Ryanair incident Ciampino.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe, though I'm not sure, that the design of the cranked handle on the DV window is to allow the window to be opened while pressurised, working as a lever for the first few mm until the seal is broken. I have been told that, and it makes sense, I just don't know how accurate that information is.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Somewhere
Age: 57
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Open Window - is likely to assess the damage, the first visual indication the Captain will get of what the damage is.
I notice a few comments, based purely on the speculation, that one engine sufferend bird ingestion, then a missed approach was initiated then aborted after second engine suffered ingestion. Just assuming, and this is mere speculation, that this was the case, I have seen 3 people comment, "well I would have just landed it after first engine suffered problems".
Well you wouldn't, people follow SOP's.
The Boeing flight crew training manual says, that in the event of an engine failure on final approach, you may continue or go-around, to continue you must first have full control of the aircaft and assuming you do, which is no mean feet in the final few hundred feet, you will now be back at approach speed (Vfly) for flap 30 or 40 you must fly at least Vref + 20 kts. You would also need now to be damn sure your aircraft could now land within the runway length available. and Ciampinio is not the longest.
In Ryanair, crews are taught to go-around with a single engine malfuntion, to deal with the issue, to assess all information, landing distance and then to set up for a single engine (flap15) landing. this would be a non event and is trained by crews repeatedly.
This with a single engine failure is the safest course of action.
now again, this based purely on assumptions made of actual events on this site.
But if first engine ingested birds and failed, then crew followed safest course of action in that split second by initiating go-around, after second engine strike they again followed safest and now only course of action in sticking it on ground.
If all this rumour, is true then Double engine trouble on a twin on short finals is not a place you want to be and getting out at all is a job well done.
I notice a few comments, based purely on the speculation, that one engine sufferend bird ingestion, then a missed approach was initiated then aborted after second engine suffered ingestion. Just assuming, and this is mere speculation, that this was the case, I have seen 3 people comment, "well I would have just landed it after first engine suffered problems".
Well you wouldn't, people follow SOP's.
The Boeing flight crew training manual says, that in the event of an engine failure on final approach, you may continue or go-around, to continue you must first have full control of the aircaft and assuming you do, which is no mean feet in the final few hundred feet, you will now be back at approach speed (Vfly) for flap 30 or 40 you must fly at least Vref + 20 kts. You would also need now to be damn sure your aircraft could now land within the runway length available. and Ciampinio is not the longest.
In Ryanair, crews are taught to go-around with a single engine malfuntion, to deal with the issue, to assess all information, landing distance and then to set up for a single engine (flap15) landing. this would be a non event and is trained by crews repeatedly.
This with a single engine failure is the safest course of action.
now again, this based purely on assumptions made of actual events on this site.
But if first engine ingested birds and failed, then crew followed safest course of action in that split second by initiating go-around, after second engine strike they again followed safest and now only course of action in sticking it on ground.
If all this rumour, is true then Double engine trouble on a twin on short finals is not a place you want to be and getting out at all is a job well done.
ManAdaSystem:
There is nothing wrong with my eyesight. I still hold a Class One medical and I can spot a glider in a thermal underneath a cumulus at 5 nms.
The point I was trying to make was that although we would all instinctively try to avoid hitting a bird, the control reaction available to us in large aircraft is simply less than that of the bird concerned. I have seen many birds coming and have tried to avoid them but that has not prevented a collision.
The last bird strike that I can remember happened on a beautiful summer's Sunday afternoon. At 100 feet on finals, a sparrowhawk (or something very similar) came out of the grass just beside the PAPIs and flew in front of me.
Are you seriously suggesting that your superior eyesight would have allowed you to avoid it at 100 feet?
Sadly, we hit it and the dead carcass was presented to me on the flightdeck when we shut down a few minutes later.
By the way, I used to operate the DC-10 in and out of Ciampino.
aw ditor:
What is a Gloucester Meteor? I don't recall using anything but Gloster Meteor.
