BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat

[Rimmer]

PaulW
Rimmer ( no relation ) has gone now and time moves on - we voted him out.
No it hasn't taken me 10 years to get my A License but the without types and 8 type ratings actually took me 16 years ( and i don't mean 8 authorisations )!
Quote " Certainly licensed carpet fitters as you call them isn't anything to be proud of. Frankly Ill be surprised if you work on the shop floor, with your last post."
Well be surprised then and no its not anything to be proud of at all ( its estimated 20% got through with forged books, frankly BA should be ashamed but i see all the instigators of it have now left.
Quote "Yes the unions strength is its members but the members are tired of having the rug pulled from under them anytime they try and stand united by their own union who frankly enjoys the status quo of not having to do much."
Oh is that right, if you hate the union so much why don't you actually do something about it? some of us are trying but while there's constant remarks to the past and comments like yours its going nowhere, maybe you should show us the way. Ken Hayhow retires soon and nobody wants the job, maybe you would like to do it and lead us forward? dont forget are loads of perks like .....................""" None """ ....................... and its a load of stress dealing with engineers who moan, have never been out the gate in their lives and probably never will.
My MAIN point of coming here today and its still one i haven't had resolved is to know what in slightly more than vague issues the cabin crews gripes are?, all i have found out so far is they aren't happy with EG300, i cannot believe that is the reason for the strike ballot, i haven't come here to knock them at all i just want details of what BA are planning to change with their T + Cs and any agreements the company will breech.
Get Smart
As to can you be sacked - Ask the Gate Gourmet guys next time your out, they can but its difficult for them and they usually have to sack the lot, i would very much doubt BA would do that unless its an all out strike, when you get to that point its S**t or bust anyway - been there.

[PAXboy]

CFC

Whatever the Cabin Crew are currently paid and whatever T&C's they work to is totally irrelevant - the whole point of the propsed strike action is their reaction to the bully boy tactics and lies that BA have used over the last few years to change the above, which have now brought them to this very important decision.

I find it hard to believe that any readers of this post would not like to react in the same way if they were in the same position with their management.

"would like to react"? Yes, but to actually go on strike? No. Why, because the UK is such a different place and the CC might have done well to have read all of the Pilot Strike thread, since the problem of mgmt's willingness to enter into a strike was discussed. BA might have lied and used bully boy tactics - and may well do so again but they will win. That is not being defeatist, it is being practical.

[twisted-diamonddolly]

Am sick of all these jealous crew talking about the real world outside of BA. Most of us have worked for crap airlines before joining BA (myself included) so we KNOW what other airlines are like thats why we are fighting so hard.
There seem to be lots of people posting on here who have NO IDEA of our terms and conditions or the reality of our pay scales plus a few BITTER PILOTS who wish their union was as strong and as good as BASSA.
I was never so proud to be BA crew as I was at yesterdays meeting. I refuse to give up anything just because its in a business plan. I intend to fly for BA till I retire. Can all my senior management say they will be here for 20 more years? I doubt it.
I am happy to work with my management to improve efficiency but I will not accept macho management.

( rant over but this thread wound me up. I am not anti FD and am not on the old contract)

[Litebulbs]

I was doing a wiki search a few nights ago and followed a few links and ended up at British Caledonian. I'm 3rd generation BCal and after reading the wiki entry I am proud that I am. Do you know, that through the hard times of the 70's and early 80's, they did not loose one day to industrial action. Right up until the end, they turned a respectable profit and had some of the highest paid employees in the business. Oil, Africa and a few dodgy tricks by flag carriers killed them off, but that is the free market. You can pay your staff well and return a profit. You can be a flexible employee and add to that profit.

It comes down to respect. Neither side at BA respect each other. The impression I get from Virgin, is that they do. Why is that? Is it because Mr Branson has fought for his airline for 20 years and kept them going; well grown them into a market leading airline? I would say yes! The possibilities for BA are endless. It should be a win win. Both pilots and cabin crew are paid at least market rate and a fair percentage are paid market leading wages. BA is a massive company witha great route network. It still does carry the flag for everything that is British and should exploit that.

