Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots)
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But the story will go on for as long as there is alcohol available in society and I am most definitely not proposing the return of prohibition.
I flew commercially for some years and in that time I was often 'under the influence' from the previous nights excesses. This is not something I am proud of but I have learnt lessons since which I hope might benefit others. My Flying career came to a sudden end when a melanoma was found on one of my retinas and subsequent operations led to a partial loss of periphal vision. My reaction was to drown my sorrows in a three month binge the details of which I won't go into except to say that in that period I reached a rock bottom the likes of which I would rather not return to. More importantly I came to believe and admit that I had a serious drink problem (of thirty years standing) and that I could not lick it on my own.
I have now not touched alcohol for well over a year and am most relieved and grateful to be able to class myself as a recovering alcoholic.
That I did not kill myself or, more importantly, anyone else when I was flying, and alot of the time certainly not fit to be doing so, is a miracle about which I have beliefs. That I have been given an opportunity to live a life as a recovering alcoholic is a fact for which I owe a large debt of gratitude.
I believe that an active alcoholic is nine times out of ten living a life of denial. Initially denial that any sort of drink problem exists and at the same time a denial of reality. Just as a drink driver might believe that he is not only capable of driving but maybe even better at it than the next person an alcoholic pilot can believe that he is completely capable of performing his duties and will rationalise his arguments to the extent that he knows he is right beyond doubt. I know this in no way exonerates him for his actions but it is an undoubted part of the illness
So to say that this cannot be done is unfortunately not the case. The story will continue and I feel an important question is how can the situation best be handled.
For my part I now work as a ground instructor and when not at work dedicate alot of my time to working with fellow alcoholics. One of the most challenging aspects (and at times rewarding) of this is addressing the question of denial. Once the problem has been recognised and admitted to, then and only then can steps be taken to make good damage done in the past and hopefully prevent further damage being done.
I flew commercially for some years and in that time I was often 'under the influence' from the previous nights excesses. This is not something I am proud of but I have learnt lessons since which I hope might benefit others. My Flying career came to a sudden end when a melanoma was found on one of my retinas and subsequent operations led to a partial loss of periphal vision. My reaction was to drown my sorrows in a three month binge the details of which I won't go into except to say that in that period I reached a rock bottom the likes of which I would rather not return to. More importantly I came to believe and admit that I had a serious drink problem (of thirty years standing) and that I could not lick it on my own.
I have now not touched alcohol for well over a year and am most relieved and grateful to be able to class myself as a recovering alcoholic.
That I did not kill myself or, more importantly, anyone else when I was flying, and alot of the time certainly not fit to be doing so, is a miracle about which I have beliefs. That I have been given an opportunity to live a life as a recovering alcoholic is a fact for which I owe a large debt of gratitude.
I believe that an active alcoholic is nine times out of ten living a life of denial. Initially denial that any sort of drink problem exists and at the same time a denial of reality. Just as a drink driver might believe that he is not only capable of driving but maybe even better at it than the next person an alcoholic pilot can believe that he is completely capable of performing his duties and will rationalise his arguments to the extent that he knows he is right beyond doubt. I know this in no way exonerates him for his actions but it is an undoubted part of the illness
So to say that this cannot be done is unfortunately not the case. The story will continue and I feel an important question is how can the situation best be handled.
For my part I now work as a ground instructor and when not at work dedicate alot of my time to working with fellow alcoholics. One of the most challenging aspects (and at times rewarding) of this is addressing the question of denial. Once the problem has been recognised and admitted to, then and only then can steps be taken to make good damage done in the past and hopefully prevent further damage being done.
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pilot jailed
I am near the end of my flying life,(now recreational) but reading most of the pontifications on JD( who I do NOT know) I am forced to become very Biblical
He without sin may cast the first stone.
I would venture to say that most of the authors of the diatribe holier than thou, at some time of their flying life have broken the Bottle to Throttle flying rules be whatever thay were/are.
JD sound like any other Red blooded male who had a slip in judgment, but I would bet the remainder of my pension his F/O or Senoir Cabin attendant would have had a word in his reddening ear about pissing off home sick.
And called for a standby pilot due "ill health."