There is nothing wrong with my eyesight. I still hold a Class One medical and I can spot a glider in a thermal underneath a cumulus at 5 nms.
The point I was trying to make was that although we would all instinctively try to avoid hitting a bird, the control reaction available to us in large aircraft is simply less than that of the bird concerned. I have seen many birds coming and have tried to avoid them but that has not prevented a collision.
The last bird strike that I can remember happened on a beautiful summer's Sunday afternoon. At 100 feet on finals, a sparrowhawk (or something very similar) came out of the grass just beside the PAPIs and flew in front of me.
Are you seriously suggesting that your superior eyesight would have allowed you to avoid it at 100 feet?
Sadly, we hit it and the dead carcass was presented to me on the flightdeck when we shut down a few minutes later.
By the way, I used to operate the DC-10 in and out of Ciampino.
aw ditor:
What is a Gloucester Meteor? I don't recall using anything but Gloster Meteor.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Botty Trotty's post is entirely accurate, but doesn't this illustrate the problem with modern airlines' belief that they can distil everything into a manual and SOPs? By enforcing a single engine go-around procedure, rather than letting the Captain decide for himself, this could easily have resulted in the second engine failing a moment later and the aircraft being unable to land on the airfield, with much more severe consequences.
SOPs are important, but so is airmanship, and the latter is being sidelined, eroded and even prohibited.
SOPs are important, but so is airmanship, and the latter is being sidelined, eroded and even prohibited.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, it's a silly discussion, but if I see birds between me and the runway, I will take the required action to avoid them. Going one dot high in order to do so is not a dangerous manouver. I've avoided birds on takeoff by lowering the nose so as not to climb into them.
If it pops up 20 feet in front of me on approach, it's dead.
If it pops up 20 feet in front of me on approach, it's dead.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whippersnapper - in the event of an engine failure on final approach, a go-around is not 'enforced' by the flight crew training manual but is generally considered the better option in most circumstances. To continue the approach to landing the pilot is required to retract the flap to 15, accelerate the aircraft to Vref 40+20 (by adding thrust on the operative engine with associated control issues) and get the aircraft stabilised for a landing by the landing gate - 500 feet agl.
ManAdaSystem:
Yes, it IS a silly discussion (which you started).
I am unable to determine what sort of aircraft you normally fly because your profile says simply "N/A".
To get it in context, if I saw a seagull coming at me in my PA-28 (which I fly for fun) at 100 feet, I would do everything in my vocabulary to avoid it but if the same seagull came up at me whilst doing my day job at 100 feet, I would have to hope that it got out of the way for no other good reason but its own sense of survival.
Yes, it IS a silly discussion (which you started).
I am unable to determine what sort of aircraft you normally fly because your profile says simply "N/A".
To get it in context, if I saw a seagull coming at me in my PA-28 (which I fly for fun) at 100 feet, I would do everything in my vocabulary to avoid it but if the same seagull came up at me whilst doing my day job at 100 feet, I would have to hope that it got out of the way for no other good reason but its own sense of survival.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Somewhere
Age: 57
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whippersnapper, what the SOP's will tell you, is that the SOP's cannot govern every situation and that in some situation captains discetion will be needed as may a departure from prescibed operating procedures in order to continue safely.
Before, this may get out of hand, lets not forget this chain of events is all presumtuous at this stage, there is no eveidence this was the chain of events, even more so, of what time delay may have been between engines 1 and 2 suffering power losses, to back up the "lets just wait a seond and see what happens" after loss of thrust on eng 1 indications. I can tell you first hand, that in Ryanair, airmanship is not prohibited or sidelined.
The training is excellent. and very safety orientated.
You cannot however legislate every senario and todays may have been one such.
Now merely for arguments sake if you had just one engine full of birds, and shove the nose down, stick it on the ground and go off the runway, then questions will be asked as to why? it would be by far the least safest course of action
at few hundred'ish feet AGL you don't have time to discuss all the stages of your descision making model.
engine failure engine 1, big yaw'ing moment, speed decreasing.... thats as much time as its taken you to read that statement, that you would have to control the aircraft and make a descision based on split second info(which you will review again later) go-around, suddenly fire bell engine 2, new underpants, new info, new descision, disconnect.
