Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: On the waterfront
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He should be dealt with appropriately - a life ban and imprisonment are not the answers. Imprisonment should be to protect the public, not to punish. As he is grounded (and should be for 5 years or so in my humble opinion) the public are protected. A sentEnce (note the coorect spelling, NikNak) of 300 hours community service would give hime time to reflect, and supply so tangible benefit to society. After that, a compulsory course on alchohol abuse might be in order.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stockbridge, GA 30281
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Reply to Stilton's msg
Dear Sir,
I rarely check back and read any of the posts here but I just came across yours in which you say I "hung the other pilots out to dry," and "was responsible for their welfare," ad nauseum.
Arrogance and grandiosity often get in the way of fact checking before spouting off, and you provide a great example of that.
You seem to imply that I somehow kept information from the other two crewmembers about the FAA inspector, along with some other assumptions that are so confusing I can't fully understand them. And all of your opinions, which you seem to convert to fact, are erroneous.
First, let's talk about responsibility. It seems fashionable in our current social system to always look to others for blame, deciding that our troubles are the result of he, she, them, they, or it. One of the first tenets of recovery from alcoholism is acceptance of personal responsibility and being accountable, understanding that our problems are of our own making - and not someone else's. And that applies to everyone, not merely alcoholics. We're a nation of victims, always blaming others and remaining victims because we refuse to take responsibility. It's just plain easier to blame someone else than to look in the mirror, where the problem really is.
Using your "blame system," I suppose I should blame the events that transpired on the First Officer. I was peacefully sleeping in my room when he called and suggested that we go to the Speak Easy for some drinks and hors d'oeuvres...so it must have been HIS fault. Never mind that I made a decision that I was responsible for - to go.
Furthermore, using your blame system, it must have been the Second Officer's fault we got into trouble because he mouthed off to some patrons and drew attention to us...never mind that I made a decision to sit there, drink, and be part of the whole thing. I had the First Officer assist the S/O out of the bar and attempted to repair the damage. As the evening progressed I added to the difficulty as well - and I accept that.
I have no one to "blame" but myself. I am responsible for my decisions, and no one else. Nor am I responsible for your decisions, the First Officer's decisions, or the Second Officer's. They didn't put a gun to my head, force me to go, and threaten to shoot me if I didn't drink; nor did anyone do that to them.
Prior to this incident, NO pilots had ever been arrested and publicly foisted into the media limelight around the world...and there had certainly been many, many situations of pilots drinking too much and flying the next day. It had gone on for years...and all of us know that.
The three of us were involved in a common tragedy. We went off the edge of a cliff together...but from THAT moment on we were on our own. We fell separately, landed separately, and had to pick ourselves up separately. They had choices to make and I had choices to make. I made mine, put one foot in front of the other, lived one day at a time, and as the years passed I watched miracles occur. None came quickly and none came easily.
They were on their own path, following their own journey, and were in charge of their decisions;and they did the best they could just as I did.
There is a helluva lot that you don't know. One such thing is that I made a deeply heartfelt and impassioned attempt to get the First Officer back to Northwest. He was the least culpable among us and was - and is - a class act and a gentleman. There were reasons that he wasn't able to return and I wasn't responsible for any of them. The Second Officer lied to the MEC chairman when he attempted to return to NWA and ALPA dropped their support. And I'm not resposible for the S/O's actions, either.
I would suggest that you consider, just a teensy bit, that you don't have all the facts, weren't there, and don't know what is or what isn't. It would behoove you to remember the old saying: "A closed mouth gathers no feet."
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
I rarely check back and read any of the posts here but I just came across yours in which you say I "hung the other pilots out to dry," and "was responsible for their welfare," ad nauseum.
Arrogance and grandiosity often get in the way of fact checking before spouting off, and you provide a great example of that.
You seem to imply that I somehow kept information from the other two crewmembers about the FAA inspector, along with some other assumptions that are so confusing I can't fully understand them. And all of your opinions, which you seem to convert to fact, are erroneous.
First, let's talk about responsibility. It seems fashionable in our current social system to always look to others for blame, deciding that our troubles are the result of he, she, them, they, or it. One of the first tenets of recovery from alcoholism is acceptance of personal responsibility and being accountable, understanding that our problems are of our own making - and not someone else's. And that applies to everyone, not merely alcoholics. We're a nation of victims, always blaming others and remaining victims because we refuse to take responsibility. It's just plain easier to blame someone else than to look in the mirror, where the problem really is.