( he was Ill. just lost his marbles on one occasion) so now ostracised for the rest of his Life.
Come on Guys and some Girls,
Grow up and shoulder together.
The public envy us enough as it is, because we are all millionairs yeah.
BBG
He without sin may cast the first stone.
I would venture to say that most of the authors of the diatribe holier than thou, at some time of their flying life have broken the Bottle to Throttle flying rules be whatever thay were/are.
JD sound like any other Red blooded male who had a slip in judgment, but I would bet the remainder of my pension his F/O or Senoir Cabin attendant would have had a word in his reddening ear about pissing off home sick.
And called for a standby pilot due "ill health."
( he was Ill. just lost his marbles on one occasion) so now ostracised for the rest of his Life.
Come on Guys and some Girls,
Grow up and shoulder together.
The public envy us enough as it is, because we are all millionairs yeah.
BBG
Last edited by gulfairs; 25th Jan 2007 at 18:58.
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Sad Fact
Unfortunately it's quirk of human nature that the imprisonment of one pilot and the ensuing possible total loss of livelihood is likely to stop more pilots from drinking before flying, than an accident with massive loss of life where alcohol was shown to be a contributing factor.
I'm full of praise for the successes of those posters who are recovering alcoholics, but there are also failures in the fight with alcohol and can we afford those.
I'm full of praise for the successes of those posters who are recovering alcoholics, but there are also failures in the fight with alcohol and can we afford those.
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i'm directly responsible for 1800 souls for 8 hours a day, everyday for 8 months a year. I would never hand over a duty to someone intoxicated, and i believe that anyone intoxicated who decides to try and take responsibility should be punished to the maximum extent and never should be given a second chance considering how important life is!!!!
I think anyone who believes otherwise should try to consider the position from a managerial point of view,.
I think anyone who believes otherwise should try to consider the position from a managerial point of view,.
Have you read even one tenth of this thread? Somehow I doubt it, but in any case, it will no doubt be a surprise to you that many flight operations managers (myself included) do not take your view at all. Rather, we take the much more human view that people are an asset and that you manage them accordingly. Yes, you must intervene if they try to work under the influence, but you do not toss them aside as if they're trash. You show them the path to getting better, and you try to help them get back on their feet. When they accept responsibility for their past behaviour and they take the necessary steps to get better, you welcome them with open arms. The day you make a mistake (and you will, it's only a matter of time), I certainly hope your manager has a more open mind than yourself.
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Consider the following transgessions, then consider their possible effects on third parties, the normal punishments and ultimate effect on the livelihood of the offender:
1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.
2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.
3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.
4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.
Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!
I lived in Dubai for 9 years and routinely watched Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders. This suggests to me that these actions are not being policed by the peers of the offenders or the industry. Again these people were "nice guys" not alcoholics. They were enjoying a social drink and knew exactly what they were doing. I'm reasonably confident that Dubai is not unique in this.
We have all read from earlier posters the notion that "we have all done this at some point and got away with it" and seem to be offering it as some sort of defence for the offenders. If this statement is correct the colleagues of these individuals have also knowingly ignored the events, so the internal policing scenario seems a bit flawed.
In Dubai, where JD has been jailed, this punishment certainly is not extreme as you can end in prison simply for being the manager of a company in which an employee has been injured or killed. No defence is being offered for Dubai here.
No one wants to see anyone lose their livelihood but certain individuals are not taking their responsibilities seriously. If the industry cannot take care of its own dirty laundry then it deserves all it gets
1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.
2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.
3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.
4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.
Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!
I lived in Dubai for 9 years and routinely watched Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders. This suggests to me that these actions are not being policed by the peers of the offenders or the industry. Again these people were "nice guys" not alcoholics. They were enjoying a social drink and knew exactly what they were doing. I'm reasonably confident that Dubai is not unique in this.
We have all read from earlier posters the notion that "we have all done this at some point and got away with it" and seem to be offering it as some sort of defence for the offenders. If this statement is correct the colleagues of these individuals have also knowingly ignored the events, so the internal policing scenario seems a bit flawed.