Its so easy sitting here, there but for the grace of God go I.
Before, this may get out of hand, lets not forget this chain of events is all presumtuous at this stage, there is no eveidence this was the chain of events, even more so, of what time delay may have been between engines 1 and 2 suffering power losses, to back up the "lets just wait a seond and see what happens" after loss of thrust on eng 1 indications. I can tell you first hand, that in Ryanair, airmanship is not prohibited or sidelined.
The training is excellent. and very safety orientated.
You cannot however legislate every senario and todays may have been one such.
Now merely for arguments sake if you had just one engine full of birds, and shove the nose down, stick it on the ground and go off the runway, then questions will be asked as to why? it would be by far the least safest course of action
at few hundred'ish feet AGL you don't have time to discuss all the stages of your descision making model.
engine failure engine 1, big yaw'ing moment, speed decreasing.... thats as much time as its taken you to read that statement, that you would have to control the aircraft and make a descision based on split second info(which you will review again later) go-around, suddenly fire bell engine 2, new underpants, new info, new descision, disconnect.
Its so easy sitting here, there but for the grace of God go I.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The other London...
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B737NG Pilot. It sounds and looks like it was a larger flock of birds, and they might have seen it early enough that they figured avoidance was possible with less than aggressive pitch changes, which in turn might have put them high on the slope. There is a difference between seeing ONE bird last second, and spotting a larger flock ahead by some distance. All speculation of course.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: asia
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can somebody help me by explaining? SOrry for the drift.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pressurising of the fuselage
stickyb,
If you increase the pressure differential between the aircraft fuselage and ambient air, the altitude within the cabin decreases, i.e. If the outside pressure was 14.7 psi (normal standard day) and you pressurised the aircraft by 0.1 psi, you are decreasing the altitude within the cabin. If you had some way of removing air from the cabin, and making it less than 14.7 psi, you would increase the cabin altitude.
Clear as mud..!
If you increase the pressure differential between the aircraft fuselage and ambient air, the altitude within the cabin decreases, i.e. If the outside pressure was 14.7 psi (normal standard day) and you pressurised the aircraft by 0.1 psi, you are decreasing the altitude within the cabin. If you had some way of removing air from the cabin, and making it less than 14.7 psi, you would increase the cabin altitude.
Clear as mud..!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Flightcrew and Cabin Crew should be congratulated on their professional conduct during this incident! Many Lives Saved today at CIA.
And a note to MOL the CEO of Ryanair, there is a time and a place for business, profit margins and the like...and now here is a situation where you SHOULD and are expected to acknowledge these professionals for exactly what they are, professionals! The crew of the BA Glide Approach received medals representing their outstanding performance during a very hazardous approach into Heathrow. The Ryanair Crew today demonstrated the same qualities and likewise should be given the same tribute.
So MOL, get out of your jeans and t-shirt, get on your best Louis Copeland Suit, book out the Radission for the night and invite the crew back to Dublin for a party! and go on, a few free drinks !
HighLow
And a note to MOL the CEO of Ryanair, there is a time and a place for business, profit margins and the like...and now here is a situation where you SHOULD and are expected to acknowledge these professionals for exactly what they are, professionals! The crew of the BA Glide Approach received medals representing their outstanding performance during a very hazardous approach into Heathrow. The Ryanair Crew today demonstrated the same qualities and likewise should be given the same tribute.
So MOL, get out of your jeans and t-shirt, get on your best Louis Copeland Suit, book out the Radission for the night and invite the crew back to Dublin for a party! and go on, a few free drinks !
HighLow
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The picture on post #48 shows the aircraft ended up on the piano keys pressumably at the far end of the landing runway. If so it stopped just before the end with the added retardation of collapsed gear. Appears to suggests the touchdown was well down the runway, supporting an aborted G/A.