Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots)
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I've been there as well, lost the family, done all the silly stuff. Given myself all the good reasons and excuses as to why I needed to drink etc I don't now and haven't for several years. I'm only putting in my two cents worth so anyone who is in grip or cycle of alcohol use (or any other addiction for that matter), can hear it from yet one more person. You can get past it but you will need help. It is not something to treat lightly and I believe it definitely is an illness. I took some convincing of this some years ago (even though a user myself) until a counsellor explained that any serious illness falls into several categories including...life threatening (can cause death, your and others), physically debilitating, requires help to cure, severely effects family and others around you....there was more. I still wasn't totally convinced. However now when I look back on the madness of it and the things I did and how I justified myself to myself..well I need no convincing.
I voluntarily got away from aviation for a while. I had been in it earlier in ATC and later as a pilot for most of my life. I went back to college studying something quite different but a subject I had always had a very strong involvement and interest in anyway. While I don't advocate that as a necessity for myself or anybody else it is the route I chose. I also had an excellent Doctor as well who although not having been an addict herself (and they are usually the best counsellors) was terrific. I also had a great AA group. When I started going to that one I couldn't even keep a cup of coffee half full my shakes were so bad.
You can get out of it. Take responsibility for yourself by asking for and getting help. Make it a project to complete or overcome, one of the steps in life that has been dealt to you. But get help, it is there.
I voluntarily got away from aviation for a while. I had been in it earlier in ATC and later as a pilot for most of my life. I went back to college studying something quite different but a subject I had always had a very strong involvement and interest in anyway. While I don't advocate that as a necessity for myself or anybody else it is the route I chose. I also had an excellent Doctor as well who although not having been an addict herself (and they are usually the best counsellors) was terrific. I also had a great AA group. When I started going to that one I couldn't even keep a cup of coffee half full my shakes were so bad.
You can get out of it. Take responsibility for yourself by asking for and getting help. Make it a project to complete or overcome, one of the steps in life that has been dealt to you. But get help, it is there.
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Drunk Flying
I am new to this site and this is my first post. I am a Private Pilot, got my ticket at 18 in 1976, 40.0 hrs, not that I was that good, but unique- 40.0 hrs? Every pilot I talk to got theirs at 40.1 or 45.1, or 50.1, If anybody got theirs at 40.0, please let me know. OK, drunk flying. I got my training at Ohio University and it was well known as a "party school". I think the Aviation Dept was top notch, and I feel I had the best training. One night, a pilot and friend, met me at one of the many uptown bars. I was well into the evening, he had -0 drinks-. He says "lets go flying". No way, 12hrs from bottle to throttle. He said, "thats why I going to take you up tonight." OK, lets go. I could T/O and fly the C-152 just fine, but when it came to the landing. I was way off, maybe 30' high on the flare (ground fog). My friend saved the day and took over the controls (that is why we went up). I was embarrased. I have had some bad landings, but that would have been the worst. I learned that night, drinking and flying don't mix well. We tied down the plane, and then we had some beers together. He now is a most senior pilot for a major airline. I drink, and I fly, but not at the same time. Should my little 1/2 hr flight be part of our training. I don't think so, but maybe. It changed me. I cannot do both at the same time. I can fly, or I can drink. I do both, but not at the same time. My opinion.
Last edited by swilly300; 13th Mar 2007 at 04:14.
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NikNak
NikNak, if you're that concerned with your kids reading the family emails, why didn't you just change your password? You want us to show simpathy for your family while you showed none for the family of the pilot in question?
Some of you may have noticed that this post was deleted, (by me) then ressurected by the Moderator Heliport.
My reason for deleting was because I recieved a number of abusive emails from sources which I've been unable to identify, directly linked to my original comments.
I had - perhaps rather naievly - put my family email address on my public profile, and the emails were opened by my young children, the nature of the abuse in the messages was, in this modern world, not entirely beyond their understanding and enough to cause them considerable distress.
I know that there are a small minority of mentally challenged individuals on any such forum who partake in such activities, but my kids don't.
In future, at least have the balls to abuse me by PM - then I can find out who you are!
My reason for deleting was because I recieved a number of abusive emails from sources which I've been unable to identify, directly linked to my original comments.
I had - perhaps rather naievly - put my family email address on my public profile, and the emails were opened by my young children, the nature of the abuse in the messages was, in this modern world, not entirely beyond their understanding and enough to cause them considerable distress.
I know that there are a small minority of mentally challenged individuals on any such forum who partake in such activities, but my kids don't.
In future, at least have the balls to abuse me by PM - then I can find out who you are!
