BALPA against ID Cards - TUC Congress
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A question for all those 'Pro ID card'. Are you Pro ID card as in a card that proves your identity or are you Pro ID card and database?
Those that approve the database part no doubt would not have minded living in East Germany and having everything about them recorded.
The Government has already added extra bodies entitled to access to Contactpoint (Your children's database) without any consultation.
I usually find that those Pro ID card people have little concept of the database and the Governments dismal record on changing the use of any law or system without consultation or agreement.
I don't worry about them as it is clear that they are in a minority.
Even if I were Pro ID, I would be against the blatant discrimination of Aviation workers.
Having met with the Home Office on the issue of ID cards I am now even more against the introduction in general and especially of the issue to aviation workers.
As it will be specifically against the law for anyone to demand to see your ID card (In the beginning) It would seem a totally pointless exercise.
We know that the system will be trialled at one UK airport initially before being rolled out to all. The Home Office say that the decision has not yet been made as to which airport. They say it would have to be one that is willing to cooperate. However, logical deduction points to Manchester, based on the fact that some new airside passes are now only being issued with a renewal date of 12 months instead of the normal 5 years. Also the fact that they are the first to introduce the full biometric system.
As for cost. £30 will be the initial cost (Rising significantly in later years) and it will be up to each individual/group/Union to negotiate with employers as the individual will be responsible for the cost. I don't think the employers are going to be happy spending hundreds of thousands on a scheme that offers absolutely no benefits especially as it will not even replace the existing security checks.
Those that approve the database part no doubt would not have minded living in East Germany and having everything about them recorded.
The Government has already added extra bodies entitled to access to Contactpoint (Your children's database) without any consultation.
I usually find that those Pro ID card people have little concept of the database and the Governments dismal record on changing the use of any law or system without consultation or agreement.
I don't worry about them as it is clear that they are in a minority.
Even if I were Pro ID, I would be against the blatant discrimination of Aviation workers.
Having met with the Home Office on the issue of ID cards I am now even more against the introduction in general and especially of the issue to aviation workers.
As it will be specifically against the law for anyone to demand to see your ID card (In the beginning) It would seem a totally pointless exercise.
We know that the system will be trialled at one UK airport initially before being rolled out to all. The Home Office say that the decision has not yet been made as to which airport. They say it would have to be one that is willing to cooperate. However, logical deduction points to Manchester, based on the fact that some new airside passes are now only being issued with a renewal date of 12 months instead of the normal 5 years. Also the fact that they are the first to introduce the full biometric system.
As for cost. £30 will be the initial cost (Rising significantly in later years) and it will be up to each individual/group/Union to negotiate with employers as the individual will be responsible for the cost. I don't think the employers are going to be happy spending hundreds of thousands on a scheme that offers absolutely no benefits especially as it will not even replace the existing security checks.
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Good point call100. Maybe we're looking at it from the wrong angle. As the airport wants the ID card, maybe they should be the one that pay for them?
whyisthat, I understand you are pro ID card, and I respect that. However, it appears that you are in a minority. The majority oppose ID cards. And that is how a democracy is supposed to work.
Cheers,
Chips
whyisthat, I understand you are pro ID card, and I respect that. However, it appears that you are in a minority. The majority oppose ID cards. And that is how a democracy is supposed to work.
Cheers,
Chips
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CC
I think you will find that most airports are not in favour of the ID card system. At least two Airport MD's have signed the letter from The British Air Transport Association. They are Birmingham and Luton Airports. I dare say the attitude of all the others will be the same.
In fact the only organisation in favour of the National ID scheme is the Government.
I think you will find that most airports are not in favour of the ID card system. At least two Airport MD's have signed the letter from The British Air Transport Association. They are Birmingham and Luton Airports. I dare say the attitude of all the others will be the same.
In fact the only organisation in favour of the National ID scheme is the Government.
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If I am forced to apply for an ID card to keep my job, what information will I have to submit to get one and how will it be verified? As far as I can see the only way for me to prove that I am who I say I am would be to offer all the other forms of ID that I currently have, which is supposedly not enough hence the reason we need ID cards. 
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Call100 & Chippie Chappy...
I'm afraid you're making the same fundamental error that many make on this subject.
It doesn't matter what airport they introduce it at first or what biometric or otherwise systems that airport has installed ..
The new National ID Card will not need to be carried by you at work as it will not be requested or required for airside access.
You will continue to use your present airside ID ... the two identification methods are not related or connected
Other than by the holder ... the govt. simply intend to make it a condition of being issued with an airside pass that you hold a National ID Card.
They could just have easily and rationally decided that it would be holding library card that would require a National ID Card
I'm afraid you're making the same fundamental error that many make on this subject.
