BALPA against ID Cards - TUC Congress
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It wasn't just Hitler who enforced ID cards. In the 1930s, Holland carried ID cards and they had nothing to fear because they trusted their government. And they were right...nearly. Unfortunately, their ID cards were related to information which also included their religion. So, when the Nazis came marching through in 1940 they could easily identify all the Jews...who were smartly marched off to concentration and death camps.
But hey, I'm being paranoid. That could never happen now....
What I want to know is why will I be stopped from doing my job for refusing to carry an item that's not related to my job that the rest of the population don't have to carry?
Still it's easy. Call an election Gordon
Chips
But hey, I'm being paranoid. That could never happen now....
What I want to know is why will I be stopped from doing my job for refusing to carry an item that's not related to my job that the rest of the population don't have to carry?
Still it's easy. Call an election Gordon
Chips
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I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with something to hide need fear it.
I prefer not to have strangers poking around in my life - there are aspects of my life I want to hide from the state. In short, I value my privacy. There have been lots of words for people who find that suspicious - the East Germans used to call them the Stasi.
The assumption that "having something to hide" is sinister is very foreign to traditional British values. I don't want to live in a country where preserving one's privacy is considered a suspicious activity
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The notion of having nothing to hide therefore you should not fear being monitored by the state is nothing short of communism.
Who knows what ideas those that rule our lives have in store for us. And with the evidence of the last ten years that labour has so far displayed, it will be full of using laws to suit themselves (think back to when they used their new anti terrorist laws to arrest a 70 yr old labour activist from speaking at a conference).
When these ID cards can be used to determine what you get and when, then how long before those political imbeciles use them for compliance to their way of thinking?
For those of you that have viewed these posts from outside the Uk, and many of you already carry ID cards you may wonder at our reluctance. You have not lived with a government hell bent on protecting itself rather than doing its job of running this country. They want to control us like a huge train set and use us a live experiment that they once talked about as students when as now they have no knowledge of the real world, just an idea of some political ideal.
They are incompetent and they have proven themselves to be so on many occasions, so why would any rational person allow their free lives to be handed over to these creatures?
It is not who I am that worries me it is what they will do with me.
6
Who knows what ideas those that rule our lives have in store for us. And with the evidence of the last ten years that labour has so far displayed, it will be full of using laws to suit themselves (think back to when they used their new anti terrorist laws to arrest a 70 yr old labour activist from speaking at a conference).
When these ID cards can be used to determine what you get and when, then how long before those political imbeciles use them for compliance to their way of thinking?
For those of you that have viewed these posts from outside the Uk, and many of you already carry ID cards you may wonder at our reluctance. You have not lived with a government hell bent on protecting itself rather than doing its job of running this country. They want to control us like a huge train set and use us a live experiment that they once talked about as students when as now they have no knowledge of the real world, just an idea of some political ideal.
They are incompetent and they have proven themselves to be so on many occasions, so why would any rational person allow their free lives to be handed over to these creatures?
It is not who I am that worries me it is what they will do with me.
6
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Data protection
I caught an article on the BBC internet news service a couple of days ago about a data stick being lost containing sensetive information. Th worrying thing was they also listed many past events, the CDs lost in the post, heaps of laptops stolen etc. etc.
I had an ID card in HK for may years and found it to be good, however I'd need to see a big change in the UK's data security before being keen on supplying more data then they already have
I had an ID card in HK for may years and found it to be good, however I'd need to see a big change in the UK's data security before being keen on supplying more data then they already have
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flap15:
I think the preferred response at this point is usually to ask how much you earn, when you last had sex and with whom.
Most people get the point at this stage and most of the rest probably ought to be carrying cards to identify them and warn the rest of us what we're dealing with. Unfortunately it doesn't work with politicians because what they earn is a matter of public record and the rest is probably already in the tabloids.
I believe a national ID card system is a good thing and only those with somthing to hide need fear it.
Most people get the point at this stage and most of the rest probably ought to be carrying cards to identify them and warn the rest of us what we're dealing with. Unfortunately it doesn't work with politicians because what they earn is a matter of public record and the rest is probably already in the tabloids.
Discussed on NO2ID:
NO2ID :: View topic - BALPA TUC motion passed against National Identity Scheme
Quote:
>>Generalising on the basis of a modest knowledge of UK pilots and an even more modest knowledge of BALPA:
1. BALPA and its members wouldn't get into this fight if they didn't feel they had to.
2. They wouldn't get into it if they didn't believe they could win.
3. If they back down, it will be because they have been bought off. It's hard to see what the government could do to buy them off.