Last edited by TheMonk; 17th Mar 2007 at 16:42.
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You say that every kind of belief prevents the understanding of relationship. Yet I believe in a higher power and equally believe that higher power has taken away my obsession with alcohol. Am I therefor to abandon that belief and if so what of my alcoholism. I have not had the desire to drink for eighteen months and I do not want to return to the personal hell that drink took me to so what of my relationship with my higher power? I don't understand your message!
michael744:
You quote one man's non-scientific opinion and accept it as fact. May I suggest you look at some other resources for an alternate (scientific) view of the problem.
Some basic facts about alcohol:
http://www.utexas.edu/research/asrec/alcoholfacts.html
The science of addiction:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/
and another:
http://healthgate.partners.org/brows...of%20Addiction
There are literally hundreds more. I too love Google!
You quote one man's non-scientific opinion and accept it as fact. May I suggest you look at some other resources for an alternate (scientific) view of the problem.
Some basic facts about alcohol:
http://www.utexas.edu/research/asrec/alcoholfacts.html
The science of addiction:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/
and another:
http://healthgate.partners.org/brows...of%20Addiction
There are literally hundreds more. I too love Google!
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Ladies/Gentlemen;
Please remember that this is my own experience and opinion.
I am constantly amazed at the "Science of Alcoholism". I can assure you that after all these years, I can very well remember my last bout with the bottle and my first few days of sobriety.
If somebody had offered me any of the definitions of my problem through scientific explanation or any other means, I would probably be dead by now.
What I was seeking was hope, desperate hope from somebody who would understand me. Deep within myself somewhere, was my own understanding that I was in serious trouble and I couldn't have given a tinkers damn about the reasons why. I had already tried all that and drank my way through it.
What I needed and found was another person who had the same problem as I did and could help me find a way out of it and get the monkey off my back.
I believed the people I met, gingerly at first, as I could relate to them, they seemed to have had the same problems as I was having. Hope was at last there and I could see by the way they were living and the stories they were telling, that they were just like me.
If science were to invent a pill today that would allow me to start drinking again, do you think I would attempt it. Not on your nellie. Living was my problem and I drank to escape it and these people showed me how to live again.
Remember the old adage, "KISS", Keep it simple, stupid!.
For those of you whether it is flight crews, FAs, mechanics, rampies or whatever, and you are experiencing that irrational fear that is driving your every moment, find another person to talk to who may have had the same problem. Even at first, it may not solve your problem but it will spark something inside you that will arise again when needed and may prompt you to get the help you need.
I wish I could crawl into this screen and offer each one of you who may be in trouble, a little bit of what I have. I am in the land of the living again and so happy to be here. My life has all kinds of problems today but they pale in comparison to what I had before the cork went in the bottle.
Best wishes to all,
carholme
Please remember that this is my own experience and opinion.
I am constantly amazed at the "Science of Alcoholism". I can assure you that after all these years, I can very well remember my last bout with the bottle and my first few days of sobriety.
If somebody had offered me any of the definitions of my problem through scientific explanation or any other means, I would probably be dead by now.
What I was seeking was hope, desperate hope from somebody who would understand me. Deep within myself somewhere, was my own understanding that I was in serious trouble and I couldn't have given a tinkers damn about the reasons why. I had already tried all that and drank my way through it.
What I needed and found was another person who had the same problem as I did and could help me find a way out of it and get the monkey off my back.
I believed the people I met, gingerly at first, as I could relate to them, they seemed to have had the same problems as I was having. Hope was at last there and I could see by the way they were living and the stories they were telling, that they were just like me.
If science were to invent a pill today that would allow me to start drinking again, do you think I would attempt it. Not on your nellie. Living was my problem and I drank to escape it and these people showed me how to live again.
Remember the old adage, "KISS", Keep it simple, stupid!.
For those of you whether it is flight crews, FAs, mechanics, rampies or whatever, and you are experiencing that irrational fear that is driving your every moment, find another person to talk to who may have had the same problem. Even at first, it may not solve your problem but it will spark something inside you that will arise again when needed and may prompt you to get the help you need.
I wish I could crawl into this screen and offer each one of you who may be in trouble, a little bit of what I have. I am in the land of the living again and so happy to be here. My life has all kinds of problems today but they pale in comparison to what I had before the cork went in the bottle.
Best wishes to all,
carholme
carholme:
I agree completely. But non-addicts who dismiss addiction as being a character flaw, while ignoring the chemical realities of the brain and addiction, do a great disservice to people like yourself who've been there. I am quite sure that you never "wanted" to be there, or that a weakness of self got you there. The inability to regain control that cries for help and understanding comes from the addiction, not the other way around.
