BA Pilot Ballot results
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I have been following this thread with interest because I work for BA Engineering and would like BA to keep flying, there is an outside chance of a bonus this year!
I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?
I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?
BTW the bonus went down the pan when our managers got caugt price fixing. A £350M fine, plus passenger compensation, plus the next fine for fixing cargo prices will make a big dent in that 11.5% margin!
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Seniority - Why it exists
To any passengers/media wishing to understand seniority.
Seniority was not conjured up by protectionist unions. It was devised by the legacy carriers during times of rapid expansion, when they discovered that many of the pilots were leaving to fly for other carriers.
It has distinct advantages regarding safety. Whistle-blowers are encouraged in our profession. Knowing that 'opportunity for promotion' will not be denied on the basis of that whistle blowing, forms the foundation to the healthy safety culture within the legacy carriers pilot communities. We are not frightened to talk about any misgivings within the operation.
Ask any CAA safety officer his opinions about Air Safety Reports, particularly with reference to the number received from non-seniority listed airlines!
Market forces that are suppressed by 'seniority lists' don't help the cause of pilots should they wish to leave to a higher paid job, but unless multi-lateral abolition of seniority lists occurs Worldwide on the same day, seniority lists will always give the most advantage to a) Airline Safety and b) Pilot retention.
Seniority lists mean fairness, safety and transparency towards promotion. Do you want your Captain to be the best brown-noser at the base or a person who has your safety interests at heart?
Finally, there is some meritocracy in the legacy airlines, not everyone PASSES a command course! Consequently the most skilled/experienced pilots are in charge. Everyone gets their turn, but not on the basis of sycophancy or more bluntly 'failure to blow whistle'.
Seniority was not conjured up by protectionist unions. It was devised by the legacy carriers during times of rapid expansion, when they discovered that many of the pilots were leaving to fly for other carriers.
It has distinct advantages regarding safety. Whistle-blowers are encouraged in our profession. Knowing that 'opportunity for promotion' will not be denied on the basis of that whistle blowing, forms the foundation to the healthy safety culture within the legacy carriers pilot communities. We are not frightened to talk about any misgivings within the operation.
Ask any CAA safety officer his opinions about Air Safety Reports, particularly with reference to the number received from non-seniority listed airlines!
Market forces that are suppressed by 'seniority lists' don't help the cause of pilots should they wish to leave to a higher paid job, but unless multi-lateral abolition of seniority lists occurs Worldwide on the same day, seniority lists will always give the most advantage to a) Airline Safety and b) Pilot retention.
Seniority lists mean fairness, safety and transparency towards promotion. Do you want your Captain to be the best brown-noser at the base or a person who has your safety interests at heart?
Finally, there is some meritocracy in the legacy airlines, not everyone PASSES a command course! Consequently the most skilled/experienced pilots are in charge. Everyone gets their turn, but not on the basis of sycophancy or more bluntly 'failure to blow whistle'.
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The argument that I have seen numerous times on this forum is that failure of OS to adopt a seniority system will cause a widespead colapse in pilot T&Cs. Market mechanisms would indicate that this would not be the case.
BALPA have catecorically stated that this issue
"is not about money; and it is not about safety (whatever today’s Times headline writers might think)"
So if a move towards a more free and open market would have a possitive effect on T&Cs and BALPA are not fighting on a safety agenda, what is the strike all about?
BALPA have catecorically stated that this issue
"is not about money; and it is not about safety (whatever today’s Times headline writers might think)"
So if a move towards a more free and open market would have a possitive effect on T&Cs and BALPA are not fighting on a safety agenda, what is the strike all about?
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I have just turned down another solicutaion for interview. This time by phone. The reasons are but not limited to:
Many applicants for OS are transient types, normally found paying ryr for a job or hoping from one company to another unable to settle. I have seen the profile of some and know a couple more.
They see it for what it is, a back door to BA. If they havent got one they want a meritocracy command and will do WHATEVER it takes to get it. BA see them for what they are, cheap,transient and maleable. Most had colourful backgrounds (read perishing agitators for agitations sake) at other companies and more jobs in the last few years than Peter Mandelson.
