BA Pilot Ballot results
PPRuNe Person
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if they fly in and out of the UK
But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now, look up the expression "Pyrrhic Victory."
Dysag: Ask yourself would the 'future travelling public' prefer to have their aircraft flown by the lowest bidder?
Join Date: Oct 2007
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As I understand it OS are offering a market competitive package, it is just lower than that offered by BA mainline to its pilots. I think it's a little much to start making the OS candidates look like cheap labour!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
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Remind me of the starting pay for FOs at Open Skies and the expected annual flying hours. Did we mention their right to change your home base at their leisure? What about the cost of positioning to and from the allocated EU base of choice of this UK registered airline?
PPRuNe Person
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As I understand it OS are offering a market competitive package
Why not adopt the United/Ted model and include some of your most loyal workforce at the planning stage?
Controversial, moi?
But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now.........
Join Date: May 2000
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pacamack - you don't have to be BA management, however you do use the same slippery arguments they do and you start from the identical standpoint that management are fundamentally trustworthy, would never break an agreement and there really isn't anything to worry about. Perhaps you aren't management, but it does seem a strange coincidence that you share their view of themselves.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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If the OS T & C are crap, underpaid and overworked then pilots will not apply for the jobs.
If the jobs are filled then the pilot market can stand these T & C and those who currently work on better conditions are in a priviliged position.
Straight commercial drive will eventually force everyones T & C down to a common level until another operator is brave enough to break the circle and up the stakes by offering a better set of conditions.
Pilots then migrate to the company with the better T & C.
It has been happening in industry for ever. Nothing new.
Trying to stop it happening is like standing in the middle of M25 with your hand up trying to stop the traffic.
If the jobs are filled then the pilot market can stand these T & C and those who currently work on better conditions are in a priviliged position.
Straight commercial drive will eventually force everyones T & C down to a common level until another operator is brave enough to break the circle and up the stakes by offering a better set of conditions.
Pilots then migrate to the company with the better T & C.
It has been happening in industry for ever. Nothing new.
Trying to stop it happening is like standing in the middle of M25 with your hand up trying to stop the traffic.
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Of course the major flaw in that argument is that pilots tend to be bound by seniority systems across the industry which makes it extremely difficult to migrate to another operator unless you are prepared to commit to them for 10+ years.
PPRuNe Person
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vino collapso: perhaps a tad too much of the liquid named in your 'handle'?
The industry has plenty of examples where BALPA's desired outcome has taken place.
The effect of the commercial drive you refer to is to increase the number of aircraft hulls across the world beyond the point where management can recruit pilots to crew them.
The industry has plenty of examples where BALPA's desired outcome has taken place.
The effect of the commercial drive you refer to is to increase the number of aircraft hulls across the world beyond the point where management can recruit pilots to crew them.
PPRuNe Person
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Packamack:
You don't, but there are 60,000+ pilots across the world supporting us and a few BA managers masquerading as indignant pax on PPRuNe opposing us!
Why do I have to be BA management to disagree with your position?
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Overstress - It seems to be a dark and lonely place that you hail from my friend. I apologise if this seems derogatory, it is genuinely not my intent, but I really hope there is sunshine and laughter elsewhere in your life.
It's cut the c*ap time again - Airline's need Managers as much as they do all other disciplines. Not all Management teams are in the act of scre*ing their employees. Equally though - I would feel very sorry for ANY Manager, BA or otherwise, who would feel they needed to impersonate being a customer to attempt to seek reason and compassion from anyone on this forum.
More "no nonsense" facts coupled with sound and reasoned debate would be nice to see...
It's cut the c*ap time again - Airline's need Managers as much as they do all other disciplines. Not all Management teams are in the act of scre*ing their employees. Equally though - I would feel very sorry for ANY Manager, BA or otherwise, who would feel they needed to impersonate being a customer to attempt to seek reason and compassion from anyone on this forum.
More "no nonsense" facts coupled with sound and reasoned debate would be nice to see...
PPRuNe Person
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Thank you for your concern, BA FAIR MANAGER, but where I am the sun shines every day and I am not at all lonely, 86% of my colleagues have gone on record to express the same view as me.
Furthermore, I have the backing of tens of thousands of other pilots across the globe.
The "Chief Pilot" of this forum has exposed BA MANAGERS making multiple postings using different personae - I would suggest that for an individual to descend to those depths, it is in fact they who are lonely.
You like "no nonsense" facts: in that case I refer again to the example of United/Ted. In that company, they believe in consultation of their key employees. You could do well to recommend the same approach to your colleagues.
PS: why do people use the phrase "my friend" when it's obvious they're nothing of the kind?
Furthermore, I have the backing of tens of thousands of other pilots across the globe.
The "Chief Pilot" of this forum has exposed BA MANAGERS making multiple postings using different personae - I would suggest that for an individual to descend to those depths, it is in fact they who are lonely.
You like "no nonsense" facts: in that case I refer again to the example of United/Ted. In that company, they believe in consultation of their key employees. You could do well to recommend the same approach to your colleagues.
PS: why do people use the phrase "my friend" when it's obvious they're nothing of the kind?
Last edited by overstress; 26th Feb 2008 at 08:12.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Next time you fly on holiday (or perhaps in a few years time), why not go and look into the eyes of the pilots (many with children) at the controls who just realised that their terms and conditions had been eroded by about 30%.
If one can't find a job with the conditions one wants, may be this is exactly how much one is worth and the pay is fair? If the employer was worries that he can't find anybody to fill the position the conditions would improve instead of been eroded.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I have been following this thread with interest because I work for BA Engineering and would like BA to keep flying, there is an outside chance of a bonus this year!
I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?
I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?
Join Date: Sep 2005
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"Of course the major flaw in that argument is that pilots tend to be bound by seniority systems across the industry which makes it extremely difficult to migrate to another operator unless you are prepared to commit to them for 10+ years."
Been reading this thread from the start, and understood that it wasn't about T's and C's, that is already agreed with Balpa This dispute is more about forcing BA to put Open Skies pilots onto the BA senority list from what i understand?
Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?
Been reading this thread from the start, and understood that it wasn't about T's and C's, that is already agreed with Balpa This dispute is more about forcing BA to put Open Skies pilots onto the BA senority list from what i understand?
Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?
Join Date: Oct 2007
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lordsummerisle
An excellent point. Surely seniority systems distort the market by making it more dificult for pilots to shop around for the best T&Cs. If carriers effectively have thier pilots "locked in" then where is the incentive for them to raise T&Cs. The very system you BA Pilots are fighting to protect must be depressing T&Cs across the industry?
Controversial, moi?
I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?
Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?