4. If they don't back down, the government will have to back down. Another defeat in IPS's unbroken record of defeats. (Good job IPS don't run an airline.)
5. When IPS were trounced by the banks and the major retailers, there was no crowing. There was no benefit to the banks and the retailers to be gained by crowing. The situation could be different with BALPA. They have an interest in making it clear to their members, loudly and in public, that BALPA will always strongly defend them.
6. The TUC has the same interest in making it clear to its members and everyone else that they are powerful. Demonstrating their power in the cause of everyone's civil liberties, not just their members', could be universally attractive. Which would make IPS look universally unattractive. Which they are ...
7. ... because my God, if ever there was a natural constituency for ID cards, it's airline pilots, and if IPS can't convince airline pilots that ID cards are a good idea, they can't convince anyone.
8. IPS's defeat by BALPA will strengthen the hand of the NUJ and UCU, who have also had a motion carried, and strengthen the hand of the NUS, whose members are next on the ID card roster after non-EEA nationals and airside workers ...<<
NO2ID :: View topic - BALPA TUC motion passed against National Identity Scheme
Quote:
>>Generalising on the basis of a modest knowledge of UK pilots and an even more modest knowledge of BALPA:
1. BALPA and its members wouldn't get into this fight if they didn't feel they had to.
2. They wouldn't get into it if they didn't believe they could win.
3. If they back down, it will be because they have been bought off. It's hard to see what the government could do to buy them off.
4. If they don't back down, the government will have to back down. Another defeat in IPS's unbroken record of defeats. (Good job IPS don't run an airline.)
5. When IPS were trounced by the banks and the major retailers, there was no crowing. There was no benefit to the banks and the retailers to be gained by crowing. The situation could be different with BALPA. They have an interest in making it clear to their members, loudly and in public, that BALPA will always strongly defend them.
6. The TUC has the same interest in making it clear to its members and everyone else that they are powerful. Demonstrating their power in the cause of everyone's civil liberties, not just their members', could be universally attractive. Which would make IPS look universally unattractive. Which they are ...
7. ... because my God, if ever there was a natural constituency for ID cards, it's airline pilots, and if IPS can't convince airline pilots that ID cards are a good idea, they can't convince anyone.
8. IPS's defeat by BALPA will strengthen the hand of the NUJ and UCU, who have also had a motion carried, and strengthen the hand of the NUS, whose members are next on the ID card roster after non-EEA nationals and airside workers ...<<
Also NO2ID Press Release:
http://www.no2id.net/news/pressRelea...lmingly_oppose
>>"The Home Office has almost given up pretending that its ID scheme is necessary for national security. Those involved in aviation security day-to-day don't believe it. Now the plan is that ID will confront us in the workplace - as a form of official permission to earn a living. We are delighted that the unions and their members will be ready to fight it."<<
http://www.no2id.net/news/pressRelea...lmingly_oppose
>>"The Home Office has almost given up pretending that its ID scheme is necessary for national security. Those involved in aviation security day-to-day don't believe it. Now the plan is that ID will confront us in the workplace - as a form of official permission to earn a living. We are delighted that the unions and their members will be ready to fight it."<<
++ TUC PLEDGES TO RESIST THE NATIONAL IDENTITY SCHEME "WITH ALL
MEANS AT ITS DISPOSAL" ++
This week the Trades Union Congress (TUC) voted at their Congress in
Brighton to resist the National ID scheme with all means at its
disposal, "including consideration of legal action to uphold civil
liberties". The motion was put forward by the British Air Line Pilots'
Association (BALPA) in light of government plans to require workers in
aviation to enrol in the National Identity Scheme in 2009. The motion
states: "Congress sees absolutely no value in the scheme or in
improvements to security that might flow from this exercise and feels
that aviation workers are being used as pawns in a politically led
process which might lead to individuals being denied the right to work
because they are not registered or chose not to register in the scheme."
The motion puts unions on a collision course with the government over
civil liberties and contradicts government spin that "unions approve ID
cards" issued after the Labour Party National Policy Forum at Warwick at
the end of July.