I agree completely. But non-addicts who dismiss addiction as being a character flaw, while ignoring the chemical realities of the brain and addiction, do a great disservice to people like yourself who've been there. I am quite sure that you never "wanted" to be there, or that a weakness of self got you there. The inability to regain control that cries for help and understanding comes from the addiction, not the other way around.
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Michael744
Thank you for your reply and your offer to discuss this off forum. Perhaps my feelings, beliefs and understanding of this topic (if limited) are relevant as I am both a recovering alcoholic and a pilot who flew commercially for some years so for that reason I would be more than happy to discuss any issues 'on' forum in the hope that it might help others.
I know that without the help which I reveived from AA I would never have been able to put down the bottle and I firmly believe that it was a higher power that led me to AA. AA in turn enabled me to not just believe in a higher power but moreover to have faith in that power. I have also learnt that, for some, alcohol sets off a reaction within the body which in turn leads to both an obsession and further craving. When this reaction is strong enough an alcoholic loses control of his power over alcohol and thus begins a decline that for many can only end in death. If a belief in a higher power (and for that some might read God) can relieve anyone of their powerlessness over alcohol then who am I to question their understanding.
I will not bore you with the gory details of where my alcoholism took me but I can assure you that thanks to my Faith and to the love and kindness of AA I need never drink again and therefore need not repeat the harm that I have, in my times of drinking, done to others.
Ollie
Thank you for your reply and your offer to discuss this off forum. Perhaps my feelings, beliefs and understanding of this topic (if limited) are relevant as I am both a recovering alcoholic and a pilot who flew commercially for some years so for that reason I would be more than happy to discuss any issues 'on' forum in the hope that it might help others.
I know that without the help which I reveived from AA I would never have been able to put down the bottle and I firmly believe that it was a higher power that led me to AA. AA in turn enabled me to not just believe in a higher power but moreover to have faith in that power. I have also learnt that, for some, alcohol sets off a reaction within the body which in turn leads to both an obsession and further craving. When this reaction is strong enough an alcoholic loses control of his power over alcohol and thus begins a decline that for many can only end in death. If a belief in a higher power (and for that some might read God) can relieve anyone of their powerlessness over alcohol then who am I to question their understanding.
I will not bore you with the gory details of where my alcoholism took me but I can assure you that thanks to my Faith and to the love and kindness of AA I need never drink again and therefore need not repeat the harm that I have, in my times of drinking, done to others.
Ollie
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I try and have as little input here as possible, but I must address this idea that being an alcholic is a character flaw my thoughts are this.
Having been throught the alcolism nightmare and found my way out of it I am quite happy with being able to deal with my character flaw sober, rather than drunk.
Chuck E.
Having been throught the alcolism nightmare and found my way out of it I am quite happy with being able to deal with my character flaw sober, rather than drunk.
Chuck E.
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There are some amazing posts on this thread, ones that have taken me hand in hand with you to dark places i never wanted to go again, but ones i had to go again.
I was talking to a very famous Psychologist once and asked the proffessor to give me some advice. He said he had been paid his entire life for very little, because the best advice a man will ever get, is the advice he gives to himself, but in order to do that he needs a 'big pair of ears on listen mode' to effect the desired outcome.
I am convinced that this thread has allowed many people that experience, and for many of us, perhaps a moment to reflect on how our own stories are, in a comforting way, so similar to others. We prove here that we are not alone. I read some of the posts and think' that has happened to me, why didn't i have the courage to write it?' Maybe one day.
MODs please never let this stickey be deleted, it is an outlet for many of us and also for some of our finest.
I was talking to a very famous Psychologist once and asked the proffessor to give me some advice. He said he had been paid his entire life for very little, because the best advice a man will ever get, is the advice he gives to himself, but in order to do that he needs a 'big pair of ears on listen mode' to effect the desired outcome.
I am convinced that this thread has allowed many people that experience, and for many of us, perhaps a moment to reflect on how our own stories are, in a comforting way, so similar to others. We prove here that we are not alone. I read some of the posts and think' that has happened to me, why didn't i have the courage to write it?' Maybe one day.
MODs please never let this stickey be deleted, it is an outlet for many of us and also for some of our finest.
