BA Pilot Ballot results
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"run prudently and managed efficiently."
Excuse me, while I go throw up, but I think Stoic responded correctly.
The public (whether they fully realize it, or not) NEEDS appropriately
compensated cockpit crews. The public NEEDS the best and the brightest
competing for the major airline pilot jobs. Those NEEDS, are based on
getting from point A to point B safely.
If the airline pilots (and pilot groups) of the world continue "racing to the
bottom" for their wages and work rules (T&Cs), the public need of safety
WILL be compromised. The best and brightest will look at other professions
for their careers. Alternative careers WILL pull them away from aviation.
Once we get to "anyone can be a pilot", there will be less safety, period.
Automation is good, but sometimes not available during emergencies. Pilots
HAVE to be ready and able, to handle "surprises". This is not a truck or bus
or car- we're talking about. Skill, experience and judgment (ie..intelligence)
will ALWAYS be required. AND, a high level of all of these traits, to ensure
the safest movement of aircraft.
Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED lawyer to represent you.
Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED surgeon to operate on you.
Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED pilot to safely fly you from point A to point B.
"appropriately compensated" vs. "managed efficiently"?
I GUARANTEE that pilots have the public's safety as their #1 priority while
doing their job. (their life is ALWAYS on the line-every day they go to work)
I GUARANTEE that management, while sitting behind the safety of their desk
and/or boardroom doors, weighs the "costs of safety" in their attempts at
"managing efficiently". This process GUARANTEES compromises. Pilots are
rightly disgusted when safety gets compromised.
Thus the fight to protect what was, continues.
Excuse me, while I go throw up, but I think Stoic responded correctly.
The public (whether they fully realize it, or not) NEEDS appropriately
compensated cockpit crews. The public NEEDS the best and the brightest
competing for the major airline pilot jobs. Those NEEDS, are based on
getting from point A to point B safely.
If the airline pilots (and pilot groups) of the world continue "racing to the
bottom" for their wages and work rules (T&Cs), the public need of safety
WILL be compromised. The best and brightest will look at other professions
for their careers. Alternative careers WILL pull them away from aviation.
Once we get to "anyone can be a pilot", there will be less safety, period.
Automation is good, but sometimes not available during emergencies. Pilots
HAVE to be ready and able, to handle "surprises". This is not a truck or bus
or car- we're talking about. Skill, experience and judgment (ie..intelligence)
will ALWAYS be required. AND, a high level of all of these traits, to ensure
the safest movement of aircraft.
Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED lawyer to represent you.
Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED surgeon to operate on you.
Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED pilot to safely fly you from point A to point B.
"appropriately compensated" vs. "managed efficiently"?
I GUARANTEE that pilots have the public's safety as their #1 priority while
doing their job. (their life is ALWAYS on the line-every day they go to work)
I GUARANTEE that management, while sitting behind the safety of their desk
and/or boardroom doors, weighs the "costs of safety" in their attempts at
"managing efficiently". This process GUARANTEES compromises. Pilots are
rightly disgusted when safety gets compromised.
Thus the fight to protect what was, continues.
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Cabin Crew
Anyone know how this whole Open Skies thing will impact cabin crew? Are they in the same situation as the pilots re common seniority lists, secondments, etc? Are the Cabin Crew unions doing anything about it?
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best and the brightest competing for the major airline pilot jobs
OS salaries are market competitive, they're just not BA competitive.
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pacamack
No doubt you are aware of the Peter Principle:
Pilots are checked for their competence several times a year. Airline managers are not, but depend on their ability and their political skill to survive and rise in the organisation.
Because they are regularly tested and checked, pilots rise to their level of competence. They are certified competent. Other non-operational employees in the organisation are not.
If you introduce, what you claim is a meritocratic system into an airline, will you not introduce an overlay which will bias pilots to also rise to their level of incompetence? Have we not seen this on occasions in pilots who have applied for and who have been selected for management positions?
