BA Pilot Ballot results
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I presume pacamack and serguei are not stupid but both continually seem to ignore the explanations and endlessly repeat the same simplistic observations.
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By all means, hand in your cards if you don't like the corporation you are working for (But I guess you wouldn't do that if it was to take a voluntary reduction in pay of 50% AND a demotion).
Taking into account the potential 'casualties' at stake here and knowing the small cost that a back-down would result in, why do you feel the pilots are at fault here?
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Dear Serguei
With the greatest of respect, you are talking out of your arse. Your last post quite clearly prooves that.
Right Engine
You are far too patient (are you a trainer?)
With the greatest of respect, you are talking out of your arse. Your last post quite clearly prooves that.
Right Engine
You are far too patient (are you a trainer?)
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Serguei, what a drama queen you are. I think the pilots are too much gentlemen/ladies to tell you where to stick your ticket. I'm not a pilot but I'm 100% behind these guys and gals.
Daz
Daz
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Well guys and gals...
Slightly different angle to this mess...
This time last year, BA were gleefully telling the UK out-stations that they were replacing their staff with a handling agent. In effect an OS on the ground. Cheaper, 'efficient' and a lower costbase... and as far as the passenger was concerned, business as usual...
Minimum wage, no benefits and basically no experienced staff apart from the few BA staff members that moved over...
This philosophy is now 'creeping' in elsewhere in BA, albeit on a different scale and at a different pace... Over time, who knows what will happen.
No one jumped up and down for the regions and look at the mess they are in now or are they
Slightly different angle to this mess...
This time last year, BA were gleefully telling the UK out-stations that they were replacing their staff with a handling agent. In effect an OS on the ground. Cheaper, 'efficient' and a lower costbase... and as far as the passenger was concerned, business as usual...
Minimum wage, no benefits and basically no experienced staff apart from the few BA staff members that moved over...
This philosophy is now 'creeping' in elsewhere in BA, albeit on a different scale and at a different pace... Over time, who knows what will happen.
No one jumped up and down for the regions and look at the mess they are in now or are they
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Tristar500,
It is sad news to hear of the gradual hand over to third party handlers. It's not something we, the pilots, were happy with. On most occasions the service has deteriorated. Such cost cuts tend to bite us on the a**e at a later date when these third parties have a monopoly/duopoly at the airport in question. Consequently BA are put in a position to pay up or get no service at all because often the duopoly that exists enters a 'cosy' arrangement that is reliable on gentlemens agreements not to undercut each other.
If the industry was not so tied up with short term business goals, that feather the nests of a few entitled senior managers we wouldn't end up with the situation you desribe.
Serguie,
For reasons of differing intellect I'm not capable of continuing this debate with you. It reminds me too much of a Catherine Tate sketch.
Lo(o)sing the plot,
Right Engine
It is sad news to hear of the gradual hand over to third party handlers. It's not something we, the pilots, were happy with. On most occasions the service has deteriorated. Such cost cuts tend to bite us on the a**e at a later date when these third parties have a monopoly/duopoly at the airport in question. Consequently BA are put in a position to pay up or get no service at all because often the duopoly that exists enters a 'cosy' arrangement that is reliable on gentlemens agreements not to undercut each other.
If the industry was not so tied up with short term business goals, that feather the nests of a few entitled senior managers we wouldn't end up with the situation you desribe.
Serguie,
For reasons of differing intellect I'm not capable of continuing this debate with you. It reminds me too much of a Catherine Tate sketch.
Lo(o)sing the plot,
Right Engine
Controversial, moi?
This is ordinary everyday life for most people and has been for years.
I ask again, what's magically special about BA pilots that they alone should be immune from it?
I ask again, what's magically special about BA pilots that they alone should be immune from it?
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Sydney Morning Herald.
Now I'm not a BA pilot, I'm BA cabin crew. I support BALPA's stance and hope my own union follows. In the meantime here is an interesting article regarding Qantas/Jetstar and importantly the future if we are not careful.
Qantas plans two-tier workforce
February 23, 2008
QANTAS has signalled plans to establish a two-tiered workforce that will see some full-time employees hired on less pay and lower conditions than existing staff.
After outlining its intention this week to slash a further $1.5 billion in annual costs by mid-2010, Qantas praised as "groundbreaking" its new five-year enterprise agreement with the long-haul flight attendants union.
The agreement reached last November will see new cabin crew work 30 per cent more hours on 25 per cent less pay than Qantas's existing long-haul flight attendants. It is believed the deal will save Qantas at least $40 million a year in labour costs.
Some other union bosses are dismayed that the Flight Attendants Association of Australia signed the deal. But the union has argued that it had no choice, given Qantas's plans to hire cut-rate staff via a subsidiary company whether it struck a deal with the union or not.
The deal represents the first move by Qantas to seek the increased efficiencies and lower wages that it already has achieved from its low-cost offshoot, Jetstar
Now Qantas is stepping up its message that it wants other unions to follow the example. There are suspicions that Qantas now has its second largest union, the Transport Workers Union, in its sights. The TWU, which is due to start EBA talks, did not return calls.