Neither side in this problem are winning the hearts of the people. What may happen from this, is that a cash rich, OIL rich nation may pop in and aquire all that is British Airways and it will all be over. In 20 years time another Ppruner could be typing an answer to a thread, but not sayin that they were proud to be a 3rd generation BA employee, you know, that company that is now owned by Emirates!

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by Litebulbs

What may happen from this, is that a cash rich, OIL rich nation may pop in and aquire all that is British Airways and it will all be over.

It would be if they tried to buy all that is BA as it would cease to be UK owned and lose all bilateral rights, especially to the USA. Not much point in buying much more than 49%.

[openfly]

As an outsider now, I watched the Tand G union CC reaction with amazement.
Their joy will soon fade to anger when they realise that the T and G have stupidly led them into exactly the situation that Walsh wants...namely... a showdown. The city and investors know that he will win and reduce costs. He will shut BA down until he gets what he wants...after all, he has history and has done it before.
Maybe this is why the other cabin crew union is being sensible and sitting quietly on the sidelines.
The only losers will be the T and G union cabin crew.

[bermudatriangle]

Openfly,your assumption that willie walsh will "SHUT BA DOWN" until he gets what he wants is misguided.have you any comprehension of the cost of that course of action ? any savings from changes to cc pay and conditions would take an eternity to recoup.cost savings isn't the main issue in this dispute,it's all about who is in charge.the ego of the ceo is the driving force behind this unecessary dispute and i am afraid if he is allowed to carry on unchecked,he will devastate this airline.hope the board realise what a loose cannon they have appointed and reel him in rapidly,before it is too late.

[CaptJ]

Openfly is correct. If BA goes not get itself into shape and soon it will die the death of a thousand cuts.
Don't think for a second either that BA is immune to a takeover. The present share price reflects the markets belief that this is likely to happen.

[Megaton]

Just waved goodbye to the cc after another 1-2-1 three day tour.....not that it happens very often, you understand

plus a few BITTER PILOTS who wish their union was as strong and as good as BASSA

I think it's the other way round. I've seen the information being put out by BASSA claiming that BALPA have done a deal which disadvantages the CC. So who's jealous of who?

[Joetom]

EG300 was a good trick that cost loads of money to get in, now the Managers who don't know their leg from their elbo can pull it out of the bag and shoot it off at staff who have health issues, EG300 only came to life because many Managers inside the company are not very good dealing at with people, let alone staff under them.
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Just for info, Cockpit gets nice clean air, Cabin gets old dirty air, that's why CC get more sickness, of course Cabin could get nice clean air, but that would cost money.
.
The pilots appear very eager for CC not to strike and get their (the pilots) pension deal set in stone, can this all be down to the new cockpit doors on all aircraft, or more a case of "I'm all right jack, pull the ladder up"
.
Dixons advise many Video Cams have been returned this morning, appears Manager's shouted EG300 many times at them, but they did not work, Dixons staff told them about the ON and OFF button, but Manager's could not understand, working party about to be set up to understand the terms of ON and OFF...

[Fargoo]

I'm an engineer with BA and wish the union members involved all the best. Brave move to vote for strike action these days as history shows no-one really wins. Sad it has come to this but also refreshing that apathy hasn't won out this time.
To all the other posters on here whining about different groups within the airline getting different benefits - boo hoo. Look to yourself and ask what action personally you have taken to improve your T+C's?
Fargoo

[Final 3 Greens]

As a FQTV I don't have a view to the right and wrongs of the dispute, but I do know that I will not be flying BA for the time being.

Add the particularly onerus restrictions on hand baggage in the UK to this action and the wide choice of alternative carriers and there is one clear message for ALL involved in this dispute.

Welcome to the world of Lemmings.

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by bermudatriangle

Openfly,your assumption that willie walsh will "SHUT BA DOWN" until he gets what he wants is misguided.have you any comprehension of the cost of that course of action ? any savings from changes to cc pay and conditions would take an eternity to recoup.