Regards
Stoic
The theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent.
Because they are regularly tested and checked, pilots rise to their level of competence. They are certified competent. Other non-operational employees in the organisation are not.
If you introduce, what you claim is a meritocratic system into an airline, will you not introduce an overlay which will bias pilots to also rise to their level of incompetence? Have we not seen this on occasions in pilots who have applied for and who have been selected for management positions?
Regards
Stoic
Last edited by Stoic; 1st Mar 2008 at 08:33. Reason: clarity
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It is very interesting to read this thread and to try to understand the viewpoint of the many 'Ppruners'.
Not so long ago we had a vast amount of threads dedicated to the degradation of terms and conditions due to the various airlines willingness to charge for type ratings, training etc. This caused alot of discussion pertaining to professional pilots terms and condition falling due to the cheap influx of willing students onto the lower tiers of the airline world. The general call became, 'if you don't accept paying for your type rating then they will stop charging for it'.
Now, welcome to the new world of culling the market from the other end. Quantas and American Airlines have, sucessfully, capped and curbed mainline terms and conditions by use of a 'small upstart carrier' becoming a trojan horse to railroad the mainline into reduced terms and conditions.
This process has been very closely watched and scrutinized by all airlines around the world. The ability to have a large workforce on lower T's & C's in place to cover mainline work during a dispute is undoubtedly an enviable position for any manager. Do not be mistaken this will have an effect on all of our T's & C's in the future.
At the moment there is, for those who wish it, progression through the professional pilot workforce. The ability of a pilot to vote with his feet causes localised roster and pay stability as many airlines do not want the associated training cost involved with pilot migration. If we cull the top of the work list, i.e. the 'Legacy' carriers then there will be a waterfall effect as many managers will take into account the lack of ability to move carrier for better T's & C's. This action will have a huge affect on the industry over the next 10-15 years as the accountants and managers seek ever more innovative ways to cut costs in the face of rising fuel prices and reduced profit margins.
We, as professional people, cannot allow this to happen. Sure, the idea of DEC long haul trans Atlantic flying seems very appealing until you look at the fixed wages including any variable pay. These do not change. They are fixed for a fixed roster that will be very tiring indeed. After a few years then the novelty will wear off but the airline does not want to let you move fleet or airline. They do not want OS on the mainline seniority roster as then in 10 years time they will not be useful as a lever.
This is not just about BA Mainline wanting to maintain their 'cash cow' it is about wanting to preserve the conditions of employment in the future.
You decide.
Not so long ago we had a vast amount of threads dedicated to the degradation of terms and conditions due to the various airlines willingness to charge for type ratings, training etc. This caused alot of discussion pertaining to professional pilots terms and condition falling due to the cheap influx of willing students onto the lower tiers of the airline world. The general call became, 'if you don't accept paying for your type rating then they will stop charging for it'.
Now, welcome to the new world of culling the market from the other end. Quantas and American Airlines have, sucessfully, capped and curbed mainline terms and conditions by use of a 'small upstart carrier' becoming a trojan horse to railroad the mainline into reduced terms and conditions.
This process has been very closely watched and scrutinized by all airlines around the world. The ability to have a large workforce on lower T's & C's in place to cover mainline work during a dispute is undoubtedly an enviable position for any manager. Do not be mistaken this will have an effect on all of our T's & C's in the future.
At the moment there is, for those who wish it, progression through the professional pilot workforce. The ability of a pilot to vote with his feet causes localised roster and pay stability as many airlines do not want the associated training cost involved with pilot migration. If we cull the top of the work list, i.e. the 'Legacy' carriers then there will be a waterfall effect as many managers will take into account the lack of ability to move carrier for better T's & C's. This action will have a huge affect on the industry over the next 10-15 years as the accountants and managers seek ever more innovative ways to cut costs in the face of rising fuel prices and reduced profit margins.