MEANS AT ITS DISPOSAL" ++
This week the Trades Union Congress (TUC) voted at their Congress in
Brighton to resist the National ID scheme with all means at its
disposal, "including consideration of legal action to uphold civil
liberties". The motion was put forward by the British Air Line Pilots'
Association (BALPA) in light of government plans to require workers in
aviation to enrol in the National Identity Scheme in 2009. The motion
states: "Congress sees absolutely no value in the scheme or in
improvements to security that might flow from this exercise and feels
that aviation workers are being used as pawns in a politically led
process which might lead to individuals being denied the right to work
because they are not registered or chose not to register in the scheme."
The motion puts unions on a collision course with the government over
civil liberties and contradicts government spin that "unions approve ID
cards" issued after the Labour Party National Policy Forum at Warwick at
the end of July.
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ID cards.
I just took a look at my European ID card. It's huge
a piece of A4 paper (looks quite nice). Gives my full name,
place of birth, and parents first names. Also my nationality
address and my NIE (=tax number).
If only the UK would stop at something like that.
Why oh why does the UK need all the other data ?
a piece of A4 paper (looks quite nice). Gives my full name,
place of birth, and parents first names. Also my nationality
address and my NIE (=tax number).
If only the UK would stop at something like that.
Why oh why does the UK need all the other data ?
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"
As I said in another post..At the meeting with the Home office, they actually stressed that the requirement for us to have the ID had nothing to do with Anti-Terrorism. In fact that was the only time it was mentioned in the entire meeting. We did go expecting them to bang on about security and were surprised that they took this path. As it says above, they seem to have given up on that one. That is not to say that Government is not still saying that, they don't know how to change the mantra in the face of defeat.
The vote at the TUC congress was from the collective delegates. It would be wrong to assume that some of the National Officers at Warwick were giving any indication that they were against ID cards.
The GMB delegate seemed to have lost the plot at congress and had no idea what the arguments were. Thankfully BALPA used the right of reply and more or less said that. I do still think that the arguments that BALPA put over were not necessarily the best I've heard, but, at least they stood up to be counted and the outcome was positive. (I am not a member of BALPA)
The Home Office has almost given up pretending that its ID scheme is necessary for national security. Those involved in aviation security day-to-day don't believe it. Now the plan is that ID will confront us in the workplace - as a form of official permission to earn a living. We are delighted that the unions and their members will be ready to fight it."
The motion puts unions on a collision course with the government over
civil liberties and contradicts government spin that "unions approve ID
cards" issued after the Labour Party National Policy Forum at Warwick at
the end of July.
civil liberties and contradicts government spin that "unions approve ID
cards" issued after the Labour Party National Policy Forum at Warwick at
the end of July.
The GMB delegate seemed to have lost the plot at congress and had no idea what the arguments were. Thankfully BALPA used the right of reply and more or less said that. I do still think that the arguments that BALPA put over were not necessarily the best I've heard, but, at least they stood up to be counted and the outcome was positive. (I am not a member of BALPA)
Thread Starter
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I do still think that the arguments that BALPA put over were not necessarily the best I've heard, but, at least they stood up to be counted and the outcome was positive.
Do you have a link to the transcript?
Do I have a philosophical objection to ID cards? No - used one for years in the RAF and seen other countries use them. Do I think govt can bring them in without 
it up and costing an astronomical amount of money? No I don't - look at their record on big IT projects. Will they be forgeable? Reckon so and someone will.
it up and costing an astronomical amount of money? No I don't - look at their record on big IT projects. Will they be forgeable? Reckon so and someone will.
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Do I have a philosophical objection to ID cards? No - used one for years in the RAF and seen other countries use them
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Who gave the speech? Jim McAuslan?
Do you have a link to the transcript?
Do you have a link to the transcript?
TUC Conference: 2008: 10/09/2008
Having re listened to the speech. I think he may have done better than I first thought. It is difficult at congress as you only get 7 minutes to put the motion across. The second speaker for 'Prospect' made some of the missing points.
Stick with it BALPA reply to the bad speech from the GMB representative.
UCU representative makes very good points.
Last edited by call100; 12th Sep 2008 at 09:57.
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UK Government plans for National Identity Cards
I think we all know that UK nationals who work airside are going to be subject to new rules concerning UK ID cards. I think whether we like it or not, all of us that work in such an environment are going to be forced to have the new cards. The question I have is are we also going to have to have an individual airport specific card as well as we have at the moment? Some numpty at the BAA security is probably dreaming up some excuse as we speak as to the reasons why we should all still be subject to additional screening as well as UK government screening. After all security is a good little earner for airports. Any thoughts?