It doesn't matter what airport they introduce it at first or what biometric or otherwise systems that airport has installed ..
The new National ID Card will not need to be carried by you at work as it will not be requested or required for airside access.
You will continue to use your present airside ID ... the two identification methods are not related or connected
Other than by the holder ... the govt. simply intend to make it a condition of being issued with an airside pass that you hold a National ID Card.
They could just have easily and rationally decided that it would be holding library card that would require a National ID Card
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whyisthat - BALPA input
whyisthat -
I too am a BALPA member, and utterly opposed to ID cards. Your opinion is just as valid as mine (although I believe you are in a very small minority indeed).
The BALPA NEC and others have discussed IDs and the overwhelming consensus there too is opposition to them. If there were significant dissenting voices they might ask the membership - but in a democratic organisation the leaders lead without referring everything to the 'rank and file'.
I too am a BALPA member, and utterly opposed to ID cards. Your opinion is just as valid as mine (although I believe you are in a very small minority indeed).
The BALPA NEC and others have discussed IDs and the overwhelming consensus there too is opposition to them. If there were significant dissenting voices they might ask the membership - but in a democratic organisation the leaders lead without referring everything to the 'rank and file'.
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call100, fair enough. And even better as it will mean assistance in fighting the blasted things. Put the pain and discomfort in to someone elses' court and turn them into you ally.
42psi, also a fair point - that doesn't make the press. All a bit rediculous for something that the Labor Party wishes to spend about as much on as will be spent on the 2012 Olympics.
Great idea to have a two-year test on public servants. To get a job in the public service, you must possess an ID card. Surely they must require an even greater scrutiny than aircrew if they will be managing the system.
Chips
42psi, also a fair point - that doesn't make the press. All a bit rediculous for something that the Labor Party wishes to spend about as much on as will be spent on the 2012 Olympics.
Great idea to have a two-year test on public servants. To get a job in the public service, you must possess an ID card. Surely they must require an even greater scrutiny than aircrew if they will be managing the system.
Chips
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42psi
I don't think I have any misconceptions over the ID card system. I don't think I had any before discussions with the Home Office or After.
From my last post.....
I have not stated that it matters a jot which airport is used to begin with. The trial will not be just an issuing exercise. Everything you posted has already been discussed and it is widely known that you will not have to carry it and that it does not replace any other documents/passes.
Unlike some I am actually doing something constructive and not just sitting around in angst. I will do my best to keep this forum informed of anything relevant.
The next major step will be whether the TUC vote for the BALPA motion at Congress.
My opinion is that if they back it then that will put a major obstruction in the way of the act. However, since all the TU National officers met with Jaqui Smith last Thursday, at short notice, I am not counting any chickens.
I don't think I have any misconceptions over the ID card system. I don't think I had any before discussions with the Home Office or After.
From my last post.....
As it will be specifically against the law for anyone to demand to see your ID card (In the beginning) It would seem a totally pointless exercise.
Unlike some I am actually doing something constructive and not just sitting around in angst. I will do my best to keep this forum informed of anything relevant.
The next major step will be whether the TUC vote for the BALPA motion at Congress.
My opinion is that if they back it then that will put a major obstruction in the way of the act. However, since all the TU National officers met with Jaqui Smith last Thursday, at short notice, I am not counting any chickens.
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Why?
Why are so many people in the UK against a national identity card?
I live in Sweden and my driving license is my national ID card also. It has my personal ID number on it and whenever i use my credit card above a certain limit, i have to produce the card to be swiped. It makes life a lot easier and protects me from fraud. MY UK driving license before i moved here was a complete joke. I showed it to a policeman here once and he almost laughed at the piece of paper.
It's just like this new system in the UK called Chip and Pin. They were so late to the table, it's a joke. I was using my UK card here in Sweden and entering my pin at supermarket checkouts for years before i received this chip and pin card. For me nothing has changed.
I can understand that it shouldn't be forced on pilots to get public acceptance, but i just can't see what all the fuss is about.
I live in Sweden and my driving license is my national ID card also. It has my personal ID number on it and whenever i use my credit card above a certain limit, i have to produce the card to be swiped. It makes life a lot easier and protects me from fraud. MY UK driving license before i moved here was a complete joke. I showed it to a policeman here once and he almost laughed at the piece of paper.
It's just like this new system in the UK called Chip and Pin. They were so late to the table, it's a joke. I was using my UK card here in Sweden and entering my pin at supermarket checkouts for years before i received this chip and pin card. For me nothing has changed.
I can understand that it shouldn't be forced on pilots to get public acceptance, but i just can't see what all the fuss is about.