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Michael 744;
Sir;
I do not want to get into a discussion with you about the merits of some fancy writings in a book. I am an alcoholic and I can only tell my story but until I was able to admit that I had a problem, I didn't stand a chance for survival. I know I am an alcoholic and for me to mess around with my thinking that maybe I am not is the most dangerous and ludicrous thing I have ever heard. This is like I said before about science and the pill. Do you think if science invented a pill that would relieve me from my problem that I would start to drink again? Not a chance and for me personally, I have to stay away from this long winded,flowery writing of yours.I don't know if you have experienced the effect of alcohol consumption and what it did to people like me but I would be surprized to meet many people that talked themselves out of it. My experience and recovery on a daily basis has shown me that I am an alcoholic and unless I accept that, every waking moment of my life, I and the thinking I am capable of sometimes can risk the sobriety I have enjoyed these years. I for one am happy to have some understanding of my problem and know that I am not smart enough to risk a good thing that saved my life.
carholme
Sir;
I do not want to get into a discussion with you about the merits of some fancy writings in a book. I am an alcoholic and I can only tell my story but until I was able to admit that I had a problem, I didn't stand a chance for survival. I know I am an alcoholic and for me to mess around with my thinking that maybe I am not is the most dangerous and ludicrous thing I have ever heard. This is like I said before about science and the pill. Do you think if science invented a pill that would relieve me from my problem that I would start to drink again? Not a chance and for me personally, I have to stay away from this long winded,flowery writing of yours.I don't know if you have experienced the effect of alcohol consumption and what it did to people like me but I would be surprized to meet many people that talked themselves out of it. My experience and recovery on a daily basis has shown me that I am an alcoholic and unless I accept that, every waking moment of my life, I and the thinking I am capable of sometimes can risk the sobriety I have enjoyed these years. I for one am happy to have some understanding of my problem and know that I am not smart enough to risk a good thing that saved my life.
carholme
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...so back to the topic at hand, anyone know any more about the Danish FO, currently going through the union process after being sacked for his inability to get on with collegues. after asking the FC if he could smell alcohol in the cockpit.....coincidence?? 
Recovery
Mr prouse had an amazing story with an incredible ending.
A shame his First officer and Flight engineer did not receive the same consideration.
Their welfare was his responsibility and he hung them out to dry.
A shame his First officer and Flight engineer did not receive the same consideration.
Their welfare was his responsibility and he hung them out to dry.
I believe the F/O and F/E were adults when that fateful night occurred. Lyle didn't lift the glass to their mouths; they were with him all the way. They simply didn't choose the same path that Lyle did to get back on the line. What he did to put his life right took more courage than you'll ever know.
It would have not taken much more 'courage' for 'lyle' to have had the decen cy to tell the other two pilots BEFORE they took off, 'the morning after'
That a representative of the FAA (unfortunately poorly trained and out of his depth in this scenario) had approached him and warned him not to fly that morning.
His behaviour the night before was stupid, disregarding his crews welfare totally abrogates his responsibilty as a captain.
Solely based on this, I have no respect for the idiot, but contempt for his selfishness and conceit
.
You would think he was the only one in the cockpit.
That a representative of the FAA (unfortunately poorly trained and out of his depth in this scenario) had approached him and warned him not to fly that morning.
His behaviour the night before was stupid, disregarding his crews welfare totally abrogates his responsibilty as a captain.
Solely based on this, I have no respect for the idiot, but contempt for his selfishness and conceit
.
You would think he was the only one in the cockpit.
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"A shame his First officer and Flight engineer did not receive the same consideration.
Their welfare was his responsibility and he hung them out to dry."
No they did not recieve the same consideration, they recieved even more. They chose to remain free on appeal (which they lost?) rather than taking it with the same courage and dignity as Lyle.
He did not hang them out to dry, they hung themselves in every way.
Their welfare was his responsibility and he hung them out to dry."
No they did not recieve the same consideration, they recieved even more. They chose to remain free on appeal (which they lost?) rather than taking it with the same courage and dignity as Lyle.
He did not hang them out to dry, they hung themselves in every way.
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My reason for deleting was because I recieved a number of abusive emails from sources which I've been unable to identify, directly linked to my original comments
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i think this argument has two well founded sides to it. You all make relatively pertinent points. however, i have a more simplistic way of looking situations like these. Life is like two escalators, one going up and one going down. I think we've all been on both at different stages in our lives. It's my belief that those going up have a responsibility to help those going down, rather than turn their backs to them and watch them fail. If this respected and experienced pilot slipped up, it could have happened to the best of us. I mean in fairness it's not as if he planned on making such a mistake, so why hold it against him? If anything imagine how careful he'll be if he ever did get his license back. Although you might say i'm naive (I'm not a pilot yet), I think people deserve second chance, with the right help and rehabilitation. It's so easy to make judging remarks when you feel invincible. But wait till something happens to you, and other people turn their backs on you rather than give a helping hand... anyway that's what i think, I'm not going to get into an argument/debate with someone over it.