Using your "blame system," I suppose I should blame the events that transpired on the First Officer. I was peacefully sleeping in my room when he called and suggested that we go to the Speak Easy for some drinks and hors d'oeuvres...so it must have been HIS fault. Never mind that I made a decision that I was responsible for - to go.
Furthermore, using your blame system, it must have been the Second Officer's fault we got into trouble because he mouthed off to some patrons and drew attention to us...never mind that I made a decision to sit there, drink, and be part of the whole thing. I had the First Officer assist the S/O out of the bar and attempted to repair the damage. As the evening progressed I added to the difficulty as well - and I accept that.
I have no one to "blame" but myself. I am responsible for my decisions, and no one else. Nor am I responsible for your decisions, the First Officer's decisions, or the Second Officer's. They didn't put a gun to my head, force me to go, and threaten to shoot me if I didn't drink; nor did anyone do that to them.
Prior to this incident, NO pilots had ever been arrested and publicly foisted into the media limelight around the world...and there had certainly been many, many situations of pilots drinking too much and flying the next day. It had gone on for years...and all of us know that.
The three of us were involved in a common tragedy. We went off the edge of a cliff together...but from THAT moment on we were on our own. We fell separately, landed separately, and had to pick ourselves up separately. They had choices to make and I had choices to make. I made mine, put one foot in front of the other, lived one day at a time, and as the years passed I watched miracles occur. None came quickly and none came easily.
They were on their own path, following their own journey, and were in charge of their decisions;and they did the best they could just as I did.
There is a helluva lot that you don't know. One such thing is that I made a deeply heartfelt and impassioned attempt to get the First Officer back to Northwest. He was the least culpable among us and was - and is - a class act and a gentleman. There were reasons that he wasn't able to return and I wasn't responsible for any of them. The Second Officer lied to the MEC chairman when he attempted to return to NWA and ALPA dropped their support. And I'm not resposible for the S/O's actions, either.
I would suggest that you consider, just a teensy bit, that you don't have all the facts, weren't there, and don't know what is or what isn't. It would behoove you to remember the old saying: "A closed mouth gathers no feet."
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Asia
Age: 55
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alcoolism
I found this interesting article from the flight safety foundation, avition medecine, titled "WHEN BOTTLE MEETS THROTTLE". In it, statements about how ICAO supposedly deals with alcoholism among pilots are stunning...
http://208.37.5.10/asw/sept06/asw_sept06_p32-36.pdf
The problem about alcool in a cockpit should not be analysed at a personal level, nor should we draw conclusions based on generalism. But more importantly alcool problems do not start, nor end, in a cockpit, far from that.
Alcool amoung pilots IS A PROBLEM, and it all starts with
-Medical exams: I do not know about the US, but in Europe, in Africa, and in Asia, the medical exams are jokes.
-Random checks: again, in all continents above mentionned, they are non existant.
-Airline responsability: I strongly believe airlines have more responsability than just writting in an Ops manual rules concerning alcool... I personnaly know so many colleagues having serious alcool problems, and never ever did I hear about mesures taken by any airline, pro/actively, to prevent alcoholic personal to be in command of an airline aircraft (not being drunk does not mean the person is not an alcoholic!!).
-Culture: it seems to me that for most anglo/saxe, drinking is a proof of virility. Again, any heavy drinking habit is easily detectable by medical check, so why is it that nothing is done to tackle the problem (an alcoholic can only heal through abstinence, according to medical studies).
-Last but not least, ICAO: in that article (http://208.37.5.10/asw/sept06/asw_sept06_p32-36.pdf), you can read that according to ICAO "alcoholism amoung crewmembers is relatively infrequent, and taht less than 1 pilot in every 5000 worldwide loses his/her license each year because of problems associated with alcoolim...". Well, that proves what I was trying to develop, the problem is not tackled seriously. My airline has around 5000 pilots, and I personnaly know let say... 100 pilots that have serious alcool problems, that are by medical definition alcoholics.
Now, as a pilot, we have the choice. Let the media trash a pilot now and then because he/she was caught drunk or with a alcool level in his/her blood that is illegal while on duty. Or should we rather start to solve our problem by accepting that there is a problem, and more importantly impose on the ICAO that mesures are taken at all level to eradicate alcoholism amoung the pilots (and not just drunk pilots to show up at work).
http://208.37.5.10/asw/sept06/asw_sept06_p32-36.pdf
The problem about alcool in a cockpit should not be analysed at a personal level, nor should we draw conclusions based on generalism. But more importantly alcool problems do not start, nor end, in a cockpit, far from that.
