BALPA against ID Cards - TUC Congress

[RVR27/09]

I was in favour of ID cards but with all the recent sensitive data being lost, and evidence of this data being handled in what appears to be a very casual fashion by Goverment depts, they can keep them!

[biddedout]

Manrow.

You say that BALPA are not going to be able to stop this. Well, asking for a judicial review is certainly a good starting point.

[Bruce Wayne]

I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with something to hide need fear it.

This attitude really does astound me. Also it beggars belief that people cannot grasp the reality of such a scheme.

1. The principle proponent of the ID scheme, a certain Labour minister, is the majority shareholder of the company selected to manage the ID card scheme.

2. the government has already entered into discussions to raise funds by "making the data available for individualised communication delivering value for money". in other words selling the data for marketing

3. the secondary stage of the id scheme is already in progress. which is to cross reference stored data between different agencies and groups. this is to enable the construction of profiles for individuals based on shopping habits, travel habits and anything else that is recordable.

4. the oyster card system, in use on London transport records every journey made with that card and stored. The metropolitan police have made over 250 applications for data in specific individuals movements. none have been refused.

Movement of mobile phones between cells is recorded and stored and available. yes, the movements of your cellphone are recorded and stored. This is why the government is pushing for legislation for all mobile phone numbers to be cross referenced with a passport.

5. the congestion charge cameras in London record and track vehicle movements 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and stored.

6. the use of data mining is already under development in order to profile individuals for preemption of determining 'potential' to commit crime. oh yes.. this IS under development, read the freaking news.

7. identity theft is nothing new, it has been going on for centuries. it has become more prevalent now due to the amount of data that is stored on individuals and the ease of access as this data can be accessed through many different aspects in the public domain.

8. the biometric passports and id card system chips can be read by equipment easily available in electronic retailers. this information can be read by as far away as 10 ft.

you walk though a crowd with a reader in your bag how many ID's will you be able to access and store the information from ? think about it.

9. we have all encountered incorrect information about ourselves held on computer, because it's on computer doesn't mean it is correct. but you try and get it rectified.

10. in respect of the prevention of crime or illegal immigration, this is just politics of fear. the reality is, if someone wants to engage in criminal activity, they wont be using their ID, they will be using YOURS.

11. the government has systematically proven it is incapable of managing secure data. in the past year the government has lost data on over 50 million people in this country, including armed service personnel, minors, pensioners, drivers, social security recipients and so on and so.

furthermore, the government has lied to the population about the id card system and its uses.

The id card system does nothing to negate the potential of false identity, in fact quite the opposite, it actually provides easier access for the duplication of personal data for use in untoward activities.

Are you aware that the inland revenue is provided access to store card and loyalty card information which is cross referenced with your tax information. what you spend and you nectar points, or whatever, are determined by the inland revenue if it fits with what you earn and what your disclosed savings are.

as above, if some wants engage in criminal activity, they will use YOUR identity, not their own and your identity information is too easily accessible for any benefit to reduce criminality or increase security.

Am I against ID cards. You bet. For the simple reasons;

1. the security of this country
2. for law enforcement to be effective
3. democracy and freedom of movement.
4. presumption of innocence until proven guilty, not the other way round.

Yes BALPA and everyone else should be against this. If someone wants to enagage in criminal activity at an airport, i dont want them using my ID and to be frank, neither do the police, it wastes their time and resources chasing a dead end or an innocent who has had their identity duplicated without their knowledge.

[call100]

Good Post Bruce....Good to see others have got the message...Keep it up.

[Desperate]

Bruce - an excellent post.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Very well said Bruce.

The whole idea of ID cards isn't "Big Brother" by stealth, it's implementation of "Big Brother" by a sledgehammer.

Shame on anyone who has been fooled into thinking it will somehow make everyday life safer.

[Litebulbs]

So what are we prepared to do about it? Opposition to ID cards has been raised and backed by the TUC. BALPA are opposed and the T&G side of Unite are against it, but it will come down to me and you. It will take action to stop this happening. The soft target of airport staff could completely work against the Government, if UK air transport stopped for a day.

[call100]

Lightbulb. Disappointingly the Amicus side of Unite is sitting on the fence. However, I can assure you that at grass roots level opposition is growing. The main problem is communicating with everyone and making sure they know what the ID system actually means and not just the spin.
Too many people just don't have a clue and think (as the Government hoped) that it was just another ID to add to their collection. Once informed then 99% are not in agreement and given the choice would not have one.
We are doing everything we can at all levels to oppose this and feel that we are beginning to have some effect.
Ultimately We want for some sort of ballot to oppose this with action. Then it will be down to everyone to have their say and hopefully put this into the bin it deserves to be in...
All we can do is to keep it up....

[ghgh99]

Stories about airside ID cards in today's FT and Daily Telegraph. Expect an announcement from Jacqui Smith tomorrow (6th November).

FT: Airport ID card scheme scaled back
FT.com / Home UK / UK - Airport ID card scheme scaled back

Controversial plans to make thousands of airport workers the first British nationals to be issued with biometric identity cards have been scaled back because of continuing opposition from the airline industry.

