Weather? LVPs? If, say <1000', you find yourselves "dealing with the emergency" rather than just flying the approach, then maybe a GA is a good idea.

Evacuation Our outift has altered the Evacuation for CC to only be initiated in dire circumstances - suffice to say I believe it is public knowledge that in the BA38 incident the CC did not initiate the Evacuation, and correctly so. In this incident an evacuation was not required by the circumstances (the fuselage is still inhabitable today), but I dount any of us know exactly what FRs rules are, and the exact understanding by the crew of their situation...

Just some idle thoughts

NoD

[parabellum]

At 200' I would have expected the gear to be fully locked down.

Lose an engine at 200' and wouldn't the initial reaction be to increase power on the live engine to maintain the slope? Increased engine noise easily confused with a GA I would have thought? Been a while since I flew a 737 but at 200' and losing one engine then land straight ahead in visual conditions, ASAP!

[FloWa]

Hi,
the question is: Did they ever archive positve rate without sufficent engine power? I think no, so the gear wouldn't be retracted.
I'm not (yet-currently at flightschool...) an commercial pilot

[rubik101]

BOAC, pray tell what is wrong with the scenario I painted? I was merely stating the SOPs and what might have occurred subsequent to the decision to G/A. If you fly for Ryanair, pray tell us what the procedure should read.
Over 6000 posts and still doesn't know it all!

[Fluffy flyer]

Some people have posted that the gear only collapsed after the aircraft had come to a stop. While this may be the case in my opinion this theory doesn’t make sense as some of the pictures show that the reverse thrust was deployed.

Normal procedures are that thrust reverse is stowed at 60kts. I do stress that this is normal procedure this event was anything but normal.

Well done to the crew

[Magplug]

Engine number one failure on final approach, select flap 15, set go-around thrust, apply a few degrees pitch up, positive climb, gear up. All perfectly standard so far. One major Hyd pump down, but no worries.

BOAC is correct..... that is utter rubbish.......

Engine failure on finals:

- Disengage autothrottle
- Both power levers to TOGA - Gets you TOGA on the live engine.
- Flap 15 (Try to co-ordinate the rudder to retain the autopilot if it is in)
- Continue descending down the ILS whilst accelerating.
- On reaching Top Bug (vref +15) continue the approach or announce go-around at the Captain's discretion.

If the live engine will not give you at least 70% N1 (cos it's full of birds) then lower the nose and try to crash as gently as possible.

Normal procedures are that thrust reverse is stowed at 60kts. I do stress that this is normal procedure this event was anything but normal.

More rubbish.... By 60 kts the reversers must be back at reverse idle it is not required that they should be stowed i.e. at forward idle. On landing selecting forward idle at 60 kts will cause the aircraft to accelerate (albeit gently) at a time when you are using the brakes to bring the speed under control. Reverse idle must be selected by 60 kts to prevent reingestion of hot gasses from the exhaust and ingestion of stones and other FOD from the ground surface.

[BOAC]

Well, Rubik - firstly I do not fly for Ryanair so I stand to be corrected. It is not the only correct action, that is what is wrong with it. I.E. They are not the 'normal' SOPs. You say you are a '737 pilot'. I suggest you have a look at the recommended actions for engine failure on final approach (for every company I have known) before your next sim check - if your company INSIST on an automatic g/a regardless of conditions then:-

a) I apologise
b) I am staggered.

For the benefit of our readers, I quote from the manufacture's procedure (for the -800 series):

Engine Failure On Final Approach

737-800, 737-900
If an engine failure should occur on final approach with the flaps in the landing
position, the decision to continue the approach or execute a go-around should be
made immediately.If the approach is continued and sufficient thrust is available,
continue the approach with landing flaps. If the approach is continued and
sufficient thrust is not available for landing flaps, retract the flaps to 15 and adjust
thrust on the operating engine. Speed should be increased to 20 knots over the
previously set flaps 30 or 40 VREF. This sets a command speed that is equal to
at least VREF for flaps 15. Wind additives should be added as needed, if time and
conditions permit.

If a go-around is required, maintain the additional speed, select flaps 1 and follow

the engine out go-around procedures. Subsequent flap retraction should be made
at a safe altitude and in level flight or a shallow climb.


Just seen Magplug's post. We may not know it all, but we do know our procedures - and MP has only 295 posts!


Edited to add the missing bits for completeness.

[Tee Emm]

Disengage autothrottle
- Both power levers to TOGA - Gets you TOGA on the live engine

There is no need to open the live engine to go-around power. The combination of full power and bringing flap to 15 while descending on the glide slope will generally guarantee a rapid increase of airspeed well beyond the desired speed for a flap 15 landing. The technique is to use sufficient thrust to accelerate to and maintain the desired airspeed. The Boeing FCTM also states you can land with current landing flap if performance permits.

[virginblue]

Some people have posted that the gear only collapsed after the aircraft had come to a stop. While this may be the case in my opinion this theory doesn’t make sense as some of the pictures show that the reverse thrust was deployed.

Maybe a misunderstanding. A passenger said - in a German newspaper - that after the aircraft had come to a stop, it dropped further to the left when passengers were about to begin evacuation. So probably the gear collapsed after touchdown and then collapsed further when the plane had come to a complete stop.