Alcool amoung pilots IS A PROBLEM, and it all starts with
-Medical exams: I do not know about the US, but in Europe, in Africa, and in Asia, the medical exams are jokes.
-Random checks: again, in all continents above mentionned, they are non existant.
-Airline responsability: I strongly believe airlines have more responsability than just writting in an Ops manual rules concerning alcool... I personnaly know so many colleagues having serious alcool problems, and never ever did I hear about mesures taken by any airline, pro/actively, to prevent alcoholic personal to be in command of an airline aircraft (not being drunk does not mean the person is not an alcoholic!!).
-Culture: it seems to me that for most anglo/saxe, drinking is a proof of virility. Again, any heavy drinking habit is easily detectable by medical check, so why is it that nothing is done to tackle the problem (an alcoholic can only heal through abstinence, according to medical studies).
-Last but not least, ICAO: in that article (http://208.37.5.10/asw/sept06/asw_sept06_p32-36.pdf), you can read that according to ICAO "alcoholism amoung crewmembers is relatively infrequent, and taht less than 1 pilot in every 5000 worldwide loses his/her license each year because of problems associated with alcoolim...". Well, that proves what I was trying to develop, the problem is not tackled seriously. My airline has around 5000 pilots, and I personnaly know let say... 100 pilots that have serious alcool problems, that are by medical definition alcoholics.
Now, as a pilot, we have the choice. Let the media trash a pilot now and then because he/she was caught drunk or with a alcool level in his/her blood that is illegal while on duty. Or should we rather start to solve our problem by accepting that there is a problem, and more importantly impose on the ICAO that mesures are taken at all level to eradicate alcoholism amoung the pilots (and not just drunk pilots to show up at work).
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: france
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what you are saying is that a Pilot whose performance is not impaired any way whatsoever by alcohol at any time in the course of his work should be treated for alcoholism if you think by personal observation that he is a bit of a party animal ?
I would suggest your time be better spent on more important things like lack of sleep and fatigue brought about by excessive work patterns which are far more of a danger to the travelling public.
I would suggest your time be better spent on more important things like lack of sleep and fatigue brought about by excessive work patterns which are far more of a danger to the travelling public.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: west of LTN
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alcohol among pilots is a problem.
Well, only if it suits your argument. Please search for, as far as l know, the facts from "Flying Lawyer".
Also silly statements like medical examinations in europe are a joke is a joke.
l can only speak as a subscriber in the UK, but a finer bunch of eccentrics - operating under the banner of AME`s - working for the best interests of all concerned despite government interference, l couldn`t imagine.
Best to stay away from Amsterdam mon ami, random there is an art form.
Also silly statements like medical examinations in europe are a joke is a joke.
l can only speak as a subscriber in the UK, but a finer bunch of eccentrics - operating under the banner of AME`s - working for the best interests of all concerned despite government interference, l couldn`t imagine.
Best to stay away from Amsterdam mon ami, random there is an art form.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: west of LTN
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Open question.
Is anyone aware of an airline in the UK that doesn`t offer support and counselling for drug and alcohol abuse ? Plainly, that may not be effective but names and phone numbers are routinely given out these days.
Fifteen or so years ago a captain topped himself in the Channel lslands, l believe that was the start of the change in company thinking in the UK.
If you find this boring ? Hard luck pal, this is real life.
Fifteen or so years ago a captain topped himself in the Channel lslands, l believe that was the start of the change in company thinking in the UK.
If you find this boring ? Hard luck pal, this is real life.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Heart of Darkness
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
swordsman
I would suggest your time be better spent on more important things like lack of sleep and fatigue brought about by excessive work patterns which are far more of a danger to the travelling public.
Very true... Back in my airline flying days I found myself getting really depressed with intense, repetative and unsociable schedules... I was drinking for escape at all sorts of odd hours so that I wouldn't conflict with the 8 hr rule and just getting more depressed... I was lucky enough to be in a position to walk away from that type of flying and get my life back together... many.. possibly most pilots out there with established careers and family responsibilities are not able to do so and will find themselves in an ever descending spiral...
I would suggest your time be better spent on more important things like lack of sleep and fatigue brought about by excessive work patterns which are far more of a danger to the travelling public.
Very true... Back in my airline flying days I found myself getting really depressed with intense, repetative and unsociable schedules... I was drinking for escape at all sorts of odd hours so that I wouldn't conflict with the 8 hr rule and just getting more depressed... I was lucky enough to be in a position to walk away from that type of flying and get my life back together... many.. possibly most pilots out there with established careers and family responsibilities are not able to do so and will find themselves in an ever descending spiral...