In Dubai, where JD has been jailed, this punishment certainly is not extreme as you can end in prison simply for being the manager of a company in which an employee has been injured or killed. No defence is being offered for Dubai here.
No one wants to see anyone lose their livelihood but certain individuals are not taking their responsibilities seriously. If the industry cannot take care of its own dirty laundry then it deserves all it gets
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Judging by a few of the recent posts, it would seem we’ve found ourselves a whole new readership for this thread – and one that hasn’t bothered to wade through the very many posts that make it up before illuminating us with their wisdom. Little Boy, you say:
Which begs the obvious question: …and you “watched” this “routinely” for 9 years and did nor said nothing?
I suspect your routine watching of EK pilots drinking to excess before flying can be given about as much credibility as the accuracy of your “knowledge” of this case.
I lived in Dubai for 9 years and routinely watched Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders.
I suspect your routine watching of EK pilots drinking to excess before flying can be given about as much credibility as the accuracy of your “knowledge” of this case.
In Dubai, where JD has been jailed,
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The Human Animal
(Laughing lightly....)
Looks like the Merry Go Round has come full circle.
It's easy for me to take the high road of smug superiority and wallow in self-righteous delusions of grandeur, believing in my own near-perfection. Thus I can render all sorts of pronouncements, judgments, and brilliant argument to lesser beings.
The only thing I have to do is set my own personal standards low enough to let me think like that...
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
Recovering alcoholic, and honorably ret'd 747 captain of considerably more than 22 years of age and experience.
Looks like the Merry Go Round has come full circle.
It's easy for me to take the high road of smug superiority and wallow in self-righteous delusions of grandeur, believing in my own near-perfection. Thus I can render all sorts of pronouncements, judgments, and brilliant argument to lesser beings.
The only thing I have to do is set my own personal standards low enough to let me think like that...
Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
Recovering alcoholic, and honorably ret'd 747 captain of considerably more than 22 years of age and experience.
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Wiley
I apologise for my error over the venue of JDs imprisonment, and yes it did seem fairly lenient for Dubai. I had read a large number of the posts before posting and a couple of those suggested that the offence occurred in Dubai. I have now read all of the posts including #135 which contained UK information.
I also note that you appear to work for Emirates so matbe you know what I'm talking about. So, whether you accept the information in my previous post as credible or not means nothing to me, it happened.
I do not and did not work for Emirates but did know some of the pilots to talk through my friendships with FAs and recognised others ditto. I suppose I could have called the cops or something, but aren't you guys who share a flightdeck in a better position to deal with it with less risk to these guys' livelihood.
I'm not on a soapbox ranting about sacking and banning people because they've had a few drinks. Flying whilst over the limit is an offence, its happening and if the industry doesn't deal with you can be sure, in this day and age, someone else will.
I work in the offshore oil industry where a number of companies now operate a zero tolerence policy where passengers can turn up at a chopper, fit to fly a plane, but will be sacked for failing the breath test and subsequent blood test.
I apologise for my error over the venue of JDs imprisonment, and yes it did seem fairly lenient for Dubai. I had read a large number of the posts before posting and a couple of those suggested that the offence occurred in Dubai. I have now read all of the posts including #135 which contained UK information.
I also note that you appear to work for Emirates so matbe you know what I'm talking about. So, whether you accept the information in my previous post as credible or not means nothing to me, it happened.
Which begs the obvious question: …and you “watched” this “routinely” for 9 years and did nor said nothing?
I'm not on a soapbox ranting about sacking and banning people because they've had a few drinks. Flying whilst over the limit is an offence, its happening and if the industry doesn't deal with you can be sure, in this day and age, someone else will.
I work in the offshore oil industry where a number of companies now operate a zero tolerence policy where passengers can turn up at a chopper, fit to fly a plane, but will be sacked for failing the breath test and subsequent blood test.
Consider the following transgessions, then consider their possible effects on third parties, the normal punishments and ultimate effect on the livelihood of the offender:
1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.
2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.
3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.
4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.
Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!
1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.
2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.
3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.
4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.
Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!
