BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat
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I, like so many others I know, will only fly BA if nothing else is available. The arrogance of so many of the cabin crew and the third rate 'service' is just not acceptable. Try the far eastern airlines if you want to see how it should be done. This strike will only damage BA's reputation further, who will risk booking with them when you cannot be sure that they will bother?
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So you believe that Virgin are not a directly comparable airline?
Take a look at it from an operational standpoint, fleet mix, crewing levels, airline alliances, inflight service, short and long haul etc....Then look at the differences in management structure, its ethos, vision, and history.
About the only thing that V/S have in common with BA is that they are UK based, have strong BALPA membership, and both operate the -400.
Now M Mouse YOU tell me are they comparable?
As with all these sort of situations if one is honest about sickness there will not be a problem.
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So do BA have an issue with sickness? It appears that they do (if people are talking in terms of 10 days sick/year) and are therefore dealing with it. As with all these sort of situations if one is honest about sickness there will not be a problem. However BA are still culturally stuck in the old nationalised mold ('change' NOOOO!!!) hence the strikes. A little like the last strike they had in 2005, no-one had any patience with that one either.
If BA go on strike then surely the union have failed in their objective. (oo unless the union objective is to flex their muscles and cause trouble).
If BA go on strike then surely the union have failed in their objective. (oo unless the union objective is to flex their muscles and cause trouble).
The only problem, and cc have my sympathy here, is that ground staff can go to work with a sniffle, cabin crew can't. The process is designed to manage sickenss and eradicate skiving. Am I naiive in thinking that loss of earning through lost expenses should have the same effect?
Are cc permitted to do roster swaps with each other as a means of getting more flexible time off?
How many cc have been terminated through EG300?
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Sorry, but Virgin and BA are privately owned UK airlines competing for the same passengers, using identical aeroplanes on identical routes based out of the same airports to the same destinations. That's not comparable? The really frightening comparison takes place between BA shorthaul/mediumhaul and the rest of the UK independant industry. Some of the industrial agreements make your jaw drop with disbelief. But it's not for us to argue here- it will be fascinating to see how much WW picks up the gauntlet and whether he uses the strike call as a means to break the union.
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Is this all a case of brinkmanship?
As SLF with just about every airline in the world (except Alitalia) I know how much grief there will be for travellers who may have their trips cancelled, postponed or delayed. I can assure all BA CC that any sympathy and support from the public will very quickly evaporate! Also to the "management," again do not forget who really calls the shots, the customers, not the bankers and investors.
This path of brinkmanship is really a no win situation for all involved!
For senior union reps and management who lurk in these pages, think out of the box, be creative, both sides move your current positions. This is a simple plea from a SLF who has seen combative labour issues destroy too many companies just for the bragging rights of who won!!
End of mild rant.
This path of brinkmanship is really a no win situation for all involved!
For senior union reps and management who lurk in these pages, think out of the box, be creative, both sides move your current positions. This is a simple plea from a SLF who has seen combative labour issues destroy too many companies just for the bragging rights of who won!!
End of mild rant.
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Rainboe, so are RYR, Easy, MON, TFly, etc etc.......
They are all competing for the same pax, flying from the same airport, to the same or very similar destinations, so why not expand the comparison to all operators? they do after all fly aeroplanes don't they?
There is no direct comparison, simply because each airline is essentially unique, the argument could be made along the lines of similarity, but nothing more.
It is disingenuous to suggest VS and BA bear a direct comparison, I'd be willing to bet that WW and RB would agree with me, as would their respective marketing departments.
Rainboe..it seems we are in agreement at least in part
They are all competing for the same pax, flying from the same airport, to the same or very similar destinations, so why not expand the comparison to all operators? they do after all fly aeroplanes don't they?
There is no direct comparison, simply because each airline is essentially unique, the argument could be made along the lines of similarity, but nothing more.
It is disingenuous to suggest VS and BA bear a direct comparison, I'd be willing to bet that WW and RB would agree with me, as would their respective marketing departments.
Rainboe..it seems we are in agreement at least in part
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Can someone help me out here and explain exactly what the BA CC are not happy with, i got the bit about EG300 but thats life and how many BA employees have been sacked since it was introduced - Zero, if your sick dont work simple.
So what are the other issues?
M Mouse Quote "I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a."
I think your having a laugh there !
So what are the other issues?
M Mouse Quote "I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a."
I think your having a laugh there !
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Can someone help me out here and explain exactly what the BA CC are not happy with, i got the bit about EG300 but thats life and how many BA employees have been sacked since it was introduced - Zero, if your sick dont work simple.
So what are the other issues?
M Mouse Quote "I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a."
I think your having a laugh there !
So what are the other issues?
M Mouse Quote "I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a."
