BALPA against ID Cards - TUC Congress
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Beds
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots threaten to strike over ID cards - UK Politics, UK - The Independent
Excellent! That's just the approach that is required.
But Mr McAuslan, whose union holds its annual conference at Heathrow later this week, said he would be consulting members on the possibility of industrial action if the Government presses ahead with the plans. "It may come to an industrial dispute," he said. "We would want to avoid that. We would want the Government to think again about the compulsory nature of it and think again about the whole scheme. The Government has said previously that ID cards will be voluntary but the indications are that if you choose not to have a card you will not get an airside pass."
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tracey Island
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hopefully they will vote to do something.....I notice the Government spokesperson is still spouting the same old mantra. I think at the end of the day only large scale industrial action will be effective to finally nail the coffin lid down.
The other TU's are becoming embarrassing now....
Bruce Wayne
I have PM'd you.
The other TU's are becoming embarrassing now....
Bruce Wayne
I have PM'd you.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi everyone, I’m a new poster on this board but have been following this particular debate for a while and with great interest.
FYI, I am a Trade Union Rep with a strong opposition stance to implementation of the scheme, not only for aviation workers but as a whole. Unfortunately grass roots opposition is not matched by those higher up the Union food chain.
We have been advised that because this is already an act of parliament all that the Union hierarchy will do is ‘engage’ with ministers. If this was Tory legislation we would have coaches organised and placards in our hands! A bit of civil unrest did for the Poll Tax after all.
The white paper issue is interesting (Bruce Wayne) but would it be effective? I just wish the bloody *Trade Union movement would get its arse into gear over this.
*The ones that are affiliated to Labour, note – BALPA are not.
Consider this: The electoral commission figures reveal that Labour has received approx £30 million in donations from the Trade Unions since 2005 – 90% of its cash donations! Why do we continue to bankroll them? We have the reach and the clout that NO2ID (Bless 'em!) lack. Let’s question the government’s policy on this in a big way. Mobilise the movement, awake the nation and let’s try to save our freedom and liberties. Yeah, fat chance, I know.
Another point to consider: The big problem we have is that we're required under current EU law to have an ID cards scheme and an ID database that will mesh with a European-wide one, with biometric data and DNA samples. Lisbon Treaty Section 3 of article 69 gives the EU power to force Britain to adapt ID cards without our parliament being able to reject!
Welcome to the brave new world, but as call100 would say; ‘The fight goes on’
FYI, I am a Trade Union Rep with a strong opposition stance to implementation of the scheme, not only for aviation workers but as a whole. Unfortunately grass roots opposition is not matched by those higher up the Union food chain.
We have been advised that because this is already an act of parliament all that the Union hierarchy will do is ‘engage’ with ministers. If this was Tory legislation we would have coaches organised and placards in our hands! A bit of civil unrest did for the Poll Tax after all.
The white paper issue is interesting (Bruce Wayne) but would it be effective? I just wish the bloody *Trade Union movement would get its arse into gear over this.
*The ones that are affiliated to Labour, note – BALPA are not.
Consider this: The electoral commission figures reveal that Labour has received approx £30 million in donations from the Trade Unions since 2005 – 90% of its cash donations! Why do we continue to bankroll them? We have the reach and the clout that NO2ID (Bless 'em!) lack. Let’s question the government’s policy on this in a big way. Mobilise the movement, awake the nation and let’s try to save our freedom and liberties. Yeah, fat chance, I know.
Another point to consider: The big problem we have is that we're required under current EU law to have an ID cards scheme and an ID database that will mesh with a European-wide one, with biometric data and DNA samples. Lisbon Treaty Section 3 of article 69 gives the EU power to force Britain to adapt ID cards without our parliament being able to reject!
Welcome to the brave new world, but as call100 would say; ‘The fight goes on’
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good luck to all who oppose this ID card pantomime. I assume the only way to give these cards any weight will be to make it a criminal offence not to carry one. I don’t fancy getting a criminal record when all I’ve done is popped out to buy a pint of milk in the morning and forgotten to take my card with me.
And the thought of being treated like a criminal by having my DNA & fingerprints taken just to keep my job makes my blood boil.
And the thought of being treated like a criminal by having my DNA & fingerprints taken just to keep my job makes my blood boil.