That doesn't really matter. The city, the shareholders and indeed any future investors in BA will primarily be interested in the longer term viability of the airline. Losses from any strike action can be dismissed as a one off in accounting terms, but improvements in earnings will be seen as permanent.

[reverse thruster]

ham phisted

my eurofleet roster for jan = 42 sectors this is average
my take home will be for jan, £1500
my rolling flight hours for the year, over 800
the number of times i was given a non op from available in december, 6
the number of times i tried to get those availables filled so i could earn a living wage, countless
your attitude, priceless!

1-2-1 is the excpetion, not the norm

[CEJM]

Originally Posted by Joetom

Cabin gets old dirty air, that's why CC get more sickness.

Joetom, you are halfway there. However do you care to explain why we see a marked increase in CC sickness when the weather forecast is good for a weekend?? Or when there are other major events as named earlier in this thread?

You might not be one of them but unfortunately some of your peers call in sick for the above mentioned reasons. If this wouldn't happen, you would have a very stable trend of sickness without the peakes which occur with nice weather major events.

And one last thing. To be cheerfull that you voted for strike action against the company that fed and watered you for the last xx years? Forget any public support after that show.

Wish you al the best. You will need it.

CEJM

[yachtno1]

Final 3 Greens the baggage restrictions and searches are the same for airport staff as well as passangers!

[FIMbar the Furious]

Originally Posted by apaddyinuk

Again WRONG WRONG WRONG....My average take home pay (and I have been longhaul for over 3 years) is between 1400 and 1700....My housemate is Virgin crew and sometimes gets more than me! Dont be fooled.

That works out to between UK17000 and 20000 per year in your hand which is not bad to me for a semi skilled position. If its not to your liking YOU do something about it by getting more qualified and finding a higher paid job or go to Virgin.

No one owes you a living in this world its up to you to make your own way.

I have personally experienced very high levels of service from BA staff but also very low, and the low seems to be becoming the standard these days. I have heard about the galley talk being reffered to as galley FM, fine we all need to let off steam about our jobs some times but dont broadcast it to the customers who pay your wages.

I still regularly recieve high levels of service from other airlines

The only losers in this strike wil be BA staff, Willie will just advertise for more cabin crew who can be trained in 6 weeks I understand, and hand pick the senior ones BA wants for the required number of senior crew.

[Ancient Observer]

Sickness Absence Facts

Earlier in this thread, someone asked for sickness absence facts.
Here they are, in terms of average days lost per annum.:
UK private sector white collar worker:- 4 days
UK private sector, all workers :- 5.5 days
UK all, (including public sector) :- 8 days
BA Cabin crew :- 16 days

Working time is also worth researching. By my googling, BA CC work half the number of hours compared to a UK teacher. Teachers work less than the UK average.

As one of the self-loading freight, I'm not convinced that BA CC will get public support for a strike.

[Barprop]

What became of objectivity?

Whilst most posters on this thread vigorously defend, in many cases quite badly, their opposing corner's, there seems to be one common theme on both sides - an apparent utter lack of objectivity which runs so deep as to amount to complete blindness to many of the realities. Realities Heliport asked at but haven't yet been forthcoming. Some seem to have lost the ability to see the wood for the trees, and it's painfully obvious to witness here.

Another thing I see and must comment on is the obvious ambiguity which undermines many of the arguments set forth by BA CC members, as follows -

First off, all in the industry must be aware, but none from within BA CC seem willng to acknowledge, that there's a culture of (imagined) secrecy amongst BA CC with regard to their renumeration. It's almost as if the fact that, perhaps, the package is better than that available with most other UK carriers is some guilty secret and must not be discussed in case it compromises that package should the powers that be have their attention drawn to any possible disparity. Well, why? If there is disparity, those powers know it. They write the cheques. An example for those who would deny this or who don't know what I mean - see here and you'l quickly get the gist.

Then, in some perversely distorted contradiction of the above, we have those who say, and have used as a defence in this thread, that BA renumeration is directly comparable with other carriers.

