Ryanair incident Ciampino.
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Originally Posted by Flattering Fangio
I think that Rubik should check the flying career and background of BOAC before making his comments.
Originally Posted by MPH
The other would have ben to make a go-around if, initially only 1 eng. had failed. But, by the looks of it, they very quickly found out that the 2nd eng was failing in power due, to the bird ingestions. In my opinion they took the right action and decided to land.
Multiple choice question perhaps?As always, we are inundated with 'guff' from those who 'claim to know'.
I prefer here to quote the published procedures so there can be no confusion.For 'The Real Slim Shady' - I'm pretty sure old mag wossname has got more experience of 'hairy situations' and 'pretty demanding cardtricks' than you think, but I'm sure he will treasure your advice.
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Where is motor mouth O'Leary?
When BA had a very similiar accident during the summer, Willy Walsh called a press conference and praised the pilots and crew for their actions on the day. Walsh has a modicum of respect for his workers.
Hell will freeze over before O'Leary gives the least credit to a pilot for saving his sorry ass. Even a publicity whore like him will resist that angle.
When BA had a very similiar accident during the summer, Willy Walsh called a press conference and praised the pilots and crew for their actions on the day. Walsh has a modicum of respect for his workers.
Hell will freeze over before O'Leary gives the least credit to a pilot for saving his sorry ass. Even a publicity whore like him will resist that angle.
The Real Slim Shady
Working from the quote above
Somebody earlier asked about what engine symptoms might the pilot experience:
1) Possible felt vibration due to fan damage (small birds small damage)
2) Engine surge (boom boom)
3) N1 N2 winding down (power loss)
4) EGT going throughy the roof and unresponsive to the throttle (classic non-recoverable engine surge)
5) EGT dropping (classic flame out and quite rare)
While it is possible that one engine had different combinations of symptoms than the other, the lack of responsiveness to the throttle typically dooms the flight at such a low altitude as being discussed.
I tend to read by all the comments about the crew either as heros or villans since they are probably faced with very quick decison making by the seat of their pants.
The issue should be on the capability of the engines vs the need for avoidance of the hazard.
Lots of speculation here, interspersed with some fact.
What do we know?
Reasonably heavy jet....160 pax + tankering fuel to CIA (SOP) landing weight would be in the order of 63 tonnes. That is based on m knowledge of the fleet weights, our SOP on max tankering fuel on landing and our standard pax and bag weight.
Normal landing at CIA is Flap 40, Autobrake 2 or 3, depending on surface wind and brake cooling requirement.
We don't know when the birdstrike(s) occurred i.e speed, config, height, distance to runway.
We don't know whether the strikes were sequential i.e the intensity increased with time or simultaneous i.e they whole flock struck at once.
We don't know if the crew could see even more birds between them and runway.
We don't know if the engine failed / ran down immediately or "coughed" a few times before it quit.
We do know, however, that the crew were faced with two options - land or go- around.
They were there: their actions were based on processing a vast amount of data in a very short period of time and taking the appropriate corrective action.
What do we know?
Reasonably heavy jet....160 pax + tankering fuel to CIA (SOP) landing weight would be in the order of 63 tonnes. That is based on m knowledge of the fleet weights, our SOP on max tankering fuel on landing and our standard pax and bag weight.
Normal landing at CIA is Flap 40, Autobrake 2 or 3, depending on surface wind and brake cooling requirement.
We don't know when the birdstrike(s) occurred i.e speed, config, height, distance to runway.
We don't know whether the strikes were sequential i.e the intensity increased with time or simultaneous i.e they whole flock struck at once.
We don't know if the crew could see even more birds between them and runway.
We don't know if the engine failed / ran down immediately or "coughed" a few times before it quit.
We do know, however, that the crew were faced with two options - land or go- around.
They were there: their actions were based on processing a vast amount of data in a very short period of time and taking the appropriate corrective action.
Somebody earlier asked about what engine symptoms might the pilot experience:
1) Possible felt vibration due to fan damage (small birds small damage)
2) Engine surge (boom boom)
3) N1 N2 winding down (power loss)
4) EGT going throughy the roof and unresponsive to the throttle (classic non-recoverable engine surge)
5) EGT dropping (classic flame out and quite rare)
While it is possible that one engine had different combinations of symptoms than the other, the lack of responsiveness to the throttle typically dooms the flight at such a low altitude as being discussed.