The topic of ID cards came up on Any Questions (BBC Radio 4) last night - Any Answers is on at 1310 today and I thought this would be a good opportunity to get on air to mention how airside workers feel about this suggested imposition. I am just off to fly but perhaps someone even more erudite than me might want to give them a call over this issue - good luck!
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Saddest Aviator Wrote:
Some numpty at the BAA security is probably dreaming up some excuse as we speak as to the reasons why we should all still be subject to additional screening as well as UK government screening. After all security is a good little earner for airports. Any thoughts?
No chance - there's a huge difference between passing through a 5 year check as is required now and being vetted properly - I'm sure some of the ex - forces people here will back me up on that one. Ergo the airports would shut down overnight if vetting was to be done properly - remember the Trever McDonald show about BHX and the behaviour of our airside colleagues? I sure do.
Another thing - what no-one here is picking up upon is the guard force companies in some UK airports are employing increasing amounts of Eastern Europeans to physically screen SLF and staff now - are these the same people that we all know CANNOT be screened for criminal records right now according to the Daily Mail?
BBC NEWS | UK | Airport staff avoid crime checks
In such circumstances, someone who has been honest and upfront about a previous mistake and declared it is a safer bet than some of those whose antecedence cannot be checked.
Some numpty at the BAA security is probably dreaming up some excuse as we speak as to the reasons why we should all still be subject to additional screening as well as UK government screening. After all security is a good little earner for airports. Any thoughts?
No chance - there's a huge difference between passing through a 5 year check as is required now and being vetted properly - I'm sure some of the ex - forces people here will back me up on that one. Ergo the airports would shut down overnight if vetting was to be done properly - remember the Trever McDonald show about BHX and the behaviour of our airside colleagues? I sure do.
Another thing - what no-one here is picking up upon is the guard force companies in some UK airports are employing increasing amounts of Eastern Europeans to physically screen SLF and staff now - are these the same people that we all know CANNOT be screened for criminal records right now according to the Daily Mail?
BBC NEWS | UK | Airport staff avoid crime checks
In such circumstances, someone who has been honest and upfront about a previous mistake and declared it is a safer bet than some of those whose antecedence cannot be checked.
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Come on people...Lets not lose sight of the reason you will be required/forced to have a national ID card as an airside worker......It's so that the Government can begin the role out of the system to the general population with the argument about how many already have them...If they make it voluntary no one will have one.
In Talks with the home office officials who are implementing this they actually stated it was nothing to do with security.
The Act says that no one can demand to see your ID including the Police. Once issued you will not be required to carry it anywhere. This card is only seen as something we need by the present ruling party...They have no support from any other area.
Lets not make this an aviation only issue. It is a Civil Liberties abuse.
As for the cost £30 each for your initial cards.....It will rise in the future once they have every one on the system and it will be renewable.
Some of us are fighting the whole thing and sometimes despair at the 'There's nothing we can do' attitude.
In Talks with the home office officials who are implementing this they actually stated it was nothing to do with security.
The Act says that no one can demand to see your ID including the Police. Once issued you will not be required to carry it anywhere. This card is only seen as something we need by the present ruling party...They have no support from any other area.
Lets not make this an aviation only issue. It is a Civil Liberties abuse.
As for the cost £30 each for your initial cards.....It will rise in the future once they have every one on the system and it will be renewable.
Some of us are fighting the whole thing and sometimes despair at the 'There's nothing we can do' attitude.
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I don't doubt you are correct call100 but I'll bet a months salary that if you don't produce the card, you won't get an airside pass in the first instance.
Thereafter, I'll bet that anytime a security operative asks you for the national ID card, despite the fact that you may already have given him/her you airside pass to pass through a barrier, and you refuse, you'll be denied entry because these places are all private property and they can stipulate what they like if you wish to proceed through.
Same as now really, you don't have to submit to a search if you don't want to, that's your perogative but they'll just turn you away and you can't work.
We are bent over a desk and our pants have just been removed............
Thereafter, I'll bet that anytime a security operative asks you for the national ID card, despite the fact that you may already have given him/her you airside pass to pass through a barrier, and you refuse, you'll be denied entry because these places are all private property and they can stipulate what they like if you wish to proceed through.
Same as now really, you don't have to submit to a search if you don't want to, that's your perogative but they'll just turn you away and you can't work.
We are bent over a desk and our pants have just been removed............