Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots)
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Flying Lawyer
Thanks for the information, at least some of my questions have been answered.
Although "put my mind at rest" may have been a little tongue in cheek I do consider it to be a serious issue and agree that pilot fatigue is certainly a more serious one. Nevertheless the alcohol issue is within the realm of respopnsibilty of individuals and does not rest solely with employers and legislation as does the fatigue issue.
Thanks for the information, at least some of my questions have been answered.
Although "put my mind at rest" may have been a little tongue in cheek I do consider it to be a serious issue and agree that pilot fatigue is certainly a more serious one. Nevertheless the alcohol issue is within the realm of respopnsibilty of individuals and does not rest solely with employers and legislation as does the fatigue issue.
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That's the main difference between us.
I don't.
Another is that you base your opinion on hunch whereas I base mine on facts.
If you find evidence (current or historic) that there is a serious problem of accidents being caused by pilots being impaired by alcohol, no doubt you'll post it. (I assume if you'd found any so far, you would have said what it is.)
Even if you go back many years, and even include 'suspected', you'll find very few - a minute fraction of the millions of flights each year.
Frankly, I can't help but wonder how much (if any) research/reading you've done into what you regard as a 'serious issue' before describing it as such.
FL
I don't.
Another is that you base your opinion on hunch whereas I base mine on facts.
If you find evidence (current or historic) that there is a serious problem of accidents being caused by pilots being impaired by alcohol, no doubt you'll post it. (I assume if you'd found any so far, you would have said what it is.)
Even if you go back many years, and even include 'suspected', you'll find very few - a minute fraction of the millions of flights each year.
Frankly, I can't help but wonder how much (if any) research/reading you've done into what you regard as a 'serious issue' before describing it as such.
FL
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Quote: by flyinglawyer:
According to his Profile, he's a ship's navigator and student PPL.
Ironically, he lists "drinking" amongst his 'interests'.
BRILLIANT!!
FL, you make me laugh (and talk sense!).
FB
According to his Profile, he's a ship's navigator and student PPL.
Ironically, he lists "drinking" amongst his 'interests'.
BRILLIANT!!
FL, you make me laugh (and talk sense!).
FB
niknak
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F Lawyer
I have the utmost respect for most of your postings - as you say, they are nearly always based on black and white facts, but with alcohol problems, that's where your argument falls to pieces.
Alcoholics and people who are affected by alcohol but may not realise it or wish to admit it, but they are very good at hiding the facts, in fact the worse the condition becomes the better they get at self denial, in fact on the same basis, they would probably whip your butt in any court of law, (I don' mean to be flippant, but I suspect it's a good possibility).
Your assertion re accidents related to alcohol are probably perfectly correct, it's a matter of statistics - will you get caught?
The odds are probably the same as winning a substantial sum, (but not the first prize), on whichever lottery, slot machine or drinking establishment you partake in.
I have the utmost respect for most of your postings - as you say, they are nearly always based on black and white facts, but with alcohol problems, that's where your argument falls to pieces.
Alcoholics and people who are affected by alcohol but may not realise it or wish to admit it, but they are very good at hiding the facts, in fact the worse the condition becomes the better they get at self denial, in fact on the same basis, they would probably whip your butt in any court of law, (I don' mean to be flippant, but I suspect it's a good possibility).
Your assertion re accidents related to alcohol are probably perfectly correct, it's a matter of statistics - will you get caught?
The odds are probably the same as winning a substantial sum, (but not the first prize), on whichever lottery, slot machine or drinking establishment you partake in.
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niknak
Thank you for your generous comment.
I didn’t say my postings “are nearly always based on black and white facts.” I’ve been around far too long to see things in b&w.
And, if I may say so, that’s a little strong coming from the very person who started this thread with: “I sincerely hope that he serves the full sentance, gets the help he needs to accept the gravity of his problem, and never, ever flys again,”
I can’t find anything other than a black and white approach in that assertion.
Nor in your revised version: “Perhaps my asertion that the Emirates pilot should never fly again was over the top, but I dont regret the fact that he'll probably never find another job with a major airline” - unless apparently not minding if he eventually finds a job with a non-major airline was meant as some sort of compromise.