As for the car driver vs bus driver vs pilot, this too is a flawed argument. You make it sound like the pilot should be treated differently (i.e. more harshly) because of the number of lives at stake. Putting even one person's life in danger is wrong, period. Same would apply for a doctor or a trainman or anyone else. No one here has suggested that JD wasn't wrong in what he did. We simply believe he deserves the chance to redeem himself and get back in the seat, just like the car driver, or the bus driver, or even your professional athelete can do once their penance has been paid. The fact that EK would let their desire to save face get in the way of that is a shame. It certainly pushes them down several notches on my list of companies I'd want to work for, and I rarely drink at all!
For pilots who have returned to flying after completing a detox program and the twelve steps (or some similar support process), the success rate (i.e. staying sober) is over 90%. From a management perspective, that number represents a significant benefit by retaining alot of valuable experience. Those who succeed often go on to help others as well, such as Lyle, Chuck and the others who have spoken of their personal experiences in this thread.
Finally, unless you can prove beyond doubt that those EK pilots you claim you "saw" drinking to excess were actually under the influence when they went to work, you may want to think twice before making such provocative statements.
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Little Boy, allow me to give you an example as to why I reacted the way I did to your – let’s face it – very serious allegation. And as you read on, the fact that you mention that your contacts with EK pilots was via your friendship with some EK FAs might be particularly pertinent.
A little over 12 months ago, (mid Jan 2006), a senior EK pilot was doing his annual line check, an 8.00am departure to another Gulf port. On the first leg, the check captain had left the flight deck briefly for the usual reason and when he returned, asked the captain if he could speak to him in private in the forward galley. He told the captain that one of the FAs had just told him that she had seen the captain at a party the night before ‘absolutely wasted’ only an hour or two before sign-on for the flight.
The captain was mystified, as the last thing even the most cock-sure of us is going to be doing before his early morning line check (or any flight!) is even attending a party the night before, let alone being ‘absolutely wasted’ at it. He asked to speak to the girl who had made the allegation.
“Oh, I didn’t see you; one of the other girls on the crew did.”
The other girl was asked to come to the galley and she was asked if what the first girl said was true. “Oh, it wasn’t last night – it was last week at *****’s party.”
“That was New Year’s Eve!” said the captain, (over a week earlier). “And I had the first few days of January off.”
“Yes, but you were really drunk.” replied the girl.
The two captains involved laughed the incident off – a classic case of Chinese Whispers.
I’m not sure I would have been so laid back about it. Those two young ladies needed to be made aware that there are consequences to making comments like that.
In your original post, you say you saw
Although you don’t actually say it, most people reading a comment like that would take it to read “drinking to excess immediately before flying” (ie, late at night the night before an early morning departure).
It would seem from your second post that your sources who introduced you to these EK pilots are EK FAs. Is it possible that your routine sightings might have been a bit like the one I’ve detailed above? If they weren’t, and your recollections are accurate, I’d hate to think how you’d have felt if just on one of the many occasions over that 9 year period where you routinely saw EK pilots drinking to excess before flights, 300+ people had died due to the pilot being drunk.
A little over 12 months ago, (mid Jan 2006), a senior EK pilot was doing his annual line check, an 8.00am departure to another Gulf port. On the first leg, the check captain had left the flight deck briefly for the usual reason and when he returned, asked the captain if he could speak to him in private in the forward galley. He told the captain that one of the FAs had just told him that she had seen the captain at a party the night before ‘absolutely wasted’ only an hour or two before sign-on for the flight.
The captain was mystified, as the last thing even the most cock-sure of us is going to be doing before his early morning line check (or any flight!) is even attending a party the night before, let alone being ‘absolutely wasted’ at it. He asked to speak to the girl who had made the allegation.
“Oh, I didn’t see you; one of the other girls on the crew did.”
The other girl was asked to come to the galley and she was asked if what the first girl said was true. “Oh, it wasn’t last night – it was last week at *****’s party.”
“That was New Year’s Eve!” said the captain, (over a week earlier). “And I had the first few days of January off.”
“Yes, but you were really drunk.” replied the girl.
The two captains involved laughed the incident off – a classic case of Chinese Whispers.
I’m not sure I would have been so laid back about it. Those two young ladies needed to be made aware that there are consequences to making comments like that.