Which is it? I don't want an answer. I'm asking you, with honesty, to ask yourself. Doing so, forming an opinion you believe in, and having the courage of your convictions to stand by and air your personal beliefs may lend some, mostly currently lacking, weight to arguments.

Anyway, objectively, surely, for there to be such contention over the matter, there is an issue of some kind. Why else would BA CC pay be such a hot and controversial topic. So you decide... Overpaid and underworked and trying to hide the fact. Or overworked and underpaid and trying to hide the fact? Or is it neither, and the whole thing's a needless drama? The latter seems unlikely given the energy some expend on voicing their opinion, so it comes down to a simple choice from two basic standpoints.

Now, before the 'Even if we are paid more, why should we compromise it?' section of the audience attack me, I'm not saying you are or you should. I believe people should seek to do the bet they can for themselves. In employment, that means being as well rewarded as possible. Of those in the 'We do about the same as anyone else' section, all I ask you to ask yourself is why the 'hush hush' attitude, be it from yourselves or your colleagues, if things are balanced? This widely recognised attitude has never done you any favours, and is most likely to be even more damaging at a time such as this. An open, honest approach stands up strongest.

Next, look at past form. Anyone who knows the industry might wonder if perhaps EG300 isn't partly the result of past, unofficial, trends of CC going sick in reaction to previous moves to erode contract conditions. Such moves, again no secret, may have seemed all well and good to those who employed them at the time, but, inevitably, any action has an opposing reaction. In this case, EG300 may be it. CC sick time is likely to be high for some, not all, of the reasons mentioned in previous post, that I agree with. Perhaps some additional sickness could have been stress related due to increased workloads, fair enough. But to take it to a point where it's almost being used as a lever? Well, that's a dangerous game. Perhaps there's a small minority whose earlier actions have brought you under scrutiny for their parts in such a game.

So far, it may sound as if I'm chipping away, perhaps even attacking. I'm not. I'm asking you to consider how the ethics mentioned above, which you can deny the existence of if you choose, but I can't stop you kidding yourselves if that's your want, appear to others. Really, ask yourselves. It would tend to seem to most outsiders that thare is indeed some issue, of whatever nature and in whatever direction, but, without doubt, an issue. Maybe, in part, even self-inflicted. Not good for garnering support.

I'll leave it there for now, as I'm sure that's enough unintended yet potential contention for one post. Rest assured, being contentious wasn't my intention. It is in fact to encourage some who seem blind to just how disjointed the thinking behind their pitch appears and how transparent the smokescreen is to those on the outside who can be disspassionate about the subject. Perhaps, taking a breath, and stock, might be an idea. That way, you may lend more weight to your arguments by making them more balanced, less emotionally charged, objective.

As already said elsewhere, strike action is a brave move in this market. For having the courage to stand by that conviction alone, I wish you all well, although I suspect that I can't maintain support for a cause in which so often the protagonists appear less than willing to be honest about the issues behind the issues even with themselves. The appearance it gives off of contradiction, attitudes of pseduo-secrecy and ill informed comment will undermine even the best argument, in this case one on which a good deal rides. Please bear that in mind, and also that my viewpoint is common amongst those who are currently on the fence between support and turning away.

[Final 3 Greens]

Final 3 Greens the baggage restrictions and searches are the same for airport staff as well as passangers!

Yacht1, you misunderstand me.

If I connect from home via ZRH, I can take 2 pcs (in C)
If I connect via LHR, I can take only 1, increasing the possibility of lost or delayed baggage.

I must take my PC with me, therefore a LHR connection requires checking my suitcase in, so if you were me, what would you do - connect via LHR or ZRH - all things being equal, ZRH is better.

The other factor is schedule convenience, so if LHR offers more connections I might take the risk of delayed baggage, but if BA adds the risk of disruption, then that skews the decision.

There are 000s of FQTVs out there who travel heavily and weigh up these kind of odds all the time.
Perhaps now you understand my point.