We, as professional people, cannot allow this to happen. Sure, the idea of DEC long haul trans Atlantic flying seems very appealing until you look at the fixed wages including any variable pay. These do not change. They are fixed for a fixed roster that will be very tiring indeed. After a few years then the novelty will wear off but the airline does not want to let you move fleet or airline. They do not want OS on the mainline seniority roster as then in 10 years time they will not be useful as a lever.
This is not just about BA Mainline wanting to maintain their 'cash cow' it is about wanting to preserve the conditions of employment in the future.
You decide.
BA Strike
No personal axe to grind folks but....,
I really fail to see just why the travelling public continue to use both BA as an airline & EGLL as an airport. All in all, both organisations I contend are an absolute shower & I would not touch either of them with even a small barge pole!!
Perhaps it would be nice for a change if the pax decided to go on strike for a few days. You know those people who put bums on seats & in doing so pour lots of cash into both the BA & BAA coffers.
I really fail to see just why the travelling public continue to use both BA as an airline & EGLL as an airport. All in all, both organisations I contend are an absolute shower & I would not touch either of them with even a small barge pole!!
Perhaps it would be nice for a change if the pax decided to go on strike for a few days. You know those people who put bums on seats & in doing so pour lots of cash into both the BA & BAA coffers.
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You know those people who put bums on seats & in doing so pour lots of cash into both the BA & BAA coffers.
Ditto for the BAA.
The airports/airlines in Europe must be laughing their sox off...
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Kc135777
KC135777,
Please got off your high horse!
I am a fully licensed aircraft engineer on A319/20/21, A330, A340, A340-500/600. B747-100/200/300/400, B767-200/300, B777-200/200ER/300/300ER. AND a commercial pilot on A320 series aircraft.
I would like to point out to you that as a PILOT I trained for a period approaching 14 MONTHS over a period of time.
As an ENGINEER I trained for 5 YEARS contunuiously before getting my license to work on aircraft. While I dont dispute the skill involved in flying, (bear in mind im a pilot as well) you are seeking credit above where its due. Are you saying that pilots working for other companies apart from BA are less than you? Is someone working for Virgin flying the 400 less competent?
I am a contractor and either fly or fix depending on what pays best for a given period. I dont care! My lifestyle is dependant on what I choose, and I live my life as I WANT. Not as how MANAGEMENT want me to live. Hence I am a CONTRACTOR!
However, please remember I am with you all and fully understand what your doing and strike action is not for the feint of heart. Terms and conditions should not be allowed to slip and any erosion of them would pose a problem for us all.
I just wanted to make a point that being a pilot does not make you God.
Engineers have the same responsibilites of a pilot (lives in hand) but as a pilot forgoes those responsibilities when he walks off the aircraft (Im still a pilot) the engineer still has same responsibility until the check is done again or another work carried out.
AND to KC135777 I was offered a job at BA (pilot) but turned it down! Not to my style of living (is working living?).
Flying Spanner
Please got off your high horse!
I am a fully licensed aircraft engineer on A319/20/21, A330, A340, A340-500/600. B747-100/200/300/400, B767-200/300, B777-200/200ER/300/300ER. AND a commercial pilot on A320 series aircraft.
I would like to point out to you that as a PILOT I trained for a period approaching 14 MONTHS over a period of time.
As an ENGINEER I trained for 5 YEARS contunuiously before getting my license to work on aircraft. While I dont dispute the skill involved in flying, (bear in mind im a pilot as well) you are seeking credit above where its due. Are you saying that pilots working for other companies apart from BA are less than you? Is someone working for Virgin flying the 400 less competent?
I am a contractor and either fly or fix depending on what pays best for a given period. I dont care! My lifestyle is dependant on what I choose, and I live my life as I WANT. Not as how MANAGEMENT want me to live. Hence I am a CONTRACTOR!
However, please remember I am with you all and fully understand what your doing and strike action is not for the feint of heart. Terms and conditions should not be allowed to slip and any erosion of them would pose a problem for us all.