In a media release yesterday, Qantas trumpeted its plans - already signalled last year - to hire 2000 new cabin crew by the end of 2010.
"The competitive terms and conditions negotiated under the EBA have enabled us to create these new positions," said the airline's chief executive, Geoff Dixon.
The media release follows the message by Mr Dixon at the company's profit results briefing on Thursday that the flight attendants' agreement would "need to be the type of deal we have as we go forward with[other] unions".
"All the enterprise bargaining agreements that we're concluding have to be aimed at making sure that we're competitive, both domestically and internationally, with other airlines," he said.
"And have to be able to ensure that we can give adequate returns to our shareholders, while making quite massive investments in product and in aircraft."
The assistant secretary of the Australian Services Union, Linda White, said Qantas management needed to be aware that it would not foster any loyalty among its staff if it attempted to erode conditions, especially in a tight labour market. "If they p*ss off customers, they don't stay around and it's the same for the Australian workforce," she said.
Ms White said the move would also have an impact on Qantas's level of service.
The general manager for airlines, John Borghetti, denied Qantas was seeking to create a "two-class" workforce.
"Here is a perfect example of the company and union working together for the benefit of Qantas employees and shareholders enabling the company to grow," he said
Qantas plans two-tier workforce
February 23, 2008
QANTAS has signalled plans to establish a two-tiered workforce that will see some full-time employees hired on less pay and lower conditions than existing staff.
After outlining its intention this week to slash a further $1.5 billion in annual costs by mid-2010, Qantas praised as "groundbreaking" its new five-year enterprise agreement with the long-haul flight attendants union.
The agreement reached last November will see new cabin crew work 30 per cent more hours on 25 per cent less pay than Qantas's existing long-haul flight attendants. It is believed the deal will save Qantas at least $40 million a year in labour costs.
Some other union bosses are dismayed that the Flight Attendants Association of Australia signed the deal. But the union has argued that it had no choice, given Qantas's plans to hire cut-rate staff via a subsidiary company whether it struck a deal with the union or not.
The deal represents the first move by Qantas to seek the increased efficiencies and lower wages that it already has achieved from its low-cost offshoot, Jetstar
Now Qantas is stepping up its message that it wants other unions to follow the example. There are suspicions that Qantas now has its second largest union, the Transport Workers Union, in its sights. The TWU, which is due to start EBA talks, did not return calls.
In a media release yesterday, Qantas trumpeted its plans - already signalled last year - to hire 2000 new cabin crew by the end of 2010.
"The competitive terms and conditions negotiated under the EBA have enabled us to create these new positions," said the airline's chief executive, Geoff Dixon.
The media release follows the message by Mr Dixon at the company's profit results briefing on Thursday that the flight attendants' agreement would "need to be the type of deal we have as we go forward with[other] unions".
"All the enterprise bargaining agreements that we're concluding have to be aimed at making sure that we're competitive, both domestically and internationally, with other airlines," he said.
"And have to be able to ensure that we can give adequate returns to our shareholders, while making quite massive investments in product and in aircraft."
The assistant secretary of the Australian Services Union, Linda White, said Qantas management needed to be aware that it would not foster any loyalty among its staff if it attempted to erode conditions, especially in a tight labour market. "If they p*ss off customers, they don't stay around and it's the same for the Australian workforce," she said.
Ms White said the move would also have an impact on Qantas's level of service.
The general manager for airlines, John Borghetti, denied Qantas was seeking to create a "two-class" workforce.
"Here is a perfect example of the company and union working together for the benefit of Qantas employees and shareholders enabling the company to grow," he said
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I recognise the wind-up merchants for what they are, and am tempted to follow Tandemrotor's advice. There isn't anything more to be said until the results of the conciliation meetings are known.
I'll leave the likes of BA FAIR MANAGER etc to order their e-baguettes
I'll leave the likes of BA FAIR MANAGER etc to order their e-baguettes
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Tristar 500
Re the 'outsourcing' of BA ground services.
I work at EDI.
BA ground handling /dispatch / bag handling etc was **** when I started there in 1999.
I'm still (unfortunately) there now and it's still ****.
I may as well ad that the SAME people are still doing 'the job' but now they work for Aviance.
Meantimes, at GLA, the guys and gals plug away as usual- do a good job- and seem not to mind whose badge they wear.
Is their a lesson there?
Re the 'outsourcing' of BA ground services.
I work at EDI.
BA ground handling /dispatch / bag handling etc was **** when I started there in 1999.
I'm still (unfortunately) there now and it's still ****.
I may as well ad that the SAME people are still doing 'the job' but now they work for Aviance.
Meantimes, at GLA, the guys and gals plug away as usual- do a good job- and seem not to mind whose badge they wear.
Is their a lesson there?
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Overstress - I reiterate my sympathies for you fella..I really do..
Now, to continue some impartial and rational discussions with others. QANTAS has been mentioned on here as an example, but there are others, e.g. Australian Airlines (part of QANTAS) and DragonAir (Now fully absorbed by Cathay I believe). Anyone with previous history, or an understanding as to what drove these models initially, and why they have ceased to exist ??