I tend to read by all the comments about the crew either as heros or villans since they are probably faced with very quick decison making by the seat of their pants.
The issue should be on the capability of the engines vs the need for avoidance of the hazard.
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lomapaseo
The issue should be on the capability of the engines vs the need for avoidance of the hazard.
The issue should be on the capability of the engines vs the need for avoidance of the hazard.
Until the facts are known the rights and perceived wrongs should not be bandied around.
Avoidance of any hazard is relative to the time interval between the hazard being presented and avoiding action being initiated and the airplane responding.
In reality the issue should be the adequacy, or otherwise, of the airports we all fly in to.
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bird strike/FOD - possible engine symptoms
Thank you for answering some of my questions LomaPaseo!
For those that have not seen it yet, there is some good footage of birdstrike on take-off (at about V1 it seems?) by a Thomson B757 including sound bites:
Aviation Video: Boeing 757-200 - Thomsonfly
Does anyone know whether CIA has cameras installed and if there is footage of the landing? Or maybe some plane-spotters that were there at the time?
(There was a plane spotter when the B777 incident happened at Heathrow and he took some quite good pictures.)
More questions on the engine surge or flame-out after birdstrike/FOD: Is it a binary decision the pilot should make (i.e. engine either working or not) or would one assume an engine as being good enough (for a G/A, say) if it still delivers a certain N1 value or performs within certain parameters? This might be a stupid question, but is there any chance of attempting to restart an engine that had a surge (assuming you got enough time and altitude)?
For those that have not seen it yet, there is some good footage of birdstrike on take-off (at about V1 it seems?) by a Thomson B757 including sound bites:
Aviation Video: Boeing 757-200 - Thomsonfly
Does anyone know whether CIA has cameras installed and if there is footage of the landing? Or maybe some plane-spotters that were there at the time?
(There was a plane spotter when the B777 incident happened at Heathrow and he took some quite good pictures.)
More questions on the engine surge or flame-out after birdstrike/FOD: Is it a binary decision the pilot should make (i.e. engine either working or not) or would one assume an engine as being good enough (for a G/A, say) if it still delivers a certain N1 value or performs within certain parameters? This might be a stupid question, but is there any chance of attempting to restart an engine that had a surge (assuming you got enough time and altitude)?
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BOAC: Not a multiple choice...just a split second decision that was well made!
I have been in similar situations and a lot of things happen at once, even more so, if it entails, this amount of birds!! First one engine then the other fluctuating..not much time to analyse, especialy at those heights!!!
I have been in similar situations and a lot of things happen at once, even more so, if it entails, this amount of birds!! First one engine then the other fluctuating..not much time to analyse, especialy at those heights!!!
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When I was working in Flight Ops at BHX the crews used to give me the remains of the offending critters in the post flight docs. We were supposed to send them off for analysis.
Anything larger than a pigeon can be quite a hazzard. Herring Gulls seem to be the main problem around cities as they feed on the landfil sites. These are nice 2-3lb birds. Flocks of starlings are huge in number, but are easily spotted by ground controllers.
My friend saw the BA B747 ingest a Heron on 27R at LHR about 10 years ago. That left its jet cone on the tarmac.
Montreal Dorval has a raptor programme to clear birds. Pyros and loudspeakers are less effective these days.
A BA 747 collided with a flock of snow geese a few years back out of Montreal.
Anything larger than a pigeon can be quite a hazzard. Herring Gulls seem to be the main problem around cities as they feed on the landfil sites. These are nice 2-3lb birds. Flocks of starlings are huge in number, but are easily spotted by ground controllers.
My friend saw the BA B747 ingest a Heron on 27R at LHR about 10 years ago. That left its jet cone on the tarmac.
Montreal Dorval has a raptor programme to clear birds. Pyros and loudspeakers are less effective these days.
A BA 747 collided with a flock of snow geese a few years back out of Montreal.
Last edited by MSAW_CFIT; 11th Nov 2008 at 18:46.
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I do recall the Alitalia emergency landing (Cagliari) after ATC closed the airport due to birds.
Uncle maxwell
It's best to treat a question like this in generalities in a Tech section lest some folks jump into the mess with judgemental calls on the pilots actions in this incident.
But with some apprehension at being misunderstood I'll try to answer.