In your original post, you say you saw
“Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders.”
It would seem from your second post that your sources who introduced you to these EK pilots are EK FAs. Is it possible that your routine sightings might have been a bit like the one I’ve detailed above? If they weren’t, and your recollections are accurate, I’d hate to think how you’d have felt if just on one of the many occasions over that 9 year period where you routinely saw EK pilots drinking to excess before flights, 300+ people had died due to the pilot being drunk.
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Wiley,
Sadly, neither rumour nor conjecture. The only uncertainty on my part arises from the fact that I did not see these guys board the aircraft, that they did is the subject of 3rd party information. However I am pleased that this has shocked you as maybe the practice is (or was) not as widely spread as I had imagined. I don't know how long you have lived in Dubai, but the period I am referring to was from 1991 to 2000 although I am still a frequent visitor. Dubai during this period was a very different place from what it is today. In 1991 the majority of a relatively small ex-pat community congregated around certain bars in Bur Dubai and the Lodge and it was rare to see people you didn't recognise. At this time I lived in the Hyatt Galleria and later during the mentioned time frame frequently visited a certain bar just behind 5 towers (they were considered to be towers when built) on Sheikh Zayed Rd. Depending on how long you have been in Dubai you may or may not know the significance of these 2 venues.
My own recollectons in conjunction with reading this thread prompted me to post and I am trying, successfully or not, to raise questions in order to elicit an informed response.
JO
I find it hard to believe that my arguments are flawed as I have offered none. I proffered a set of scenarios and asked for answers. I did put forward my opinion that maybe Professional Athletes are treated a little harshly. Typically, those testing positive for prohibited substances will recieve a ban ranging from from 2-10 years which in a number of sports is effectively ending their career and their livelihood. We can look at this offence as cheating or as breaking their contract of employment. The other 3 activities involve breaking the (UK) law and possibly breaking a contract of employment as well.
We may or may not believe the legislation and / or the penalties to be fair but they are there and have to be accepted. Whether you or I agree with it or not is irrelevant, somebody somewhere obviously believes that drinking and flying is a more serious offence than drinking and driving hence
20mg/100ml and 2 years max
as opposed to
80mg/100ml and 6 months max
I am asking questions to which I do not know the answers, which arise out of what I believe to be a logical thought process.
Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
Why was the legislation introduced?
Is there a problem?
Is the industry successfully policing itself?
If we look at the cases of the Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk. In both cases they were flagged by security and in both cases their colleagues seemed to state that they noticed nothing wrong with them. From this thread and others it is obvious that there is some animosity between aircrew and security.........So, some more questions.
Did security on the days in question flag a number of pilots and these were the only positives?
Are most pilots flying drunk and therefore security have a good chance of a hit?
Do security flag any pilot who they may feel has a bit of an attitude? If so what's the success rate?
Did security on the days in question only flag these pilots and correctly diagnose the cause of the supposedly abnormal behaviour?
I don't know the answer to the above, I wasn't there.
Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!
Sadly, neither rumour nor conjecture. The only uncertainty on my part arises from the fact that I did not see these guys board the aircraft, that they did is the subject of 3rd party information. However I am pleased that this has shocked you as maybe the practice is (or was) not as widely spread as I had imagined. I don't know how long you have lived in Dubai, but the period I am referring to was from 1991 to 2000 although I am still a frequent visitor. Dubai during this period was a very different place from what it is today. In 1991 the majority of a relatively small ex-pat community congregated around certain bars in Bur Dubai and the Lodge and it was rare to see people you didn't recognise. At this time I lived in the Hyatt Galleria and later during the mentioned time frame frequently visited a certain bar just behind 5 towers (they were considered to be towers when built) on Sheikh Zayed Rd. Depending on how long you have been in Dubai you may or may not know the significance of these 2 venues.
My own recollectons in conjunction with reading this thread prompted me to post and I am trying, successfully or not, to raise questions in order to elicit an informed response.