In short they are the pain in the arse oppurtunistic , troublesome, and usually far less talented than they think diaspora of the industry. Perfect fodder for the BA managers crafty intent. Although Sops are anathema to these types.. Should be fun if it ever gets off the ground.
This amongst many other reasons gets the ba pilots my full support.
Its a line in the sand for the ulcers we have as management in this industry. Apart from our peter of course
Many applicants for OS are transient types, normally found paying ryr for a job or hoping from one company to another unable to settle. I have seen the profile of some and know a couple more.
They see it for what it is, a back door to BA. If they havent got one they want a meritocracy command and will do WHATEVER it takes to get it. BA see them for what they are, cheap,transient and maleable. Most had colourful backgrounds (read perishing agitators for agitations sake) at other companies and more jobs in the last few years than Peter Mandelson.
In short they are the pain in the arse oppurtunistic , troublesome, and usually far less talented than they think diaspora of the industry. Perfect fodder for the BA managers crafty intent. Although Sops are anathema to these types.. Should be fun if it ever gets off the ground.
This amongst many other reasons gets the ba pilots my full support.
Its a line in the sand for the ulcers we have as management in this industry. Apart from our peter of course
Last edited by peterowensfanclub; 26th Feb 2008 at 14:33. Reason: Clarity and not wanting to offend Eurotrash by associating them with OS
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Good question, Pacamack, although the answer has been repeated often in the previous postings.
You are failing to recognise the distinction between a BA pilot who works for OpenSkies and a BA pilot who doesn't. BALPA are welcoming the expansion. We accept the lower starter rates. We accept the scheduling agreement (Frightening thought it is!). We are also aware that by isolating the community from BA UK pilots, we are creating a competing internal market. As one of our esteemed reps said "It'll become a race to the bottom with pay, as each community is played off against each other". We would all enjoy the opportunity for market forces were it not for the fact that the 'market' is an internal one!
Possitive (sic) effects on T's and C's as I and many others have stated, is found when the job market allows for free movement of employees. Having explained the rationale behind seniority lists and the internal competing 'markets' of Open Skies versus BA mainline why do you not grasp the contradictions? We have a seniority system. It has many advantages (see previous post). Its' disadvantages are being used against us on this issue.
'Not fighting on the safety agenda'.
Personal opinion only. BALPA do not wish to link this issue to safety because they represent the interests of ALL UK pilots. Read the T's and C's of Open Skies and ask yourself the following.
How tired would you be if you did 14 transatlantic flights per month and all positioning to be done on days off at the expense of the pilot? Every month. For 5 years? Jetlag is a serious issue in all pilots lives. The OS scheduling agreement seems to ignore this.
How stable a home life could one get if Open Skies have the right to change your base once a year? That the base change was again at the expense of the employee with no help from the company? Are you looking for pilots with stable home lives and happy families or do you want pilots who are single journeymen with no place to call home (Unless 6 days a month counts as home!)
If those issues affect safety, it is not BALPA's responsibility to report them. It is for journalists and the general public to appreciate when booking their ticket.
"The argument that I have seen numerous times on this forum is that failure of OS to adopt a seniority system will cause a widespead colapse in pilot T&Cs. Market mechanisms would indicate that this would not be the case."
BALPA have catecorically stated that this issue
"is not about money; and it is not about safety (whatever today’s Times headline writers might think)"
So if a move towards a more free and open market would have a possitive effect on T&Cs and BALPA are not fighting on a safety agenda, what is the strike all about?
"is not about money; and it is not about safety (whatever today’s Times headline writers might think)"
So if a move towards a more free and open market would have a possitive effect on T&Cs and BALPA are not fighting on a safety agenda, what is the strike all about?
'Not fighting on the safety agenda'.
Personal opinion only. BALPA do not wish to link this issue to safety because they represent the interests of ALL UK pilots. Read the T's and C's of Open Skies and ask yourself the following.
How tired would you be if you did 14 transatlantic flights per month and all positioning to be done on days off at the expense of the pilot? Every month. For 5 years? Jetlag is a serious issue in all pilots lives. The OS scheduling agreement seems to ignore this.