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Because the UK ID card will be a massive database used and cross-referenced by many, many other agencies. Because the UK has a proven track record of leaving said data on trains or roundabouts. Because this data is controlled/used by self-important jobsworths whose arrogance is matched only by their inefficiency/stupidity. Because mistakes in similar (smaller) databases have already proved impossible to correct in a timely fashion. Because any UK national under the age of 40 is genetically unable to spell properly or consistently, so this will find its way onto the database as corruptions. Because any criminal who hacks into the system then automatically has access to every corner of your life. Because these same jobsworths have just made overfilling your bin (which is only emptied once a fortnight) a criminal offence, which will eventually have a negative impact on your ID and therefore your ability to fly an aircraft. These are just the points that spring immediately to my mind.
We already have photo driving licences which fulfill 90% of the security requirement, and could be made to 99.9% - but that wouldn't create enough jobs for said jobsworths.
Apart from the above, I have few objections to IDs ...
We already have photo driving licences which fulfill 90% of the security requirement, and could be made to 99.9% - but that wouldn't create enough jobs for said jobsworths.
Apart from the above, I have few objections to IDs ...
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I may be a minority or part of the silent majority who can not be botherd to air their views. I know for a fact that only those opposed fundametaly to somthing or finally forced into a corner and told to make a decision will actively say or do somthing about whatever is ratteling their cage. So I am going to get of my couch and say:
I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with somthing to hide need fear it.
Now with all grand ideas the implementation often ruins the principle. However I do not think that because the system is not perfect we should not continue with it. We are after all human and the first to stand up and say "I am perfect" is not of this planet. So having set light to the blue touch paper I will step back the required safe distance.
.....Boom.....
I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with somthing to hide need fear it.
Now with all grand ideas the implementation often ruins the principle. However I do not think that because the system is not perfect we should not continue with it. We are after all human and the first to stand up and say "I am perfect" is not of this planet. So having set light to the blue touch paper I will step back the required safe distance.
.....Boom.....
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Ahh the good old ...'If you've nothing to hide you have no worry argument' sorry won't wash with me.....the question is WHY do these stupid civil servants want all our data......all about 'control' if you ask me.....ID card, No Thanks......
Just think, no doubt this site is monitored by some 'jobsworth' at the DfT and Lackey Jackies Home Office to see whats going on. They will then be looking at the IP address of who posted what and keeping a tab on the poster.....think that far fetched....just wait and see what these pri*ks are capable of.......
Remember the signs at BA LHR base in the 70s/80s....I didn't vote Tory they said......well in this case I didn't vote for Blair/Brown's 'New Labour' stupidity (no one voted for Brown as PM it should be noted)....come the revolution when the common man wakes up to see the society that is being created by these ba$tards, will be nice to see the heads on spikes on Tower Bridge.......
Just think, no doubt this site is monitored by some 'jobsworth' at the DfT and Lackey Jackies Home Office to see whats going on. They will then be looking at the IP address of who posted what and keeping a tab on the poster.....think that far fetched....just wait and see what these pri*ks are capable of.......
Remember the signs at BA LHR base in the 70s/80s....I didn't vote Tory they said......well in this case I didn't vote for Blair/Brown's 'New Labour' stupidity (no one voted for Brown as PM it should be noted)....come the revolution when the common man wakes up to see the society that is being created by these ba$tards, will be nice to see the heads on spikes on Tower Bridge.......
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Benjaman
Think of it like this.
In parts of "the continent", if a cyclist riding nude down Main Street gets stopped by the police it's not because of being butt naked, but that he/she probably isn't carrying their compulsory ID.
In the UK/US they'll risk a charge of indecent exposure but no-one will ever ask for their "papers". The phrase leaves a bad taste in a free country.
In parts of "the continent", if a cyclist riding nude down Main Street gets stopped by the police it's not because of being butt naked, but that he/she probably isn't carrying their compulsory ID.
In the UK/US they'll risk a charge of indecent exposure but no-one will ever ask for their "papers". The phrase leaves a bad taste in a free country.
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At the risk of being banned for straying too far from aviation, the spectacularly mis-named Child Support Agency was given the power to cancel driving licences if they believed - often wrongly - that an individual was not paying what the CSA said was the correct maintenance. That is the problem with putting too much political power into the hands of monkeys, and allowing an 'infraction' in one area to have ramifications in other, unrelated areas.
Now, quickly back to aviation. An ID card will have a negligible positive effect on aviation security, regardless of whether or not it works. But it will have many negative effects, not the least of which is unnecessary cost for the sake of Gordon's political vanity.
Now, quickly back to aviation. An ID card will have a negligible positive effect on aviation security, regardless of whether or not it works. But it will have many negative effects, not the least of which is unnecessary cost for the sake of Gordon's political vanity.