Last edited by itsresidualmate; 18th Nov 2008 at 13:17.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote: Mr McAuslan the general secretary of BALPA, said he would be consulting members on the possibility of industrial action if the Government presses ahead with the plans. “It may come to an industrial dispute,” he said. “We would want to avoid that. We would want the Government to think again about the compulsory nature of it and think again about the whole scheme. The Government has said previously that ID cards will be voluntary but the indications are that if you choose not to have a card you will not get an airside pass.”
You would obviously have to consult the membership and ballot for any industrial action. Leaving aside the legal issue for a moment, this action would only be taken if there was a majority mandate from the membership.
As regards the campaign he cannot be expected to consult every member and will rely on the activists to gauge the strength of feeling amongst the membership.
I am sure he has their support, only wish the other Trade Unions were as vocal in their opposition & condemnation.
You would obviously have to consult the membership and ballot for any industrial action. Leaving aside the legal issue for a moment, this action would only be taken if there was a majority mandate from the membership.
As regards the campaign he cannot be expected to consult every member and will rely on the activists to gauge the strength of feeling amongst the membership.
I am sure he has their support, only wish the other Trade Unions were as vocal in their opposition & condemnation.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You don't need a strike if everyone refuses to do the paperwork and other stuff for an ID card. You just turn up at work as normal and if they refuse you entry then you register your protest, tell the management you tried to get in but failed and then either go home or stand outside with a sign to tell people why their flight is going to be cancelled. If the airport will let you in with your current airside pass then make the flight.
How does it work for those who aren't based at MAN or LCY but have to fly in and out occasionally? Are such crew supposed to also have ID cards?
How does it work for those who aren't based at MAN or LCY but have to fly in and out occasionally? Are such crew supposed to also have ID cards?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
llondel:
There is a problem with taking individual action instead of collective action.
The Goverment's cunning plan is to coerce 'soft target' individuals on a one by one basis. You will not need to have an ID until your current airside pass expires. As we know these passes all have different expiry dates, so in theory, if you renew your pass today it will be another 5 years before you will need to go onto the ID database to get airside. If an individual decides to have a one person protest, then i'm afraid the planes will still fly!
After saying that, this is the current timetable the Goverment wishes to use:
1/ 21 November 2008: Home Office issues draft rules on ID card trial at Manchester and London City airports. (Should be interesting)
2/ 25 November: Home Office starts issuing ID cards for foreign nationals.
3/ March-May 2009: Regulations on trial scheme debated by Parliament.
4/ Autumn 2009: First airport staff to be given ID cards.
5/ 2010: ID cards made available to young people for the first time.
6/ 2011-12: Public invited to register for ID cards.
7/ 2017: Vast majority of the population enrolled on ID card database.
There is a reason why they are doing this by stealth. (Airport by airport, individual by individual) Strong collective opposition in the aviation industry would be successful. Thats why it's so important that we engage and stand with those initially affected at MAN & LCY. I just hope that they are up for the fight, but I have my doubts.
We will have to wait until Friday when the draft rules are published, but I expect when we dissect it we will find lots of anomolies.
You don't need a strike if everyone refuses to do the paperwork and other stuff for an ID card. You just turn up at work as normal and if they refuse you entry then you register your protest, tell the management you tried to get in but failed and then either go home or stand outside with a sign to tell people why their flight is going to be cancelled. If the airport will let you in with your current airside pass then make the flight.
The Goverment's cunning plan is to coerce 'soft target' individuals on a one by one basis. You will not need to have an ID until your current airside pass expires. As we know these passes all have different expiry dates, so in theory, if you renew your pass today it will be another 5 years before you will need to go onto the ID database to get airside. If an individual decides to have a one person protest, then i'm afraid the planes will still fly!
After saying that, this is the current timetable the Goverment wishes to use:
1/ 21 November 2008: Home Office issues draft rules on ID card trial at Manchester and London City airports. (Should be interesting)
2/ 25 November: Home Office starts issuing ID cards for foreign nationals.
3/ March-May 2009: Regulations on trial scheme debated by Parliament.
4/ Autumn 2009: First airport staff to be given ID cards.
5/ 2010: ID cards made available to young people for the first time.
6/ 2011-12: Public invited to register for ID cards.
7/ 2017: Vast majority of the population enrolled on ID card database.
There is a reason why they are doing this by stealth. (Airport by airport, individual by individual) Strong collective opposition in the aviation industry would be successful. Thats why it's so important that we engage and stand with those initially affected at MAN & LCY. I just hope that they are up for the fight, but I have my doubts.
We will have to wait until Friday when the draft rules are published, but I expect when we dissect it we will find lots of anomolies.