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Emirates isn't without it's problems again, can anyone shed any light on what happend in DUS on the 1st june.
I heard the mumour the flight was cancelled and it was a LOCAL F/O.
I heard the mumour the flight was cancelled and it was a LOCAL F/O.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Down under
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has been, or is, one of the greatest threads I've read in a long time thanks to the very personal and honest posts.
This is thread should be handed out at every CRM course in aviation. Come to think of it not only in the aviation community but far beyond.
My sincere admiration to the posters like Lyle and for what it's worth: I'd fly right seat with you anytime of the day.
Ebow
This is thread should be handed out at every CRM course in aviation. Come to think of it not only in the aviation community but far beyond.
My sincere admiration to the posters like Lyle and for what it's worth: I'd fly right seat with you anytime of the day.
Ebow
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: INDIA
Age: 49
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alcoholism is problem of society..pilots because of our professional needs have to free of alcohol... I genuinely believe no pilots attempts to be drunk before a flight ...The first time you get caught should be enough of a warning for your conscience...The second time .. Shame on you... One chance should be given second one i think is a no no ... Punishments vary worldwide >We had a case where a f/o doing command training turned up sozzled for sims The instructor promptly stopped his command training and made sure he reverted back to f/o status ...If you get caught the shame and the time off should be good enough... Second time ....
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A pilot from Ukraine International Airlines was arrested at Stockholm Arlanda today, after airport staff reported that his breath smelled heavily of alcohol.
He was arrested on board the 737 bound for Teneriffe suspected of violating the Swedish Aviation Law according to the Stockholm police department.
I guess it's down to the blood test now.
It's probably politically incorrect, but in Scandinavia at least, CIS crews are a bit overrepresented in cases like this. (My opinion obviously)
So far article in Swedish
http://www.aftonbladet.se/stockholm/article704626.ab
He was arrested on board the 737 bound for Teneriffe suspected of violating the Swedish Aviation Law according to the Stockholm police department.
I guess it's down to the blood test now.
It's probably politically incorrect, but in Scandinavia at least, CIS crews are a bit overrepresented in cases like this. (My opinion obviously)
So far article in Swedish
http://www.aftonbladet.se/stockholm/article704626.ab
Mr Prouse: Good evening Sir.
I posted my views here just before I discovered yours.
Your survival during a year in a Very Bad Place and your subsequent recovery earned my respect years ago: not just the fact that you earned all of your ratings, beginning with the Private Pilot license from scratch.
This was posted before I saw your name (to my great surprise):
Many on Pprune are surprisingly ignorant of the fact that a number of pilots with a drinking problem can (if done correctly), with the quiet support of many airlines, return to the c0ckpit. The NAPAP volunteers have a difficult job, from what I can tell.
This is a very clear indication that said Ppruners have no close contacts with working airline pilots, by whom they might become enlightened.
Many years ago at some airlines, the lack of a confidential, complex program which allows some to return to flying, gave some pilots absolutely No incentive to deal with the problem in a progressive way. This gave pilots a very strong incentive to tell nobody.
You never stick your head up if it will be knocked off, in the professional sense.
Many are still in the Dark Ages and believe, as stated by someone else, that alcoholism is a character fault. Dark Age thinking, as with our friends the Taliban. Some have a genetic predisposition.
I posted my views here just before I discovered yours.
Your survival during a year in a Very Bad Place and your subsequent recovery earned my respect years ago: not just the fact that you earned all of your ratings, beginning with the Private Pilot license from scratch.
This was posted before I saw your name (to my great surprise):
Many on Pprune are surprisingly ignorant of the fact that a number of pilots with a drinking problem can (if done correctly), with the quiet support of many airlines, return to the c0ckpit. The NAPAP volunteers have a difficult job, from what I can tell.
This is a very clear indication that said Ppruners have no close contacts with working airline pilots, by whom they might become enlightened.
Many years ago at some airlines, the lack of a confidential, complex program which allows some to return to flying, gave some pilots absolutely No incentive to deal with the problem in a progressive way. This gave pilots a very strong incentive to tell nobody.
You never stick your head up if it will be knocked off, in the professional sense.
Many are still in the Dark Ages and believe, as stated by someone else, that alcoholism is a character fault. Dark Age thinking, as with our friends the Taliban. Some have a genetic predisposition.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 8th Sep 2007 at 04:17.
big up!