I just wanted to make a point that being a pilot does not make you God.
Engineers have the same responsibilites of a pilot (lives in hand) but as a pilot forgoes those responsibilities when he walks off the aircraft (Im still a pilot) the engineer still has same responsibility until the check is done again or another work carried out.
AND to KC135777 I was offered a job at BA (pilot) but turned it down! Not to my style of living (is working living?).
Flying Spanner
Last edited by FlyingSpanner; 2nd Mar 2008 at 03:47. Reason: Spelling
Mistrust in Management
FlyingSpanner
I am a fully licensed aircraft engineer on A319/20/21, A330, A340, A340-500/600. B747-100/200/300/400, B767-200/300, B777-200/200ER/300/300ER.
How did you do all that stuff? Coeh!!! some guy - and then a pilot - unbelievable.
Regards
Exeng
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Exeng
Did it as EX BA Overseas engineer!
Whenever they had 10 min with me doing nothing they put me on a course.
I just wanted to make a point that pilots are not Gods Gift. I spent more time training for being an engineer than a pilot, however I get more respect for being a pilot. Go figure?
If you doubt me I can send you a copy of my EASA 66 engineers license AND my UK CAA issued JAR Pilot License with appropriate A320 endorsement!
Flying Spanner!
P.S. Whats a 707? Born in 72!
Whenever they had 10 min with me doing nothing they put me on a course.
I just wanted to make a point that pilots are not Gods Gift. I spent more time training for being an engineer than a pilot, however I get more respect for being a pilot. Go figure?
If you doubt me I can send you a copy of my EASA 66 engineers license AND my UK CAA issued JAR Pilot License with appropriate A320 endorsement!
Flying Spanner!
P.S. Whats a 707? Born in 72!
Last edited by FlyingSpanner; 2nd Mar 2008 at 00:56. Reason: Missed a bit
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Let me tell you what I am fully licensed on then. Wait for it!!??!! A B.707-336 airframe with a 436 addition.
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I just wanted to make a point that pilots are not Gods Gift. I spent more time training for being an engineer than a pilot, however I get more respect for being a pilot. Go figure?
Seriously though, I have found that the only ones to have that idea are either straight out of flying school and haven't yet learnt their fallibility or mortality and those that have sat their entire life in a safe shiny tube and haven't yet had it bite them badly and necessitate the sudden realisation that they, perhaps, are not immortal!
Most of us (professional pilots) are well aware of our limits and fallibilities and also many of us, myself included, have degrees and training outside of the aviation environment and thus tend to have a somewhat more grounded view of the job.
I do like to be properly recompensed for my responsibility however and the constant degradation of T's & C's over the last few years is not representative of the job we ALL do.
Dear Flying spanner,
I too have a B1/B2 ( plus old section L) licence with loads of cover (ex BA Gatwick engineer) and now fly the A319 for the orange mob. This is however irrelvant to the thread!!
My first (flying) job was at Ryanair where I watched the terms and conditions deteriorate month after month and the majority of pilots roll over and take it , just because they got the base they wanted or early command etc etc. BALAP and REPA attempted to help the pilots break this sprial but most are not interested.
My point is, If BA pilots have the unity and courage to stand up to management then good luck to them. It sends a signal to the shirts behind the desks that the union has strength and this can only be good for the rest of us in BALPA. I for one support them ! Let us not get into a discussion about BA as a whole or flying from LHR etc.
ps. As an ex OSE you probably had a lot of free time, when not on the beach or raising ADD's
I too have a B1/B2 ( plus old section L) licence with loads of cover (ex BA Gatwick engineer) and now fly the A319 for the orange mob. This is however irrelvant to the thread!!
My first (flying) job was at Ryanair where I watched the terms and conditions deteriorate month after month and the majority of pilots roll over and take it , just because they got the base they wanted or early command etc etc. BALAP and REPA attempted to help the pilots break this sprial but most are not interested.