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Having corresponded with my MP (Labour, back bench) on the matter, he is quite open about the fact that many MPs have serious concerns themselves about how this is being rolled out, the relevance of the whole project, and also I believe the principle of so much data being held in such an unsecure fashion. That is before you even get into the arguments about what the Govt wants all this information for and what use it will be in enhancing national security.
My replies from the Home Office highlight the improved security we will benefit from as a result of the introduction of National ID Cards for airside workers. They do not explain how this will come about though. This despite the fact that foreign nationals will not be required to hold them, and the incumbant Government of this country allows a system whereby foreign nationals falling into the "too difficult to check properly" category are rubber stamped through anyway. Presumably a party so concerned with spin and being seen to do the right thing would not wish to be accused of discrimination.
We as an industry are an easy target. The Govt gets to pick on a sector where you will have no choice but to comply if you wish to continue down your current career path, and at the same time gets to crow about all the proactive steps it is taking to make us all safer. Dumbing down of society that has taken place makes sense when you wish to sell the public smoke and mirrors lies. Please don't forget that our current Home Secretary was more than happy to shaft the guardians of public safety over back-dated pay deals without batting an eye-lid.
Surprisingly, if we could have a relevant, secure and beneficial scheme for National ID, I would happily support it. Sadly, we have a white elephant (to join the herd of others we have had to suffer and pay for over the last 15 and no doubt as many again) instead. And it is being driven by a bunch of people I wouldn't trust to sit the right way round on the lavatory.
Sorry to those of you having to wade through this very personal rant, but this matter has been seriously p
g me off for several months now.
oap
My replies from the Home Office highlight the improved security we will benefit from as a result of the introduction of National ID Cards for airside workers. They do not explain how this will come about though. This despite the fact that foreign nationals will not be required to hold them, and the incumbant Government of this country allows a system whereby foreign nationals falling into the "too difficult to check properly" category are rubber stamped through anyway. Presumably a party so concerned with spin and being seen to do the right thing would not wish to be accused of discrimination.
We as an industry are an easy target. The Govt gets to pick on a sector where you will have no choice but to comply if you wish to continue down your current career path, and at the same time gets to crow about all the proactive steps it is taking to make us all safer. Dumbing down of society that has taken place makes sense when you wish to sell the public smoke and mirrors lies. Please don't forget that our current Home Secretary was more than happy to shaft the guardians of public safety over back-dated pay deals without batting an eye-lid.
Surprisingly, if we could have a relevant, secure and beneficial scheme for National ID, I would happily support it. Sadly, we have a white elephant (to join the herd of others we have had to suffer and pay for over the last 15 and no doubt as many again) instead. And it is being driven by a bunch of people I wouldn't trust to sit the right way round on the lavatory.
Sorry to those of you having to wade through this very personal rant, but this matter has been seriously p
g me off for several months now.oap
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It's another step towards being micro chipped at birth. No doubt, this would be presented as 'For your comfort and convenience but primarily for your security', and the reality tv generation would believe it.
For my comfort and convenience but primarily for the nation's security, would the chap all those funny twitches, stumpy finger nails and an obsession with control through databases be kind enough to hand over to someone a bit more normal. Although it breaks with tradition, perhaps some form of election might be appropriate.
For my comfort and convenience but primarily for the nation's security, would the chap all those funny twitches, stumpy finger nails and an obsession with control through databases be kind enough to hand over to someone a bit more normal. Although it breaks with tradition, perhaps some form of election might be appropriate.
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One of Hitler's methods of controlling the German citizenry was mandatory national I.D. cards. No one could obtain work, food or travel without such cards and by means of the information on them, those who were socially unfit for the new German state could be easily identified and eliminated. 
The TUC Congress voted overwhelmingly to support BALPA's motion today. Although I must say the spokesman didn't give the best arguments against. Instead this was given by the seconder from Prospect. It was passed despite a disapointing speech by the GMB representative.
Hopefully, now we can begin organising with a bit more bite at individual airports and affected companies.
To those of you who think you have nothing to hide...I hope you are right...Forever...
The TUC Congress voted overwhelmingly to support BALPA's motion today. Although I must say the spokesman didn't give the best arguments against. Instead this was given by the seconder from Prospect. It was passed despite a disapointing speech by the GMB representative.
Hopefully, now we can begin organising with a bit more bite at individual airports and affected companies.
To those of you who think you have nothing to hide...I hope you are right...Forever...
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you have the answer - micro chipped at birth!
‘ContactPoint’ – formerly the Information-Sharing Index
The Children Act 2004 empowered the Secretary of State for Education to create a database (or databases) of everyone in England who is aged under 18. In July 2007, the regulations that will bring this first national database of children into being were passed by Parliament.
The government has announced that the database will be called ContactPoint. It was originally known as the Information-Sharing Index, but re-branded in February 2007 because of negative publicity about information sharing.