Last edited by golftangofox; 21st Nov 2008 at 18:35.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: A different hotel to the one crewing told me...
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lisbon Treaty Section 3 of article 69 gives the EU power to force Britain
oap
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
qwertyuiop: Don't think that treaty has been ratified yet. Lets hope it never is!!
So that would be the same EU constitution that this perfidious Government promised us a vote on before the last election, and then denied us once they'd got back into power.... 
In fairness I have tried to read the Treaty and gave up! It's written in 'legal speak' and anyone without a good grounding in this gobledegook would struggle. I don't think many politicians understand it either. So it's a bit like 'don't worry about the small print, just sign at the bottom'.
In the end you will have to do what your European masters tell you.
Remember when we were the masters and the elected Goverment our servant? Those days have gone.
Last edited by golftangofox; 19th Nov 2008 at 23:24.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: not entirely sure.....
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZANU Labour has published a consultation document about ID cards.
The less palatable bits include fines of £125 (to be enforced by civil courts) for failing to update your details, refusing details, not letting them know about a change of name when you get married or failing to notify them if the card is lost/stolen
The cards will cost more than £30 (we knew that) and individuals who have sex change ops can have 2
Even the homeless cannot escape, they can use a park bench or bus stop as their address
- assuming they can find the £30+ needed to pay for one
So....... I'm going to have to pay for a card that I don't want or need, and will be fined if I don't tell the government everything they want to know.
Wonder if I'm too old to emigrate?
S78
The less palatable bits include fines of £125 (to be enforced by civil courts) for failing to update your details, refusing details, not letting them know about a change of name when you get married or failing to notify them if the card is lost/stolen
The cards will cost more than £30 (we knew that) and individuals who have sex change ops can have 2
Even the homeless cannot escape, they can use a park bench or bus stop as their address
- assuming they can find the £30+ needed to pay for oneSo....... I'm going to have to pay for a card that I don't want or need, and will be fined if I don't tell the government everything they want to know.
Wonder if I'm too old to emigrate?
S78
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The less palatable bits include fines of £125 (to be enforced by civil courts) for failing to update your details, refusing details, not letting them know about a change of name when you get married or failing to notify them if the card is lost/stolen
The £30 fixed fee for the cost of the card is set only until 2010. Most people are likely to pay much more once the large scale issuing of cards rolls out in 2011 or 2012.
Fines will also apply if cardholders fail to report their cards lost or stolen, and will be enforceable by the civil courts.
I suppose no real surprises, as a lot of this is covered in the 2006 act.
However, as if these punitive, revenue raising measures are not enough, just think where all this is heading. Britain will clearly become an unrecognisable snooper/police state.
How far in the future do you think it will be before Jacqui Smiths Stasi; the so called 'Community Accreditation Officers' start handing out on the spot fines for non compliance?
People really should start getting angry about this completely unnecessary tool of oppression.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It looks as though you can be fined for refusing to provide details, but I can't see anything that prohibits you from sending in the required details but refusing to provide the payment for the card. 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: A different hotel to the one crewing told me...
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, although when your airside pass comes round for renewal you will be assimilated into the collective mass ranks of the unemployed. Remember, resistance is futile.....
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The rules include measures forcing airside workers at the two 'trial airports' - MAN & LCY to enrol for an ID card when they complete the criminal records check needed to get an airport security card. (This will be from next Autumn).
How true and how depressing.
Don't forget though, for your convienience the fines, can be issued by post, email or fax.
Refuse to pay the fine or update your details? The Home Office have made it clear that repeated failures to keep an entry on the national identity register up to date could ultimately be enforced by bailiffs being sent round to seize property.
Interestingly, the Government has not yet made it a crime to refuse an ID. However, as has been mentioned, we will have to join the mass ranks of unemployed if we work airside and refuse to go onto the register.
The Gov make it clear that they intend to avoid the creation of ID card "martyrs", by levying no penalty on those who refuse to register for the national identity card database in the first place.
Well, there might be some aviation "martyrs" if anyone feels as strongly as I do about this.
True, although when your airside pass comes round for renewal you will be assimilated into the collective mass ranks of the unemployed. Remember, resistance is futile.....
Don't forget though, for your convienience the fines, can be issued by post, email or fax.
Refuse to pay the fine or update your details? The Home Office have made it clear that repeated failures to keep an entry on the national identity register up to date could ultimately be enforced by bailiffs being sent round to seize property.
Interestingly, the Government has not yet made it a crime to refuse an ID. However, as has been mentioned, we will have to join the mass ranks of unemployed if we work airside and refuse to go onto the register.