(I’m sorry, but the logic of that distinction, if there is any, escapes me.)
The only time you adopted a non b&w approach was when you wrote this in the ATC forum (just a few days after your comment about the Emirates pilot):
Perhaps it’s just a coincidence you happened to adopt a less b&w approach when it was a fellow ATCO and not a pilot?
“but with alcohol problems, that's where your argument falls to pieces.”
Does it?
My argument is that, despite what you correctly say about alcoholics often being able to disguise their problem, and despite the possibility that there may be pilots with alcohol levels above the zero (or virtually zero) limit who escape undetected, there is no serious flight safety problem.
You don’t seem too keen on evidence; people with strongly held preconceived beliefs rarely are if the evidence contradicts their unsupported claims. IMHO, looking at the facts is not a bad place to start, especially before expressing a strong view on a subject.
Despite what you and others who share your view wish to believe, there is not, and there never has been (since the advent of aviation accident investigation and since records were kept), evidence of a problem of accidents being caused by pilots’ ability to fly being impaired by alcohol.
I am not arguing it’s never happened.
BTW, re your ATCO colleague:
", you say, because the policeman saved him from the risk of getting caught at work, being sent to prison and losing his job.
Thank you for your generous comment.
I didn’t say my postings “are nearly always based on black and white facts.” I’ve been around far too long to see things in b&w.
And, if I may say so, that’s a little strong coming from the very person who started this thread with: “I sincerely hope that he serves the full sentance, gets the help he needs to accept the gravity of his problem, and never, ever flys again,”
I can’t find anything other than a black and white approach in that assertion.
Nor in your revised version: “Perhaps my asertion that the Emirates pilot should never fly again was over the top, but I dont regret the fact that he'll probably never find another job with a major airline” - unless apparently not minding if he eventually finds a job with a non-major airline was meant as some sort of compromise.
(I’m sorry, but the logic of that distinction, if there is any, escapes me.)
The only time you adopted a non b&w approach was when you wrote this in the ATC forum (just a few days after your comment about the Emirates pilot):
A colleague ... on his way to work today, (3pm start), ….. minor shunt ….. observed by the local plod. He was breathlysed. He'd had a bit to drink yesterday but stopped at around 6pm, had a big meal and solid sleep until 10am, nonetheless, he still registered on the machine as having alcohol in his system, albeit below the legal driving limit. Plod asked his occupation, which he gave without thinking and said Officer immediately and strongly suggested he turned around, went home, and phoned in sick. Thumbs up to Plod.
“but with alcohol problems, that's where your argument falls to pieces.”
Does it?
My argument is that, despite what you correctly say about alcoholics often being able to disguise their problem, and despite the possibility that there may be pilots with alcohol levels above the zero (or virtually zero) limit who escape undetected, there is no serious flight safety problem.
You don’t seem too keen on evidence; people with strongly held preconceived beliefs rarely are if the evidence contradicts their unsupported claims. IMHO, looking at the facts is not a bad place to start, especially before expressing a strong view on a subject.
Despite what you and others who share your view wish to believe, there is not, and there never has been (since the advent of aviation accident investigation and since records were kept), evidence of a problem of accidents being caused by pilots’ ability to fly being impaired by alcohol.
I am not arguing it’s never happened.
I am not arguing every pilot who’s ever flown over the limit has been caught, or will be caught.
I am not arguing there should be no legal limits.
I am not arguing it's acceptable to fly while impaired by alcohol.
I am not arguing it's acceptable to break the law.
I am arguing that accidents caused by pilots being impaired by alcohol are so rare (since records began) in relation to the millions of miles flown safely every year (since records began) that it cannot sensibly or reasonably be regarded as a flight safety problem.
How has my argument fallen to pieces?
I am not arguing there should be no legal limits.
I am not arguing it's acceptable to fly while impaired by alcohol.
I am not arguing it's acceptable to break the law.
I am arguing that accidents caused by pilots being impaired by alcohol are so rare (since records began) in relation to the millions of miles flown safely every year (since records began) that it cannot sensibly or reasonably be regarded as a flight safety problem.