I think your having a laugh there !
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Actually RIMMER...5 have been sacked as a result of EG300.
Ba also want to reduce our conditions....they are there for a reason and we deserve the right to fight for them to be maintained.
We are not looking for anything new or any improvements other then the change in EG300 to more reflect the conditions we work in!
And to all of you who are moaning about bitchy crew and poor onboard service, well yes there are the few (and I mean few) who need an attitude readjustment but for the rest of us, we are only working with the tools we are given which these days is less and less. We are now fighting against the management not just for our own benefit but for yours too!
And lets not forget those like myself who are on the New Contract who earn significantly less than those crew you all complain about who are overpaid....they are now the minority, we are the majority and we are barely paid enough to get by!
Ba also want to reduce our conditions....they are there for a reason and we deserve the right to fight for them to be maintained.
We are not looking for anything new or any improvements other then the change in EG300 to more reflect the conditions we work in!
And to all of you who are moaning about bitchy crew and poor onboard service, well yes there are the few (and I mean few) who need an attitude readjustment but for the rest of us, we are only working with the tools we are given which these days is less and less. We are now fighting against the management not just for our own benefit but for yours too!
And lets not forget those like myself who are on the New Contract who earn significantly less than those crew you all complain about who are overpaid....they are now the minority, we are the majority and we are barely paid enough to get by!
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Just ask your average punter who is not a card holder what they think and how they choose. They choose 95% on price and the rest on schedule. They do not choose on the BA brand over the Virgin brand, and if they did, I suspect the young (and potential industry leaders of the future) would choose the funky Virgin image over the staid BA image.
BA and VS choose their respective marketing targets carefully.
The whole of BA needs to be very aware of where their bread is buttered and be very careful about not upsetting the goose that lays the golden egg. There is no right of passage in the future based on past performance. Over the past few years, several groups in BA (including silo-modelled management) have lost sight of this basic fact - the cabin crew are just the latest group living in cloud-cuckoo land.
If you have any doubt, go seek out an employee from Sabena, the old Swissair, Eastern, Pan Am, etc.
I speak as a BA 747 Captain.
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Paddy,
Let's not kid ourselves here, even as new crew on Longhaul with 5 years service and working a 100% contract, your average take home pay is usually between £2200-2800 pcm. That equates to an headline wage before tax equivalent to £35,000 pa in the UK as a junior cabin crew member.
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Sorry topbunk but the pilots are far more in cloud cuckoo land then the cabin crew!!! Just have a look at the great contradiction known as the "ba pilots to strike" thread!
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Paddy,
Let's not kid ourselves here, even as new crew on Longhaul with 5 years service and working a 100% contract, your average take home pay is usually between £2200-2800 pcm. That equates to an headline wage before tax equivalent to £35,000 pa in the UK as a junior cabin crew member.
Let's not kid ourselves here, even as new crew on Longhaul with 5 years service and working a 100% contract, your average take home pay is usually between £2200-2800 pcm. That equates to an headline wage before tax equivalent to £35,000 pa in the UK as a junior cabin crew member.
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AP
I think you will find the 5 that have been sacked are for gross miss conduct, we had 2 in Engineering running businesses while sick, i would imagine there are similar examples for Cabin Crew, let me restate my comment then - how many people have been dismissed from BA under EG300 for being sick - Zero.
There must be more to this than EG300? i have been involved with EG300 and while i concur it does need tidying up it also has fixed hard and fast rules for support of employees with physical or mental problems, something that was never defined before its introduction ( left to your line manager ).
I agree with you the new contract rates are rubbish, that isn't part of this dispute though as far as i knew, i would imagine if the big earners are now the minority the way to go is for Bassa to offer BA something in exchange for a review ( longhaul / shorthaul integration maybe )?
Maybe you should ask for expenses to be incorperated?
So what is BA trying to change that you have written down as a union agreement?
I think you will find the 5 that have been sacked are for gross miss conduct, we had 2 in Engineering running businesses while sick, i would imagine there are similar examples for Cabin Crew, let me restate my comment then - how many people have been dismissed from BA under EG300 for being sick - Zero.
There must be more to this than EG300? i have been involved with EG300 and while i concur it does need tidying up it also has fixed hard and fast rules for support of employees with physical or mental problems, something that was never defined before its introduction ( left to your line manager ).
I agree with you the new contract rates are rubbish, that isn't part of this dispute though as far as i knew, i would imagine if the big earners are now the minority the way to go is for Bassa to offer BA something in exchange for a review ( longhaul / shorthaul integration maybe )?
Maybe you should ask for expenses to be incorperated?