The Gov make it clear that they intend to avoid the creation of ID card "martyrs", by levying no penalty on those who refuse to register for the national identity card database in the first place.
Well, there might be some aviation "martyrs" if anyone feels as strongly as I do about this.
Last edited by golftangofox; 22nd Nov 2008 at 13:34.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Playing Golf!
Age: 46
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the company I work for we dont have airside ID cards, only a company ID - (we are not based from an airport, as we are a leasing company)
However, I show up at any airport show my company ID and then go airside - now and then I also have to show my licence but it's no headache.
So, would airlines be able to just stop requiring their employees to obtain an airport airside pass - and just issue a company ID instead?
PT6
However, I show up at any airport show my company ID and then go airside - now and then I also have to show my licence but it's no headache.
So, would airlines be able to just stop requiring their employees to obtain an airport airside pass - and just issue a company ID instead?
PT6
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: East England
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
golftangofox
Also by making it a 'civil' offence (is there such a thing) they are in fact putting you at a disadvantage.......you will be unable to have your day in court as you would if this were a normal criminal offence....with associated press interest etc...all that would be affected if you don't pay is your name goes on credit black lists, county court judgement against you etc and the Baillifs might turn up, you will then have an inability to get a Mortgage etc.....
Bascially they are a doing it this way as they are afraid of doing the job properly.........not even the Stazi would have done it this way!!!
One day Gordon/Jacqui (can't spell your name properly can you), one day the people of this country will wake up to your nasty regime....
Also by making it a 'civil' offence (is there such a thing) they are in fact putting you at a disadvantage.......you will be unable to have your day in court as you would if this were a normal criminal offence....with associated press interest etc...all that would be affected if you don't pay is your name goes on credit black lists, county court judgement against you etc and the Baillifs might turn up, you will then have an inability to get a Mortgage etc.....
Bascially they are a doing it this way as they are afraid of doing the job properly.........not even the Stazi would have done it this way!!!
One day Gordon/Jacqui (can't spell your name properly can you), one day the people of this country will wake up to your nasty regime....
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the company I work for we dont have airside ID cards, only a company ID - (we are not based from an airport, as we are a leasing company)
However, I show up at any airport show my company ID and then go airside - now and then I also have to show my licence but it's no headache.
So, would airlines be able to just stop requiring their employees to obtain an airport airside pass - and just issue a company ID instead?
PT6
However, I show up at any airport show my company ID and then go airside - now and then I also have to show my licence but it's no headache.
So, would airlines be able to just stop requiring their employees to obtain an airport airside pass - and just issue a company ID instead?
PT6
It is a Department For Transport (DFT) stipulation that all employees who are based at an airport must have an airside pass if they require access to work in airside areas. Airlines or any other companies who operate airside would not be exempt from this.
Even if this was not the case, a visitor pass would require you to be escorted at all times. It would also render the current criminal disclosure check redundant, as anyone with a conviction could get around this by just obtaining a day pass all the time.
spannersatKL: Also by making it a 'civil' offence (is there such a thing) they are in fact putting you at a disadvantage.......you will be unable to have your day in court as you would if this were a normal criminal offence....with associated press interest etc...all that would be affected if you don't pay is your name goes on credit black lists, county court judgement against you etc and the Baillifs might turn up, you will then have an inability to get a Mortgage etc.....
Bascially they are a doing it this way as they are afraid of doing the job properly.........not even the Stazi would have done it this way!!!
One day Gordon/Jacqui (can't spell your name properly can you), one day the people of this country will wake up to your nasty regime
Bascially they are a doing it this way as they are afraid of doing the job properly.........not even the Stazi would have done it this way!!!
One day Gordon/Jacqui (can't spell your name properly can you), one day the people of this country will wake up to your nasty regime
Thankfully, we all seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet. The big problem though is revealed in your last sentence; "one day people of this country will wake up"
By the time the public awake from their slumber and there really is a big outcry over the many pitfalls: the enormous cost £5.4 billion and rising, the expense to the individual, nuisance of having to update all your information for the rest of your life under the threat of financial penalty , ease of cloning, theft, loss of data, people losing the card and being fined etc. Most importantly, the vast intrusion into our lives and the loss of civil liberties. IT WILL BE TOO LATE. You will need the card for literally everything, you will not be able to function without it - fait de compli.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by golftangofox
... ease of cloning, theft, loss of data, people losing the card and being fined etc ...