How has my argument fallen to pieces?
“Your assertion re accidents related to alcohol are probably perfectly correct, it's a matter of statistics - will you get caught?
The odds are probably the same as winning a substantial sum, (but not the first prize), on whichever lottery, slot machine or drinking establishment you partake in.”
Let's consider that proposition.
Whether caught in an accident or caught by the authorities, either way, you can only be 'caught' (in this context) if you're doing something wrong, just as you can only win a gamble if you gamble.
So, for your analogy to be correct, there would have to be an enormous number of pilots regularly flying over the limit. (Gambling that they won't be caught.)
Is that what you believe/assume?
Even if (we've all at least heard anecdotes) some pilots were more inclined to take a chance years ago, my impression (no evidence, just chatting to pilot friends) is that there has been a change of attitude in more recent years towards drinking/flying - long before the law was changed to bring breath-testing into aviation. If that's correct, it would be consistent with the gradual but significant change it attitude towards drink driving. The odds are probably the same as winning a substantial sum, (but not the first prize), on whichever lottery, slot machine or drinking establishment you partake in.”
Let's consider that proposition.
Whether caught in an accident or caught by the authorities, either way, you can only be 'caught' (in this context) if you're doing something wrong, just as you can only win a gamble if you gamble.
So, for your analogy to be correct, there would have to be an enormous number of pilots regularly flying over the limit. (Gambling that they won't be caught.)
Is that what you believe/assume?
BTW, re your ATCO colleague:
Nothing to drink after 6pm, big meal, then slept it off until 10am the next day, yet still over the aviation limit almost 21 hours after his last drink.
Sounds like quite a bender. (Assuming he told you the truth.)
If it was a one-off, it was a big one.
Or perhaps it wasn't a one-off and he's disguising his problem, in the way you correctly described alcoholics often do?
"Thumbs up to Plod. Sounds like quite a bender. (Assuming he told you the truth.)
If it was a one-off, it was a big one.
Or perhaps it wasn't a one-off and he's disguising his problem, in the way you correctly described alcoholics often do?
", you say, because the policeman saved him from the risk of getting caught at work, being sent to prison and losing his job. That's curious.
Given your views expressed in this thread, shouldn't you be wishing (in the interests of those whose lives depend upon ATCOs) that he'd been caught upon arrival at work?
Given your views expressed in this thread, shouldn't you be wishing (in the interests of those whose lives depend upon ATCOs) that he'd been caught upon arrival at work?
FL
(Edit)
Apologies for the length of the post. It's turned out to be much longer than I intended when I started.
Apologies for the length of the post. It's turned out to be much longer than I intended when I started.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 1st Feb 2007 at 20:58.
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FL
Would I be correct in thinking you are only referring to professional airline / military pilots in your last couple of posts?
I do recall a number on instances over the last few years of PPL’s or more frequently student PPL’s, perhaps with only a few hours, becoming the focus of accident/ incident reports by the FAA. Sometime also "taking and flying away"?
IMHO that is a problem, although different from the main thrust of this thread, and I’m not sure how it can be fixed - other than keeping the keys secure!
As usual, good posts and I’m sure you are right in the generality.
(PPL, Sober when flying)
Would I be correct in thinking you are only referring to professional airline / military pilots in your last couple of posts?
I do recall a number on instances over the last few years of PPL’s or more frequently student PPL’s, perhaps with only a few hours, becoming the focus of accident/ incident reports by the FAA. Sometime also "taking and flying away"?
IMHO that is a problem, although different from the main thrust of this thread, and I’m not sure how it can be fixed - other than keeping the keys secure!
As usual, good posts and I’m sure you are right in the generality.
(PPL, Sober when flying)
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FL wise words.
Tiredness is much more of a threat than alcohool.It has the same effect and is more widespread, causes more incidents and reduces the performance of pilots.When is the CAA going to make it mandatory for a third pilot on all transatlantic operations like the US companies do and overhaul flight time limitations to stop pilots sometimes going across the pond and back up to 7 times a month ?