Now, to continue some impartial and rational discussions with others. QANTAS has been mentioned on here as an example, but there are others, e.g. Australian Airlines (part of QANTAS) and DragonAir (Now fully absorbed by Cathay I believe). Anyone with previous history, or an understanding as to what drove these models initially, and why they have ceased to exist ??
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Overstress says.......
I recognise the wind-up merchants for what they are, and am tempted to follow Tandemrotor's advice. There isn't anything more to be said until the results of the conciliation meetings are known.
This thread in the past 48hrs has just repeated the pilots case again and again. We know their views - 86% of them endorsed it last week !!!! Lets now wait for any OFFICIAL announcement following the current (?) concilliation talks. Only then will there be something additional and meaningful to say.
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I may as well ad that the SAME people are still doing 'the job' but now they work for Aviance.
Meantimes, at GLA, the guys and gals plug away as usual- do a good job- and seem not to mind whose badge they wear.
Is their a lesson there?
Meantimes, at GLA, the guys and gals plug away as usual- do a good job- and seem not to mind whose badge they wear.
Is their a lesson there?
I'll be supporting any action by BA staff, even though I'm likely to end up on the receiving end of the disruption.
This country has few union rights left - glad to see them being used when appropriate.
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Nebpor,
Thank you. I quite agree the outsourcing of our frontline staff has only impacted on one person, you the customer. Thanks also for your support. Trust me when I say that, despite my determination, we do not use these options lightly. They are very much a tool of last resort and reluctantly employed as such.
Thank you. I quite agree the outsourcing of our frontline staff has only impacted on one person, you the customer. Thanks also for your support. Trust me when I say that, despite my determination, we do not use these options lightly. They are very much a tool of last resort and reluctantly employed as such.
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APA's brand new press release:
ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION EXPRESSES “UNEQUIVOCAL SUPPORT” FOR BRITISH AIRWAYS PILOTS IN OUTSOURCING DISPUTE
Fort Worth, Texas (February 27, 2008)—The Allied Pilots Association (APA), collective bargaining agent for the 12,000 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE: AMR), expressed its “unequivocal support” for British Airways’ pilots in the ongoing outsourcing dispute at the UK carrier.
British Airways has announced a new, stand-alone airline named OpenSkies scheduled to operate between New York and Paris beginning in June, using a single Boeing 757 configured with 82 seats in premium business, business and coach classes. Further plans call for six 757s by the end of next year. Pilots for OpenSkies will not be drawn from the existing British Airways pilots’ seniority list.
“As far as outsourcing is concerned, the British Airways pilots’ struggle is our struggle,” said APA President Captain Lloyd Hill. “Accordingly, we have pledged a broad range of support to our fellow pilots at British Airways, including personnel and financial resources, to help resist plans by their airline’s management to establish an alter ego operation.”
Eighty-six percent of British Airways pilots recently voted to authorize a strike in response to management’s plans for OpenSkies. A strike would be the first in almost 30 years for British Airways pilots.
“Our pilots have experienced firsthand the career damage brought about by outsourcing,” Hill said. “We stand foursquare behind our British Airways colleagues in their efforts to stop this threat to our collective livelihoods.”
ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION EXPRESSES “UNEQUIVOCAL SUPPORT” FOR BRITISH AIRWAYS PILOTS IN OUTSOURCING DISPUTE
Fort Worth, Texas (February 27, 2008)—The Allied Pilots Association (APA), collective bargaining agent for the 12,000 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE: AMR), expressed its “unequivocal support” for British Airways’ pilots in the ongoing outsourcing dispute at the UK carrier.
British Airways has announced a new, stand-alone airline named OpenSkies scheduled to operate between New York and Paris beginning in June, using a single Boeing 757 configured with 82 seats in premium business, business and coach classes. Further plans call for six 757s by the end of next year. Pilots for OpenSkies will not be drawn from the existing British Airways pilots’ seniority list.
“As far as outsourcing is concerned, the British Airways pilots’ struggle is our struggle,” said APA President Captain Lloyd Hill. “Accordingly, we have pledged a broad range of support to our fellow pilots at British Airways, including personnel and financial resources, to help resist plans by their airline’s management to establish an alter ego operation.”
Eighty-six percent of British Airways pilots recently voted to authorize a strike in response to management’s plans for OpenSkies. A strike would be the first in almost 30 years for British Airways pilots.
“Our pilots have experienced firsthand the career damage brought about by outsourcing,” Hill said. “We stand foursquare behind our British Airways colleagues in their efforts to stop this threat to our collective livelihoods.”
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What routes are OS supposed to be operating....oh yes....Europe main airports to th USA.
If they were to succeed would this impact on American carriers payloads?
Hmmmmm!
If they were to succeed would this impact on American carriers payloads?
Hmmmmm!
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Sorry, collapso - the flaw in your "hmmmm" is that this is going to happen anyway, the Americans recognise it, they just don't want us to be sold down the river like they were.