BA Pilot Ballot results

[overstress]

if they fly in and out of the UK

That, packamack, is a very big if. I assume you are familiar with QANTAS/Jetstar?

But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now, look up the expression "Pyrrhic Victory."

No need to patronise, old not bold, some of us BA types went to school once! We are aware of what we are doing. It is management who will be enjoying the fruits of a Pyrrhic Victory.

Dysag: Ask yourself would the 'future travelling public' prefer to have their aircraft flown by the lowest bidder?

[pacamack]

As I understand it OS are offering a market competitive package, it is just lower than that offered by BA mainline to its pilots. I think it's a little much to start making the OS candidates look like cheap labour!

[Hand Solo]

Remind me of the starting pay for FOs at Open Skies and the expected annual flying hours. Did we mention their right to change your home base at their leisure? What about the cost of positioning to and from the allocated EU base of choice of this UK registered airline?

[overstress]

As I understand it OS are offering a market competitive package

I expect that you understand it quite well, so do the BA pilots, who consider that you (I assume you are BA mgt or pseudo-mgt) are attempting a double-breasted airline operation by stealth.

Why not adopt the United/Ted model and include some of your most loyal workforce at the planning stage?

[pacamack]

Why do I have to be BA management to disagree with your position?

[M.Mouse]

But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now.........

You are right BA is a basket case, been losing money for years. Hopeless.

[Hand Solo]

pacamack - you don't have to be BA management, however you do use the same slippery arguments they do and you start from the identical standpoint that management are fundamentally trustworthy, would never break an agreement and there really isn't anything to worry about. Perhaps you aren't management, but it does seem a strange coincidence that you share their view of themselves.

[Vino Collapso]

If the OS T & C are crap, underpaid and overworked then pilots will not apply for the jobs.

If the jobs are filled then the pilot market can stand these T & C and those who currently work on better conditions are in a priviliged position.

Straight commercial drive will eventually force everyones T & C down to a common level until another operator is brave enough to break the circle and up the stakes by offering a better set of conditions.

Pilots then migrate to the company with the better T & C.

It has been happening in industry for ever. Nothing new.

Trying to stop it happening is like standing in the middle of M25 with your hand up trying to stop the traffic.

[Hand Solo]

Of course the major flaw in that argument is that pilots tend to be bound by seniority systems across the industry which makes it extremely difficult to migrate to another operator unless you are prepared to commit to them for 10+ years.

[overstress]

vino collapso: perhaps a tad too much of the liquid named in your 'handle'?

The industry has plenty of examples where BALPA's desired outcome has taken place.

The effect of the commercial drive you refer to is to increase the number of aircraft hulls across the world beyond the point where management can recruit pilots to crew them.

[overstress]

Packamack:

Why do I have to be BA management to disagree with your position?

You don't, but there are 60,000+ pilots across the world supporting us and a few BA managers masquerading as indignant pax on PPRuNe opposing us!

[BA FAIR MANAGER]

Overstress - It seems to be a dark and lonely place that you hail from my friend. I apologise if this seems derogatory, it is genuinely not my intent, but I really hope there is sunshine and laughter elsewhere in your life.

It's cut the c*ap time again - Airline's need Managers as much as they do all other disciplines. Not all Management teams are in the act of scre*ing their employees. Equally though - I would feel very sorry for ANY Manager, BA or otherwise, who would feel they needed to impersonate being a customer to attempt to seek reason and compassion from anyone on this forum.

More "no nonsense" facts coupled with sound and reasoned debate would be nice to see...

[overstress]

Thank you for your concern, BA FAIR MANAGER, but where I am the sun shines every day and I am not at all lonely, 86% of my colleagues have gone on record to express the same view as me.

Furthermore, I have the backing of tens of thousands of other pilots across the globe.

The "Chief Pilot" of this forum has exposed BA MANAGERS making multiple postings using different personae - I would suggest that for an individual to descend to those depths, it is in fact they who are lonely.

You like "no nonsense" facts: in that case I refer again to the example of United/Ted. In that company, they believe in consultation of their key employees. You could do well to recommend the same approach to your colleagues.

PS: why do people use the phrase "my friend" when it's obvious they're nothing of the kind?

[Pontius]

Airline's need Managers

I think, for once, we may have found the genuine article. Only a BA manager could punctuate and mis-use capital letters so badly.

[Serguei]

Next time you fly on holiday (or perhaps in a few years time), why not go and look into the eyes of the pilots (many with children) at the controls who just realised that their terms and conditions had been eroded by about 30%.

If the condition changed sue the employer (if they have broken the contract) or find another job (if the contract is not broken). This is what those people do who don't have holidaymakers to hold hostage.

If one can't find a job with the conditions one wants, may be this is exactly how much one is worth and the pay is fair? If the employer was worries that he can't find anybody to fill the position the conditions would improve instead of been eroded.

[overstress]

No, Serguei, if the conditions change, re-negotiate the agreement.

Don't dictate to us, it makes you sound like my employer!

[Swedish Steve]

I have been following this thread with interest because I work for BA Engineering and would like BA to keep flying, there is an outside chance of a bonus this year!

I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?

[lordsummerisle]

"Of course the major flaw in that argument is that pilots tend to be bound by seniority systems across the industry which makes it extremely difficult to migrate to another operator unless you are prepared to commit to them for 10+ years."

Been reading this thread from the start, and understood that it wasn't about T's and C's, that is already agreed with Balpa This dispute is more about forcing BA to put Open Skies pilots onto the BA senority list from what i understand?

Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?

[pacamack]

lordsummerisle

An excellent point. Surely seniority systems distort the market by making it more dificult for pilots to shop around for the best T&Cs. If carriers effectively have thier pilots "locked in" then where is the incentive for them to raise T&Cs. The very system you BA Pilots are fighting to protect must be depressing T&Cs across the industry?

[M.Mouse]

I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?

It is interesting why any pilot would like to be a manager. Generally our technical and training pilot managers are well respected. Others are master politicians climbing the greasy pole speaking and behaving as politicians do i.e. spouting the party line no matter what. The OpenLies propaganda blitz is a case in point.

Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?

Like unilateral nuclear disarmament the odd company or two binning the seniority system doesn't work. For good or bad it is the system in use worldwide and has advantages as well as disadvantages.