Tiredness is much more of a threat than alcohool.It has the same effect and is more widespread, causes more incidents and reduces the performance of pilots.When is the CAA going to make it mandatory for a third pilot on all transatlantic operations like the US companies do and overhaul flight time limitations to stop pilots sometimes going across the pond and back up to 7 times a month ?
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It would appear that the "change of tack" of the previous post has caused a bit of a lull in what has, to date and in my opinion, been a highly constructive thread. Has anyone got any further input or has the problem of alcohol(ism) in aviation suddenly disappeared?
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Ladies/Gentlemen;
I have been in aviation for 45 years and sober for 27. AA was the lifesaver for me and has given me the last good 27 years of my life and career. I won't go into a long story about my situation but a few of the posts here took me back to the days in the uK when I would walk shakily into a pub and the waiter would have a large neat gin sitting behind one of the posts at the bar. He did this knowing that I would spill half of the drink if I tried to lift it. I thought I was so clever as I kept looking around to see if anyone was watching and then bent my head down to suck the drink from the glass.
I feared everything but most of all that somebody would figure me out. The trouble was that they already had me well figured, long before I sought help.
The day I left the UK for Canada after being kicked out by my wife was the worst day of my life, not because she kicked me out, rather that as I was getting ready to board one of the last Laker DC10s to New York, I had to decide whether or not I could make it to the a/c without entering the pub. I knew I would die if I didn't have a drink and knew also what would happen if I did.
I made the flight without a drink and I shall never forget to the day I do die, how well I was looked after by the stews on that trip. Somehow they seemed to know of my predicament and it was their kindness on that flight that allowed me to make it to my mother's home in Canada. That was Valentine's Day, 1980.
My single greatest fear during the latter part of my drinking was what if I have to stop drinking. I knew I had to find some way to stop and yet, what was I going to do when they took away the very last friend I had in the world.
Remembering what the stewardesses had done for me on the flight, I stood in the airport in Toronto overnight waiting for a flight home the next morning. I stood in front of a bar and watched people drinking inside and tears ran down my face for what seemed like hours. I was so completely ashamed of myself for my inability to deal with this problem, so afraid to quit. The kindness of those girls was what got me through the night without a drink.
I got in touch with AA with the help of my Mum after a terrible bout with the DTs and they gave me my life, career and family back.
I was one of the lucky ones and as much as I am grateful to AA, I again will never forget those stewardesses.
As one who suffered many blackouts while drinking, I have encountered others who have related tales of flights from city to city with absolutely no recall. It may sound strange to some but the people reading this who may have a problem will know exactly what I am talking about.
There is a similar thread on Av Canada relating to the use of marijuana (sp) in aviation today and I see that nothing ever changes, it just remains the same.
I sincerely hope for all of you that may find you have a problem, that you get the help you need and that you too come to experience life without that irrational fear. I was addicted to alcohol but I was afraid of living.
Regards
carholme
I have been in aviation for 45 years and sober for 27. AA was the lifesaver for me and has given me the last good 27 years of my life and career. I won't go into a long story about my situation but a few of the posts here took me back to the days in the uK when I would walk shakily into a pub and the waiter would have a large neat gin sitting behind one of the posts at the bar. He did this knowing that I would spill half of the drink if I tried to lift it. I thought I was so clever as I kept looking around to see if anyone was watching and then bent my head down to suck the drink from the glass.
I feared everything but most of all that somebody would figure me out. The trouble was that they already had me well figured, long before I sought help.
The day I left the UK for Canada after being kicked out by my wife was the worst day of my life, not because she kicked me out, rather that as I was getting ready to board one of the last Laker DC10s to New York, I had to decide whether or not I could make it to the a/c without entering the pub. I knew I would die if I didn't have a drink and knew also what would happen if I did.
I made the flight without a drink and I shall never forget to the day I do die, how well I was looked after by the stews on that trip. Somehow they seemed to know of my predicament and it was their kindness on that flight that allowed me to make it to my mother's home in Canada. That was Valentine's Day, 1980.
My single greatest fear during the latter part of my drinking was what if I have to stop drinking. I knew I had to find some way to stop and yet, what was I going to do when they took away the very last friend I had in the world.