JO
I find it hard to believe that my arguments are flawed as I have offered none. I proffered a set of scenarios and asked for answers. I did put forward my opinion that maybe Professional Athletes are treated a little harshly. Typically, those testing positive for prohibited substances will recieve a ban ranging from from 2-10 years which in a number of sports is effectively ending their career and their livelihood. We can look at this offence as cheating or as breaking their contract of employment. The other 3 activities involve breaking the (UK) law and possibly breaking a contract of employment as well.
We may or may not believe the legislation and / or the penalties to be fair but they are there and have to be accepted. Whether you or I agree with it or not is irrelevant, somebody somewhere obviously believes that drinking and flying is a more serious offence than drinking and driving hence
20mg/100ml and 2 years max
as opposed to
80mg/100ml and 6 months max
I am asking questions to which I do not know the answers, which arise out of what I believe to be a logical thought process.
Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
Why was the legislation introduced?
Is there a problem?
Is the industry successfully policing itself?
If we look at the cases of the Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk. In both cases they were flagged by security and in both cases their colleagues seemed to state that they noticed nothing wrong with them. From this thread and others it is obvious that there is some animosity between aircrew and security.........So, some more questions.
Did security on the days in question flag a number of pilots and these were the only positives?
Are most pilots flying drunk and therefore security have a good chance of a hit?
Do security flag any pilot who they may feel has a bit of an attitude? If so what's the success rate?
Did security on the days in question only flag these pilots and correctly diagnose the cause of the supposedly abnormal behaviour?
I don't know the answer to the above, I wasn't there.
Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!
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Little Boy
Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event. Why was the legislation introduced?
In relation to the UK: No. The legislation was not introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 was the first convenient legislative opportunity to bring UK legislation relating to alcohol/aviation into line with most of the rest of Europe. The blood/alcohol limit for aviation personnel is lower than that in shipping or on roads or railways, but reflects the Joint Aviation Requirements Commercial Air Transportation (JAR-OPS), adopted by the Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) in 1996. The UK's adoption of this limit was intended to further the harmonisation of standards across Europe.
Before the 2003 Act, the relevant legislation was contained in the Air Navigation Order. In very brief summary, the new Act created an additional offence of being over the prescribed limit, introduced breath-testing and changed the wording of the offence relating to being impaired by alcohol.
The Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk.
I can only comment on the Royal Brunei pilot who was dealt with in the UK. I represented him and am familiar with the facts of the case.
He was prosecuted for being over the legal limit.
There was no evidence that he was 'drunk'.
Had there been, he would have been prosecuted for the alternative and more serious offence.
There is no such thing in UK law as "legally" drunk, although evidence may be given which, if accepted, entitles a court to find as a fact that someone was drunk. I mention that only to correct your misunderstanding. It has no relevance to the Royal Brunei case for the reason I've explained.
Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!
I have no idea why your mind isn't already at rest.
There is no evidence that alcohol is a serious problem in terms of flight safety. ie The stats show that the chance of an aircraft crash/incident being caused, or contributed to, by a pilot's ability being impaired by alcohol is so remote that there's no sensible reason to be worried.
If you've actually read this thread, as you say you have, then perhaps you missed the link to the result of a study into whether there is a problem. Given the tone of your posts, I think you would have found the conclusions reassuring.
If you want something flight safety related to be worried about, I suggest you read up about pilot fatigue.
FL
Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event. Why was the legislation introduced?
In relation to the UK: No. The legislation was not introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 was the first convenient legislative opportunity to bring UK legislation relating to alcohol/aviation into line with most of the rest of Europe. The blood/alcohol limit for aviation personnel is lower than that in shipping or on roads or railways, but reflects the Joint Aviation Requirements Commercial Air Transportation (JAR-OPS), adopted by the Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) in 1996. The UK's adoption of this limit was intended to further the harmonisation of standards across Europe.
Before the 2003 Act, the relevant legislation was contained in the Air Navigation Order. In very brief summary, the new Act created an additional offence of being over the prescribed limit, introduced breath-testing and changed the wording of the offence relating to being impaired by alcohol.
Is there a problem?
If you mean in terms of flight safety, no.
If you mean in terms of flight safety, no.
Is the industry successfully policing itself?
Yes, IMHO.
Yes, IMHO.
The Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk.