So what is BA trying to change that you have written down as a union agreement?
the lunatic fringe
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It disappoints me that for months now my flight crew colleagues have been asking me "so what are you guys doing about the pension, are you going to support us?" As soon as a deal is acceptable to BALPA, the crew start moaning about how could other people be so inconsiderate to threaten strike action and endanger all our jobs. Somewhat hypocritical. BALPA members within BA have very good terms and conditions because the union and its members have been prepared to threaten to defend them, with a strong united union. When another group of staff customer service group on less than 12000 a year or cabin crew have the balls to defend their terms and conditions you criticize them. Fair play to the crew if they pull it off, but I suspect it may backfire on them. The company has grown wise to strike action and the benefits of such action has dwindled. As recent experiences have proved. BA will not be endangered and neither will our jobs. Those that strike will run the risk of just losing out on lost wages for not working and possibly returning on new contracts. But it is a gamble they think is worth taking and I hope it works them. If any of you were in their position you would agree to defend your terms and conditions too.
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PAULW
Help me out here though, in engineering we are not happy with the pension but thats a seperate issue and who knows we might follow your lead with it, however what Agreements do you have that BA is breeching?
EG300 was signed up for you and us a while back, i am not happy about it but its a done deal, so what else are we talking about?
Sorry but i really dont see it and i would like too.
Help me out here though, in engineering we are not happy with the pension but thats a seperate issue and who knows we might follow your lead with it, however what Agreements do you have that BA is breeching?
EG300 was signed up for you and us a while back, i am not happy about it but its a done deal, so what else are we talking about?
Sorry but i really dont see it and i would like too.
I do not know what the pay and general conditions for BA cabin crew actually are and Im sure that they have some valid grievances - however, I do know this much having travelled as a passenger with BA on a wide variety of routes and also with low-cost and charter airlines. The hardest working cabin crews I have ever seen are those employed by UK holiday charter airlines - without question. The slackest are those utilised by some, repeat some, low cost carriers. BA seem to fall somewhere in the middle where passenger service varies between the exceptional to the indifferent.
As far as 'sickness' is concerned - all airlines seem to suffer from the same problem. They preach the fact that crews should never operate when unwell but at the same time seem to keep a running score as to those who get more 'colds' than others. It can go to the extreme - I have known crew being summoned into their managers office to explain their abscences when they have had major surgery ! Yes, we all know that some tend to go sick for the weekend - it happens throughout the industry and beyond - this should not condone however the bullying attitude that some cabin crew managers try and take towards their staff.
I would imagine that most non-BA cabin crew in the UK would look at their colleagues in BA with envy - justified, you tell me ?
As far as 'sickness' is concerned - all airlines seem to suffer from the same problem. They preach the fact that crews should never operate when unwell but at the same time seem to keep a running score as to those who get more 'colds' than others. It can go to the extreme - I have known crew being summoned into their managers office to explain their abscences when they have had major surgery ! Yes, we all know that some tend to go sick for the weekend - it happens throughout the industry and beyond - this should not condone however the bullying attitude that some cabin crew managers try and take towards their staff.
I would imagine that most non-BA cabin crew in the UK would look at their colleagues in BA with envy - justified, you tell me ?
Junior trash
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There is a slight difference between having to work an extra 10 years for same pension and having to attend a meeting when you are sick. Its about degrees. BA flight crew have modernised virtually all agreements and fly as many or more hours than our competitors, I can think of only 1 or 2agreements that wouldnt stand up to outside experienced scrutiny. The cabin crew have failed to even think about modernising and have been brought to a frenzy for a load of silly little niggles that they can never win on. (Though i understand the BASSA have recruited the Iraqi information minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf to claim glorious victory whatever happens)
The tragedy is when these idiots who currently run BA do actually come after something important the crew will have no stomach for further action.
The tragedy is when these idiots who currently run BA do actually come after something important the crew will have no stomach for further action.
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Solidarity
Well said Paul W. You hit a nail on the head there. I have witnessed CCs try to rally others to a cause to no avail. They may choose to look after number 1 - which with pilots (I am one) is what normally happens - but they weaken all their colleagues in the process & vice versa.
The only winners are the corporate managers who seldom seem to suffer similar T&C problems oddly enough. Do you think their FS pension schemes are under threat for example?
There will always be those who extract the Michael out of any system - sickness for ex - but there are usually reasons. Like fatigue or feeling used.
Those who say things like "You'll lose you Staff Travel" OR "Look out for your jobs" are either management stooges or naive. You choose.
The only winners are the corporate managers who seldom seem to suffer similar T&C problems oddly enough. Do you think their FS pension schemes are under threat for example?
There will always be those who extract the Michael out of any system - sickness for ex - but there are usually reasons. Like fatigue or feeling used.
Those who say things like "You'll lose you Staff Travel" OR "Look out for your jobs" are either management stooges or naive. You choose.