Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Ryanair incident Ciampino.

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Ryanair incident Ciampino.

Old 11th Nov 2008, 10:47
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The decision to continue or to Go around should be made immediately.

So if, having decided and initiated the Go around and the subsequent sequence of events was as I described, what is wrong with my first post?

Thank you for the advice, btw.
rubik101 is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 10:48
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
More rubbish.... By 60 kts the reversers must be back at reverse idle it is not required that they should be stowed i.e. at forward idle
Well, not quite. The FCTM states maintain reverse thrust as required until the airspeed approaches 60 knots and then start reducing reverse thrust so the levers are at the reverse idle position by taxi speed. The levers should be fully down after the engines have decelerated to idle (23 percent N1).
Tee Emm is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 10:54
  #183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Over the Moon
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You do not need to accelerate before initiating the go around. To suggest you do is dangerous rubbish. Try reading the FCTM on the subject.

How else do you think you might survive an engine failure in LVPs still IMC at 100' rad alt on a fail passive aircraft.

If you decide you want to continue an approach on which you have suffered an engine failure you have 2 options.

1. Stick with your land flap if you assess you have enough thrust margin.

2. Select Flap 15 and accellerate to Vref +20 ie white bug plus 5

Option 1 works best close in and if you are relatively light. Option 2 works well if you are a little way out and will give you time to think and you retain the option to go around from what would then be a faster speed.

Oh and if you do continue with Flap 15 DO NOT HIT TOGA to accelerate. Firstly your speed will ramp up way too quick and secondly you will lose your flight director guidance for the approach you still want to fly as they will command a go around.

If you decide not to continue then you can initiate an immediate go around without the need to accelerate down the slope first.

Last edited by Ashling; 11th Nov 2008 at 11:04.
Ashling is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 11:03
  #184 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,098
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"You do not need to accelerate before initiating the go around. To suggest you do is dangerous rubbish. " .....unless you are in a B744 with two out on the same side!

Why all this speculation about the reverser on the #1 engine? it had failed.
parabellum is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 11:06
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Over the Moon
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry parabellum I should have stated that I meant in a 737.
Ashling is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 11:36
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: London, U.K.
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
instrument readings & tapes

For the amateurs/wannabes/non-jet pilots like me, could the seasoned folks explain what typical engine indications one would expect for turbofans after birdstrike or multiple birdstrikes/FOD? (Assuming that you do not see/hear or feel it...)

Also, how likely is it that the fire alarm goes off after a bird strike? My understanding was that latest generation of turbo fans are quite resilient to bird strikes/FOD - are there reported incidents when there was no vibration or significant loss of engine power on turbo-fans after a bird-strike?

Question to the folks that had many bird strikes: Do you generally see them coming and feel/hear the impact or have you had incidents where you only discovered it via instrument readings or on the ground?

Finally, are there any scanning/radio enthusiasts around Rome that may have taped the Tower when this happened? Would be great to listen to it. I think given that no-one got (seriously) hurt and that it seemed to have been very well managed by the crew, Ryanair and aviation authorities should publish CVR/FDR tapes - I am sure there is a lot to learn from them for many a pilot.

Thx for your help!
Uncle Maxwell
uncle_maxwell is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 13:12
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Now at Home
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Assumed you have a bird strike on final:

1. you continue to land
2. you make a normal landing
3. you taxi to the apron
4. you shut down the engines
5. you call maintenance

end of procedure

a.)why to exit the runway into the green
b.)why destroying the main gear
c.)why stopping almost at the end of a loong rwy

Did someone try to circumnavigate the flocks of birds on final, so became unstable, continued because was committed to land. could be one or the only reason for a), b), c)

need advice
Airbus_a321 is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 13:28
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: craggy island parochial house
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
aaaaaaaagggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

have to agree with some of the posters who say that this thread has gone off the subject matter and is making for some ridiculous reading and frankly quiet irritating,people talking about go arounds in gliders vintage cars



currently a340, ex 738 with the ryans

hey airbus needing advice,

1-5 happens in the perfect world mupppppppet
a,b,c happens when the initial plan might have changed and a split second decision was made to land the aircraft after realising that there might not have been sufficient thrust developing from the one remaining engine its called airmanship/knowledge of the situation/lateral thinking call it what you will but if you are an a321 jockey let me know who you fly for and i will never purchase a ticket with them!!!!!

my advice to you is take your head out of the sand and get it into your manuals :ugh

Last edited by Jetdriver; 11th Nov 2008 at 13:42.
Capt Ted Crilly is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 13:41
  #189 (permalink)  
MPH
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Both sides of 40W
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If, this incident happened on short final and 1 engine flamed out or suffered severe damage. The crew could had severeal chioces. 1) continue the approach selecting falps to 15 and applying sufficent power to attain vref40+20 (or vref30+20)and continue to land. They would have probably been using flaps 40 with min of brakes 2 or 3 for Ciampino at the weight they were carrying >(160pax).
2) The other would have ben to make a go-around if, initially only 1 eng. had failed. But, by the looks of it, they very quickly found out that the 2nd eng was failing in power due, to the bird ingestions. In my opinion they took the right action and decided to land. How the landing profile and manouver was carried out is up to andybodyīs imagination. But, it must be said that if, it happened in the way described, they made a very good decision and bravo. I would not like to imagine what would have happened on T/O in same scenario and both engines had failed!!!
Having said this, a look into the bird scare control at this airport should be scrutinized as, bird strikes at this and other airports in Europe and at certain times of the year are common. I know that at some airports measures have been taken i.e. lazer beams (ground level: BVA) shotguns, cars etc. this apart from the normal procedure of turning on your WX radar and all lights. Experience in some cases dictates certain actions. This, by all acounts was one of them!!!
MPH is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:00
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of France
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RUBIC v BOAC

I think that Rubik should check the flying career and background of BOAC before making his comments.
Many of us wish that we had half of BOAC's experience.