Remembering what the stewardesses had done for me on the flight, I stood in the airport in Toronto overnight waiting for a flight home the next morning. I stood in front of a bar and watched people drinking inside and tears ran down my face for what seemed like hours. I was so completely ashamed of myself for my inability to deal with this problem, so afraid to quit. The kindness of those girls was what got me through the night without a drink.
I got in touch with AA with the help of my Mum after a terrible bout with the DTs and they gave me my life, career and family back.
I was one of the lucky ones and as much as I am grateful to AA, I again will never forget those stewardesses.
As one who suffered many blackouts while drinking, I have encountered others who have related tales of flights from city to city with absolutely no recall. It may sound strange to some but the people reading this who may have a problem will know exactly what I am talking about.
There is a similar thread on Av Canada relating to the use of marijuana (sp) in aviation today and I see that nothing ever changes, it just remains the same.
I sincerely hope for all of you that may find you have a problem, that you get the help you need and that you too come to experience life without that irrational fear. I was addicted to alcohol but I was afraid of living.
Regards
carholme
Take a look at this monologue from Craig Ferguson, where he speaks on his past problems as an alcoholic. He's living proof that there is help and there is hope.
Jeff
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7bbaRyDLMvA
Jeff
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7bbaRyDLMvA
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alcohol
Lyle, Carholme,
I can relate...I have had problems related to alcohol my entire life but never put 2 and 2 together until I was completely out of control of my choice to not drink. Anyone that has been there knows the unbearable horror of alcoholism. While flying for the Navy, I was arrested for DWI and put through a program and given periodic urinalysis testing to ensure that I was complying. The Navy considered me a "problem drinker" so my skipper didn't give much attention to the fact that as soon as I was transfered I went right back to my old ways. Booze has been a millstone that I have carried and it has caused much grief. I finaly began to get health problems as well as blackouts where 3 and 4 day periods are completely lost to memory. I haven't flown since 1992 and my last career as a stock trader along with my perpetually drunk or hung state has gotten me into legal problems that may result in a felony (not alcohol related). I finaly went to rehab on my own and at the ripe age of 46 I am going to try to get back into flying. I will have to start from square one with the licenses but believe that it is all still in me. Of course ATP is not in the cards but a small local puddle jumper I would consider an accomlishment considering where I have sunk to. I agree that alcoholism is a condition that must be managed but I also believe that people should be given a second chance. Lyle, you are something of a public figure and an inspiration since you have some similar experiences. Does anyone know if I am correct in my research that one may obtain FAA licenses with a felony? Any information or inspiration would be appreciated. Sorry if I sound like I am whining but some of the previous posts just rang so true that I felt that my gut spilling would be well empathetically recieved.
KB
I can relate...I have had problems related to alcohol my entire life but never put 2 and 2 together until I was completely out of control of my choice to not drink. Anyone that has been there knows the unbearable horror of alcoholism. While flying for the Navy, I was arrested for DWI and put through a program and given periodic urinalysis testing to ensure that I was complying. The Navy considered me a "problem drinker" so my skipper didn't give much attention to the fact that as soon as I was transfered I went right back to my old ways. Booze has been a millstone that I have carried and it has caused much grief. I finaly began to get health problems as well as blackouts where 3 and 4 day periods are completely lost to memory. I haven't flown since 1992 and my last career as a stock trader along with my perpetually drunk or hung state has gotten me into legal problems that may result in a felony (not alcohol related). I finaly went to rehab on my own and at the ripe age of 46 I am going to try to get back into flying. I will have to start from square one with the licenses but believe that it is all still in me. Of course ATP is not in the cards but a small local puddle jumper I would consider an accomlishment considering where I have sunk to. I agree that alcoholism is a condition that must be managed but I also believe that people should be given a second chance. Lyle, you are something of a public figure and an inspiration since you have some similar experiences. Does anyone know if I am correct in my research that one may obtain FAA licenses with a felony? Any information or inspiration would be appreciated. Sorry if I sound like I am whining but some of the previous posts just rang so true that I felt that my gut spilling would be well empathetically recieved.