How stable a home life could one get if Open Skies have the right to change your base once a year? That the base change was again at the expense of the employee with no help from the company? Are you looking for pilots with stable home lives and happy families or do you want pilots who are single journeymen with no place to call home (Unless 6 days a month counts as home!)
If those issues affect safety, it is not BALPA's responsibility to report them. It is for journalists and the general public to appreciate when booking their ticket.
Last edited by Right Engine; 17th Mar 2008 at 23:50.
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Isn't it the CAA's role to police safety. Do they not have to perform a thorough evaluation of the OS operation before they will issue an AOC. As I understand it this will include an assessment of proposed rostering and schedules.
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Pacamack - Who are you?
Pacamack.
I have read your posts that seem to suggest that you have
a) An above average awareness of the industry
b) A curious annoyance at BA pilots
c) A questioning nature.
You also have a forum name that suggest you are an 'independant traveller'.
You couldn't be the travel writer, Simon Calder by any chance? He is known for his excellent taste in Kagools, blinkered opinions of pilots and somewhat contradictory opinions on global warming and transcontinental travel.
If it is you Simon, I'm still working my 18 hour week with the other 42 hours remaining unpaid!
Pass the me the Wensledale grommit!
I have read your posts that seem to suggest that you have
a) An above average awareness of the industry
b) A curious annoyance at BA pilots
c) A questioning nature.
You also have a forum name that suggest you are an 'independant traveller'.
You couldn't be the travel writer, Simon Calder by any chance? He is known for his excellent taste in Kagools, blinkered opinions of pilots and somewhat contradictory opinions on global warming and transcontinental travel.
If it is you Simon, I'm still working my 18 hour week with the other 42 hours remaining unpaid!
Pass the me the Wensledale grommit!
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The previous post from Right Engine is rather like an episode of "WHATS MY LINE"
For those old enough to recall it
Before anyone asks - yes I am a GENUINE BA long haul ticket holder - Easter dates!!
Here hoping for a fair settlement soon
For those old enough to recall it
Before anyone asks - yes I am a GENUINE BA long haul ticket holder - Easter dates!!
Here hoping for a fair settlement soon
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Anyway, Simon/Pacamack. Back to your questions.
The CAA will do an audit of Open Skies (Although I look forward to how 'Glovin Robber' deals with the French CAA when they wish to see his particulars!).
But I did not bring the CAA into the discussion on the basis of Open Skies scheduling, did I?
I told you to "ask how many Air Safety Reports the CAA receive from non-seniority based airlines". That, Pacamack, is an entirely different strand to this thread which came about because I was explaining the history and importance of seniority lists.
....And, my little word mangler; I would bet my house that the CAAs' response would be, "We receive a disproportionately higher number of reports from BA compared to (say) Ryanair". When using the word disproportionate, I mean that if you divided the number of reports received by the number of flights. Why do you think that? (By the way, Simon that is another question. A question is something you respond to. Give it a go, it enables those who you debate with the opportunity to reach measured conclusions and gives other readers the enthusiasm to follow0
The CAA will do an audit of Open Skies (Although I look forward to how 'Glovin Robber' deals with the French CAA when they wish to see his particulars!).
But I did not bring the CAA into the discussion on the basis of Open Skies scheduling, did I?
I told you to "ask how many Air Safety Reports the CAA receive from non-seniority based airlines". That, Pacamack, is an entirely different strand to this thread which came about because I was explaining the history and importance of seniority lists.
....And, my little word mangler; I would bet my house that the CAAs' response would be, "We receive a disproportionately higher number of reports from BA compared to (say) Ryanair". When using the word disproportionate, I mean that if you divided the number of reports received by the number of flights. Why do you think that? (By the way, Simon that is another question. A question is something you respond to. Give it a go, it enables those who you debate with the opportunity to reach measured conclusions and gives other readers the enthusiasm to follow0
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Actualy Right Engine, my comments about the CAA were relating to your statement:
"How tired would you be if you did 7 transatlantic flights per month and all positioning to be done on days off at the expense of the pilot? Every month. For 5 years? Jetlag is a serious issue in all pilots lives. The OS scheduling agreement seems to ignore this.
Yes I am Simon Calder, I shot JFK and Elvis is alive and well in my basement?!!!