Unless you have sat in the hot seat during a full emergency, you should not speculate as to what happened in those final seconds. You have no idea of what it is like to make a split second decision that could be life saving, especially when there are no SOP's for certain emergency situations.
Well done to the Ryanair crew.
Regards,
FANGIO
Fangio is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:10
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The sheer ammount of starlings this time of the year at Ciampino have to be seen to be believed.
Thousands of them whirl around in a huge close formation looking like a gigantic fast moving black apparition, it is a most spectacular sight.
They roost in the trees around the terminal car park and if you leave your vehicle under one of them the next morning it's covered in a most obnoxious mess.
It must have been a most unpleasant sight / feeling to suddenly have the windscreen filled not with a few birds but thousands of them.
Not to mention the noise of them hitting the airframe, it's bad enough when only two or three hit.
Well done to the crew.

Current 737-800

Last edited by aerobat; 11th Nov 2008 at 14:14. Reason: bad spelin
aerobat is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:34
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
just to add a twist to this, I understand that the aircraft rolled 360 degrees due to damage and it was this that caused the landing gear to fail. this info comes from a ground handler who saw this happen.
pilot999 is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:42
  #193 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 4,167
Received 234 Likes on 72 Posts
Somebody has to say it: "Cheap Ryanair operation, 50p for a ticket, what do you expect, bird scaring as well?"

Dreadful scenario, handled by the crew in the best possible manner. Full marks to them. Hope I would have done as well.

(retired 737 driver)
Herod is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:44
  #194 (permalink)  

Rotate on this!
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Aberdeen
Age: 64
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"just to add a twist to this, I understand that the aircraft rolled 360 degrees due to damage and it was this that caused the landing gear to fail. this info comes from a ground handler who saw this happen."


Grabs popcorn
SLFguy is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:45
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning
Age: 63
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can I just remind posters of an earlier post by Greasecap Senior;

Ryan air birdhit Rome

Gents: to get it clear
Greasecap JR was PF
Fatcts:
at 200 ft on short final at (100752LT nov) CIO a multple bird hit occurred on a RYR flight from Frankfurt Hahn to Rome Ciampino.
More than 200 birdhits were counted (afterwards)
Engine nr 1 stopped (no power)
TOGA initated by PF, captain took over and after (0,020sec) engine nr 2 stopped
Put him down on the runway (a bit hard as you can see)
However NO CASUALTIES at landing (7 persons were taken into hospital due to neck complaints)
Crew did a perfect job
No paint programs were used to modify the photo or any ropes were used to evacuate the crew the crew asked for stairs to evacuate the passengers
The slide and the doors were openend by the recue services (see photo)
hope this will clarify some things.
Grtsz
Greasecap senior
I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of this post so what we had here was >200 birdstrikes and a double engine failure at 200ft on short finals. Well done to the crew for landing safely.
Porrohman is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:45
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FR 737 Captain.

Lots of speculation here, interspersed with some fact.

What do we know?

Reasonably heavy jet....160 pax + tankering fuel to CIA (SOP) landing weight would be in the order of 63 tonnes. That is based on m knowledge of the fleet weights, our SOP on max tankering fuel on landing and our standard pax and bag weight.

Normal landing at CIA is Flap 40, Autobrake 2 or 3, depending on surface wind and brake cooling requirement.

We don't know when the birdstrike(s) occurred i.e speed, config, height, distance to runway.

We don't know whether the strikes were sequential i.e the intensity increased with time or simultaneous i.e they whole flock struck at once.

We don't know if the crew could see even more birds between them and runway.

We don't know if the engine failed / ran down immediately or "coughed" a few times before it quit.

We do know, however, that the crew were faced with two options - land or go- around.

They were there: their actions were based on processing a vast amount of data in a very short period of time and taking the appropriate corrective action.

They did an excellent job of getting the aircraft on the ground with NO loss of life and minimal injury.

And finally, old mag wossname, applying TOGA thrust to live, retracting the Flap to 15, accelerating to V2 +20 whilst maintaining GP and CL, all the while probably ducking instinctively as the windscreen is peppered with birds is a pretty demanding cardtrick. Deep breath, calm down, be grateful it wasn't you.
The Real Slim Shady is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:46
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: commuter
Age: 43
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
you mean he did a barrel roll? the airplane stopped at end of rwy 15, right on touchdown zone rwy 33, without seeing the signs on the rwy we cannot say what it did but 360 degrees in a 46mt wide rwy it is possible only at 15kts and if not, he went out of rwy...so anybody saw sign of grass incursion? that is what they initially reported anyways....maybe deeper down that was truth in it.
D
Damianik is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:49
  #198 (permalink)  
FR-
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MIA-IBZ
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
When Cabin Crew Can Initiate the Evacuation.

Cabin Crew can initiate the evacuation when the situation is CLEARLY
CATASROPHIC.
These situations are:
1. An obvious self-sustaining major fire either inside or outside the aircraft.
2. Dense smoke in the cabin
3. An unusually exaggerated nose-down, tail-down or wing-down attitude,
where remaining on board could cause injury or death.
4. Sounds which would indicate the breaking up of the aircraft.
5. Ditching e.g. landing in water.
6. The flight crew becoming incapacitated.
FR- is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 14:50
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: craggy island parochial house
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
dam you daminak

i think it was meant to be a joke the barrel roll that is........

someone have a word pls
Capt Ted Crilly is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2008, 16:00
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: LONDON England
Age: 52
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not sure but I think BOAC does know a bit about the 73. Chief pilot on the type and probably about 12,000 hours on it. Be warned Rubik.
autothrottle is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.