KB
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KB
I can offer no opinion on the felony situation and would suggest you contact the FAA directly.
When I managed to put the cork in the bottle, I was 34 years old and will be 60 this month. At 34 years old I was given a second chance. I was approached by an employer who knew me and offered a position with only one stipulation, that if I took a drink, I would be gone. It wasn't presented in harsh terms, it was just a fact. They wanted me to work there but knowing my past history, they had to put it on the table.
Only six months sober, the glow was wearing off and the reality of living was starting to set in and I took the challenge and literally, one day at a time.
It became one of the greatest experiences of my life. In a senior position with the company, who knew very little about alcoholism, I will never get over how supportive they were in many strange ways. From the floor sweepers to the President, they would ask how things were going, if I was attending meetings, if everything was OK, etc.
It was all very subtle and in a strange way, next to AA. that gang helped to save my life. Many of the people in that company had booze problems of their own and I never interfered in that, I had my own problems to deal with trying to stay sober. What they did provide was an opportunity for me to get back into a society that suffered from all kinds of problems, all kinds of joys and sorrows, flight and technical problems and people problems. They allowed me to be one of them again.
Do we deserve a second chance? Of course everybody does but my experience has taught me that it is not a case of whether I deserve it or not, it is a case of staying sober one day at a time. As long as I am able to do this, chances will present themselves as they have these many years.
I am one of the most fortunate people alive for I was given a second chance to have my life back and to be able to make choices.
I hope that you are able to get some form of license back but even if you can't and you are still sober, you have to ask yourself if you have already been given that second chance.
I wish you every success.
Regards
carholme
I can offer no opinion on the felony situation and would suggest you contact the FAA directly.
When I managed to put the cork in the bottle, I was 34 years old and will be 60 this month. At 34 years old I was given a second chance. I was approached by an employer who knew me and offered a position with only one stipulation, that if I took a drink, I would be gone. It wasn't presented in harsh terms, it was just a fact. They wanted me to work there but knowing my past history, they had to put it on the table.
Only six months sober, the glow was wearing off and the reality of living was starting to set in and I took the challenge and literally, one day at a time.
It became one of the greatest experiences of my life. In a senior position with the company, who knew very little about alcoholism, I will never get over how supportive they were in many strange ways. From the floor sweepers to the President, they would ask how things were going, if I was attending meetings, if everything was OK, etc.
It was all very subtle and in a strange way, next to AA. that gang helped to save my life. Many of the people in that company had booze problems of their own and I never interfered in that, I had my own problems to deal with trying to stay sober. What they did provide was an opportunity for me to get back into a society that suffered from all kinds of problems, all kinds of joys and sorrows, flight and technical problems and people problems. They allowed me to be one of them again.
Do we deserve a second chance? Of course everybody does but my experience has taught me that it is not a case of whether I deserve it or not, it is a case of staying sober one day at a time. As long as I am able to do this, chances will present themselves as they have these many years.
I am one of the most fortunate people alive for I was given a second chance to have my life back and to be able to make choices.
I hope that you are able to get some form of license back but even if you can't and you are still sober, you have to ask yourself if you have already been given that second chance.
I wish you every success.
Regards
carholme
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"There are those of us that have and there are those of us that will." This cliche is true for many things in life but none more so than alcohol. To personify it, it is like a skillful conman that appeals to you when you are desperate and weak. I to used booze as a coping mechanism but in reality the escape doesn't fix the situatuions it only makes more of them. Until I came to grips with my own problem I didn't realize how many others were in the same trap. The ravages of alcoholism run broad and deep in our society. No wonder it was outlawed more than once throughout history. Thanks for the encouragement that you offer through your personal experience and I hope I will be able to find some small measure of your good fortune. I am at the point that you were in that I will not screw-up any chance I get to get my life back on track regardless of the challenges. Now that I can think claerly again I am amazed that I let things get so far out of control but that is the nature of the booze beast. I just hope that now as I try to get back into society that people will look past the "me" on paper and see that I am worth a chance. Having to always explain the stupid things that I have done as a drunk is not going to be easy but what choice is there?