"How tired would you be if you did 7 transatlantic flights per month and all positioning to be done on days off at the expense of the pilot? Every month. For 5 years? Jetlag is a serious issue in all pilots lives. The OS scheduling agreement seems to ignore this.
Yes I am Simon Calder, I shot JFK and Elvis is alive and well in my basement?!!!
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Right Engine,
Sorry to intrude, but if this is indeed the case, and not just supposition on your part..
""We receive a disproportionately higher number of reports from BA compared to (say) Ryanair".
Then it could be read that possibly Ryanair are safer than BA? Not suggesting that is the case, but you know the old saying "lies, damned lies and statistics"
Sorry to intrude, but if this is indeed the case, and not just supposition on your part..
""We receive a disproportionately higher number of reports from BA compared to (say) Ryanair".
Then it could be read that possibly Ryanair are safer than BA? Not suggesting that is the case, but you know the old saying "lies, damned lies and statistics"
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Summerisle,
It might be worth reading the AAIB reports that Ryanair have starred in in the last few years to answer that question.
Pacamack,
The scheduling 'agreement' in its sparcity appears to be just legal, but it places the emphasis on positioning to home base on the shoulders of the pilot, which in conjunction with the annual base review makes it difficult to make allowances for fatigue, should one have the temerity to live away from the home base. I read the document as a fundamental denial of any homelife. I would hope that any overseeing Aviation Authority that signs off their AOC, whether it is British, French or US appreciates that.
Forgive me for missing your train of thought and give my regards to Elvis.
It might be worth reading the AAIB reports that Ryanair have starred in in the last few years to answer that question.
Pacamack,
The scheduling 'agreement' in its sparcity appears to be just legal, but it places the emphasis on positioning to home base on the shoulders of the pilot, which in conjunction with the annual base review makes it difficult to make allowances for fatigue, should one have the temerity to live away from the home base. I read the document as a fundamental denial of any homelife. I would hope that any overseeing Aviation Authority that signs off their AOC, whether it is British, French or US appreciates that.
Forgive me for missing your train of thought and give my regards to Elvis.
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Ok Seguei,
Your employer intends to attack your terms and conditions by some underhand and duplicitous method so do you:
a. Do nothing and have your family's future lifestyle further eroded.
b. Fight back to maintain the status quo (which isn't as good as you might think in the first place).
Your employer intends to attack your terms and conditions by some underhand and duplicitous method so do you:
a. Do nothing and have your family's future lifestyle further eroded.
b. Fight back to maintain the status quo (which isn't as good as you might think in the first place).
If my employer thinks that other people can do my job for less money good luck to him.
Would you like to explain to my children why they haven't had a holiday in 3 years either?
.
Controversial, moi?
I presume pacamack and serguei are not stupid but both continually seem to ignore the explanations and endlessly repeat the same simplistic observations.
Angry posts from those standing to be inconvenienced at personal cost I can understand and sympathise with but the aforementioned puzzle me.
Angry posts from those standing to be inconvenienced at personal cost I can understand and sympathise with but the aforementioned puzzle me.
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How bizarre that this thread is attracting so many posters 'apparently' new to pprune, and who post on no other subjects!!!
Anyone who doesn't understand why this is happening, has got to be just as cretinous as those to whom I refer!
I urge my colleagues to leave this portion of cyberspace to others, until this dispute is resolved to our satisfaction.
peterowensfanclub:
Thank you for your support, and for your valuable insight into the true nature of this 'BA' venture!
Anyone who doesn't understand why this is happening, has got to be just as cretinous as those to whom I refer!
I urge my colleagues to leave this portion of cyberspace to others, until this dispute is resolved to our satisfaction.
peterowensfanclub:
Thank you for your support, and for your valuable insight into the true nature of this 'BA' venture!
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Now, how would you feel if you had been working happily in your job for some time and then the company decided to start bringing in agency workers because they were cheaper?
I ask again, what's magically special about BA pilots that they alone should be immune from it?
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Once again because I choose to argue against your points I am described as cretinous. I hope your union reps are a little more eloquent when they go to conciliation.
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Once again because I choose to argue against your points I am described as cretinous.
The pilots will either win this argument, or they will not. Your input however, is irrelevant.