Ministers will announce tomorrow that the planned roll-out in the sector will begin next October, later than originally anticipated, and will be limited initially to an 18-month trial in two airports.

Manchester and London City airports have signed up in principle to the scheme after the government agreed to fund the trial, introducing the first wave of ID cards free of charge to the users and providing a further £500,000 towards improvements in pre-employment checks at the two airports.
Unions have voiced concerns about their members facing a £30 charge for an identity card before they can apply for an airside pass, while the industry generally remains concerned that the ID scheme will increase costs without bringing significant security benefits.

DT: First ID cards for Britons from autumn next year, Jacqui Smith to say
First ID cards for Britons from autumn next year, Jacqui Smith to say - Telegraph

Separately, it also emerged that only indigenous workers will have to have ID cards - the rules will not apply to foreign aircrew flying into and out of the UK.

Damian Green, the Tories' immigration spokesman, said: "This proposal is opposed by airport workers, and the fact that it will not apply to foreign aircrew flying into this country shows it is a complete waste of time and money.

"It will not make our airports safer, it will simply be another intrusion by a Government committed to building the surveillance state."

However a Department for Transport spokesman said: "People who work airside and have regular access to sensitive areas have their backgrounds checked before they are given an airside pass.

"Since air crew work on aircraft, they go through the airport in the same way as passengers do – including the same security checks – and so do not need an airside pass."

Anyone care to comment on that last DfT statement? Sounds like utter tosh to me. If a (say) Russian pilot doing a walk-round doesn't have "airside access", I don't know who does!

[call100]

So pilots do not need an airside pass??????????? Great news for Pilots!
Yet another example of the Government departments not having a clue.
The opposition is having some effect. Now we need the workers at Manchester and London City to say no to the system. If they don't then they will be letting down the rest of us....

[LH2]

Essentially the same news report as above, from El Reg:
Smith's airport ID card plans cut back to small pilot scheme ? The Register

...and a related story from a few days ago:
Airline industry refuses to be ID card guinea pig ? The Register

[llondel]

I did like the comment in the Register about the "small pilot" scheme. How short do you have to be to need an ID card?

[spannersatKL]

Just been a bit on this in BBC Radio 4 Today Programme, (06:50) for those who wish to listen again. Interview with a bloke from No2ID (a bit weak in fact as he did not mention the ID Database that is the real killer of this scheme). Lets keep up the pressure and lets stop this now.


(Standby for Civil Servants in Cheltenham checking my PC IP address, e-mail traffic and monitoring my use of Oyster card to get to LCY!!!!) Yes that is all possible and would be linked under this scheme....

[ShotOne]

Well done, BALPA for opposing this mad scheme. It is completely flawed in conception and is likely to be executed badly -how many hundreds of million is the National Health computer system over budget?

Lets give them a hand with some letters to our MP's; WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free

[Yarpy]

From the BALPA website:

BALPA - PILOTS RESPOND TO GOVERNMENT PLAN FOR ID CARDS

Commenting on the Home Secretary's announcement today that pilots and all other airport workers in Manchesster and London City airports will be required to have the Government's ID card from autumn next year, Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) said:

'We are not convinced that this will improve airport security.

'We are not convinced this will deal with the hotch-potch of different regulations in different airports.

'We are not convinced that this is joined up government thinking.

'We shall be discussing this issue internally and consulting with our legal team.'

Time for the mooted judicial review into whether ID Cards are 'voluntary' if you lose you job for refusing to have one!

[AllyPally]

Perhaps the way forward to stop this madness is for a BALPA member, who is close to retirement, to refuse to apply for an ID card. Then with BALPA support sue the government for preventing him from working should he be sacked.

AP

[manrow]

I'll bet your not in that position AllyPally!

Brave offer you have made there!

[AllyPally]

Actually I am very near retirement and if working out of MAN or London City would consider it very strongly. ( I'll accept your apology Manrow!). I am lucky that by the time, if ever, IDs come up north I will be retired and free to ignore the need for an ID card

AP

[biddedout]

Interesting to see that Manchester Airport are keen to help the Gvt round up some "volunteers".

Now who owns them I wonder? Local councils of course, 80- 90% labour controlled.

Not surprising that JS legged it up the M6 to ask for a few favours. I wonder what is being offered in return?


So what's in it for London City then? Can't think of anything happening in that part of the world in the next few years.

[call100]

Actually I am very near retirement and if working out of MAN or London City would consider it very strongly. ( I'll accept your apology Manrow!). I am lucky that by the time, if ever, IDs come up north I will be retired and free to ignore the need for an ID card

Actually it will not be as difficult as you think. Personally I will say no. If I am denied the right to work then the Union will have a direct dispute with the employer and will ballot for industrial action.
As we have seen in the last few days, nothing is solid in it's introduction. I believe Manchester and London Cityemployees have a dispute with their employer now as they have voluntarily signed up to the scheme.
Hopefully something will come of that. Support for them is needed. There is still a long way to go. The Government have managed to delay the implementation until after the next election. If they get back in then there will be no stopping them. If they fail then the Tories will abolish the act and New Labour will say that it's not their fault.
My God! What a poor choice of Political parties we have in the UK and not one inspiring leader amongst them.....