I can only comment on the Royal Brunei pilot who was dealt with in the UK. I represented him and am familiar with the facts of the case.
He was prosecuted for being over the legal limit.
There was no evidence that he was 'drunk'.
Had there been, he would have been prosecuted for the alternative and more serious offence.
There is no such thing in UK law as "legally" drunk, although evidence may be given which, if accepted, entitles a court to find as a fact that someone was drunk. I mention that only to correct your misunderstanding. It has no relevance to the Royal Brunei case for the reason I've explained.
Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!
I have no idea why your mind isn't already at rest.
There is no evidence that alcohol is a serious problem in terms of flight safety. ie The stats show that the chance of an aircraft crash/incident being caused, or contributed to, by a pilot's ability being impaired by alcohol is so remote that there's no sensible reason to be worried.
If you've actually read this thread, as you say you have, then perhaps you missed the link to the result of a study into whether there is a problem. Given the tone of your posts, I think you would have found the conclusions reassuring.
If you want something flight safety related to be worried about, I suggest you read up about pilot fatigue.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 29th Jan 2007 at 18:34.
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I just started reading this thread and I have to commend Lyle on his frankness and honesty. Not many people could own up to this type of behavior, take responsibility for it and then use it as a positive experience to mentor others.
I myself am struggling through this addiction and I can't seem to stop from drinking no matter how much I tell myself I need to. I've never had any life changing events that others have had that spurn them into recovery, like getting arrested or something. I have a spotless record, a loving wife and wonderful kids. I have no reason to get bombed nightly and yet I do almost every evening. I'm 32, have been drinking since I was 16 and I see the old alcoholics at the bar and realize I am heading right into their bar stool once they pass away. I'm not 20 anymore, not in college drinking with my buddies before a game or on a Friday evening. Drinking isn't fun anymore. I don't have a beer to take it easy. I drink to get drunk, to feel something more than what I feel when I am sober...which is something I can't exactly put my finger on.
I'd blame being on the road alot, in fact I have used that excuse before to justify drinking alone in a hotel room or at a hotel bar by myself, but I now understand it doesn't matter where I am, who I am with and what I am doing...I constantly crave having a drink and once I get the first one, I need to the second and then the third...etc. I am up to about 12 beers just to catch a buzz and another 6 after that to feel good, happy, relaxed.
I often wonder how things got this bad and who I could blame. Well the answer is no one except myself for being so weak to let this one thing have total control over me. I also worry what kind of example I am setting for my children. Obviously not a good one.
Anyway, once again Lyle thanks for the perspective.
I myself am struggling through this addiction and I can't seem to stop from drinking no matter how much I tell myself I need to. I've never had any life changing events that others have had that spurn them into recovery, like getting arrested or something. I have a spotless record, a loving wife and wonderful kids. I have no reason to get bombed nightly and yet I do almost every evening. I'm 32, have been drinking since I was 16 and I see the old alcoholics at the bar and realize I am heading right into their bar stool once they pass away. I'm not 20 anymore, not in college drinking with my buddies before a game or on a Friday evening. Drinking isn't fun anymore. I don't have a beer to take it easy. I drink to get drunk, to feel something more than what I feel when I am sober...which is something I can't exactly put my finger on.
I'd blame being on the road alot, in fact I have used that excuse before to justify drinking alone in a hotel room or at a hotel bar by myself, but I now understand it doesn't matter where I am, who I am with and what I am doing...I constantly crave having a drink and once I get the first one, I need to the second and then the third...etc. I am up to about 12 beers just to catch a buzz and another 6 after that to feel good, happy, relaxed.
I often wonder how things got this bad and who I could blame. Well the answer is no one except myself for being so weak to let this one thing have total control over me. I also worry what kind of example I am setting for my children. Obviously not a good one.
Anyway, once again Lyle thanks for the perspective.
Mr. Vicodan:
I would encourage you to make contact with your local chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous. I'd also encourage you to find a physician who specializes in addiction treatment. In the end though, it is you who must decide deep down that you want to get better.
I would encourage you to make contact with your local chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous. I'd also encourage you to find a physician who specializes in addiction treatment. In the end though, it is you who must decide deep down that you want to get better.