My point is, If BA pilots have the unity and courage to stand up to management then good luck to them. It sends a signal to the shirts behind the desks that the union has strength and this can only be good for the rest of us in BALPA. I for one support them ! Let us not get into a discussion about BA as a whole or flying from LHR etc.
ps. As an ex OSE you probably had a lot of free time, when not on the beach or raising ADD's
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Apologies for off topic!
Apologies if I went a bit off topic with my little rant and spat. 
I was just trying to make the point to KC135777 that what we do in flying the aircraft is a skill. And as such it can be learned through practice and a certain amount of dexterity.
Does it mean that everyone can do it? No absolutly not, but then again not everyone can drive.
Regards to terms and conditions I am fully behind you BA boys and hope that you give the management what it deserves.
I was stuck for hours at LHR due to complete incompetence of management. Few weeks ago with the high winds for a few days, aircraft delayed to EDI because of - wait for it - there was only 1 dispatcher on and then when he had issued the paperwork it was past 2230 so the tug drivers left and there was only 1 tug crew on all of T1 to push out 15 delayed aircraft.
Now why was this left to happen? Could management not pay a bit of overtime for the staff and arrange a couple of more people? BA has lost the good will of the staff, and now in any time of crisis its all falls apart.
It really takes some b@lls to walk out the door but I believe its your only option left. BA terms and conditions were fought for over the years and if you let this start at BA then there will be such a knock on effect for the rest of the industry its not worth thinking about.
Go get em!
Flying Spanner
P.S. being an OSE was great but again management managed to F
K that up as well!!!
I was just trying to make the point to KC135777 that what we do in flying the aircraft is a skill. And as such it can be learned through practice and a certain amount of dexterity.
Does it mean that everyone can do it? No absolutly not, but then again not everyone can drive.
Regards to terms and conditions I am fully behind you BA boys and hope that you give the management what it deserves.
I was stuck for hours at LHR due to complete incompetence of management. Few weeks ago with the high winds for a few days, aircraft delayed to EDI because of - wait for it - there was only 1 dispatcher on and then when he had issued the paperwork it was past 2230 so the tug drivers left and there was only 1 tug crew on all of T1 to push out 15 delayed aircraft.
Now why was this left to happen? Could management not pay a bit of overtime for the staff and arrange a couple of more people? BA has lost the good will of the staff, and now in any time of crisis its all falls apart.
It really takes some b@lls to walk out the door but I believe its your only option left. BA terms and conditions were fought for over the years and if you let this start at BA then there will be such a knock on effect for the rest of the industry its not worth thinking about.
Go get em!
Flying Spanner
P.S. being an OSE was great but again management managed to F
K that up as well!!!
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FlyingSpanner,
Yes, there is only one God- and he is not me.
No high horse here.
Yes, flying is a skill, BUT it goes beyond that.
As I mentioned, when things go wrong it takes more than skill
to make it right, and conclude the flight safely.
KC
Yes, there is only one God- and he is not me.
No high horse here.
Yes, flying is a skill, BUT it goes beyond that.
As I mentioned, when things go wrong it takes more than skill
to make it right, and conclude the flight safely.
KC
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Wobble2plank,
You mentioned, " This process has been very closely watched and scrutinized by all airlines around the world."
Oh, they do WAY more than watch- they actually collude and collaborate through www.aircon.org
Check out the members and international members too...their mission statement, etc....
Oh yeah, a "not for profit organization" my bum!
OMG, last time I mentioned www.aircon.org, I got suspended for a week by the moderator for "arrogance in spades". oops!
KC
You mentioned, " This process has been very closely watched and scrutinized by all airlines around the world."
Oh, they do WAY more than watch- they actually collude and collaborate through www.aircon.org
Check out the members and international members too...their mission statement, etc....
Oh yeah, a "not for profit organization" my bum!
OMG, last time I mentioned www.aircon.org, I got suspended for a week by the moderator for "arrogance in spades". oops!
KC