Technically even an engine which is running down with EGT through the roof can be restarted if it is not severely damaged. You have to cycle the fuel cutoff to do this before the N2 spins very far down. I just don't believe that in situations demanding knowledge, skill and "Fly-the-Aircraft-First responses you have any time to think outside boxes.
More questions on the engine surge or flame-out after birdstrike/FOD: Is it a binary decision the pilot should make (i.e. engine either working or not) or would one assume an engine as being good enough (for a G/A, say) if it still delivers a certain N1 value or performs within certain parameters? This might be a stupid question, but is there any chance of attempting to restart an engine that had a surge (assuming you got enough time and altitude)?
But with some apprehension at being misunderstood I'll try to answer.
Technically even an engine which is running down with EGT through the roof can be restarted if it is not severely damaged. You have to cycle the fuel cutoff to do this before the N2 spins very far down. I just don't believe that in situations demanding knowledge, skill and "Fly-the-Aircraft-First responses you have any time to think outside boxes.
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Some irritated aviators seem very weary about speculations issued on this thread, nobody knows so nobody should speak !
Anyway, if the account of the accident is right the A/C was at 200 ft when the birdstrikes occurred.
Good weather, copilot PF, he was most certainly flying manual at this height.(I flew FR 738 in CIA quite a few times)
What if the TOGA action every body take for a decision to go around was simply a reflex action when experiencing loss of power.
This happened to me once flying a Jaguar, hitting a big bird in finals, pushing the thottles forward, hearing the multiple bangs of engine surge, looking inside and landing on the good engine remaining.
That's probably what happened when the PF pushed the throttles forward, except that he was left with no engine and landed with poor visibility to the front due to the stains of blood on the windscreen.
Well done chaps.
Anyway, if the account of the accident is right the A/C was at 200 ft when the birdstrikes occurred.
Good weather, copilot PF, he was most certainly flying manual at this height.(I flew FR 738 in CIA quite a few times)
What if the TOGA action every body take for a decision to go around was simply a reflex action when experiencing loss of power.
This happened to me once flying a Jaguar, hitting a big bird in finals, pushing the thottles forward, hearing the multiple bangs of engine surge, looking inside and landing on the good engine remaining.
That's probably what happened when the PF pushed the throttles forward, except that he was left with no engine and landed with poor visibility to the front due to the stains of blood on the windscreen.
Well done chaps.
Baron Rouge
Yup and now we add yet another post of discussion
Some irritated aviators seem very weary about speculations issued on this thread, nobody knows so nobody should speak !
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Have the overwing exits on 737-800s been changed by Boeing in the last year or so? The newest 737 I've flown on is an FR 737-800 in the EI-DLx series which had emergency cards showing the window exit had to be detached and discarded yet the aircraft in this incident clearly has a hinged exit.
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ALL B737NGs (including EI-DLX) have overwing exit doors, which open springloaded upwards. When the B737NG was designed, tthe FAA decided that they wouldn't allow the old plug type door used on the B737 classic anymore (AFAIK based on the Manchester disaster), as too difficult to handle for people not used to it in an emergency.
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from MD11 Engineer
You can see in the picture that both the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder have been pulled. They are the two orange boxes between the suitcases in front of the truck on the left side. This picture must have been taken a while after the accident.
You can see in the picture that both the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder have been pulled. They are the two orange boxes between the suitcases in front of the truck on the left side. This picture must have been taken a while after the accident.
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Rosun wrote:
Are you sure? They look like the captain's & FO lunch boxes to me
Are you sure? They look like the captain's & FO lunch boxes to me
mercurydancer wrote:
That's a lot of snow on the ground for Rome.
That's a lot of snow on the ground for Rome.
I think it's foam, or any other fire extinguishing media that is used today...
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philbkyHave the overwing exits on 737-800s been changed by Boeing in the last year or so? The newest 737 I've flown on is an FR 737-800 in the EI-DLx series which had emergency cards showing the window exit had to be detached and discarded yet the aircraft in this incident clearly has a hinged exit.
All the Fr800 have had the same emergency exit i.e flip up and out.
The Fr aircraft which had the overwing you mention would have been on the 737-200.
All the Fr800 have had the same emergency exit i.e flip up and out.
The Fr aircraft which had the overwing you mention would have been on the 737-200.