Mid-air collision over Brasil

[FW-190]

I see that some people are trying, in all possible ways, to blame someone else instead of the Legacy pilots, although evidences indicate that it was their mistake that caused the disaster. Brazil is among the biggest countries in the world in number of civil planes, but it has one of the lowest rates of air accidents and crashes. We have skilled pilots, atc controllers, and a solid and trustable system of air control that covers all the very big brazilian territory.

The most relevant thing is that the Legacy pilots were FL37, when they had to be FL36. They were not flying in accordance with their flight plan, and they didn't get authorization to change it either. Even if they were flying without the help of transponders, TCAS and radios they would not crash if the were within their flight plan. The rule is universal and followed in all countries: if you can not contact the tower, just follow your flight plan.

But Brasilia and Manaus tried to contact them seven times - it's registered and proved - but got no response. Also, Legacy transponder suddenly started working after the crash, what leads me to conclude that it was turned off by the pilots before.

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by FW-190

evidences indicate that it was their mistake that caused the disaster.
...Also, Legacy transponder suddenly started working after the crash, what leads me to conclude that it was turned off by the pilots before.

No evidences so far, just quotes from people before the investigation has barely begun. People who may have a particular agenda.
See the AD regarding Honeywell transponders going to SBY uncommanded: http://www.tdatacorp.com/iaprch/06-19-04.htm - your "conclusion" is at best premature.

[flash8]

Originally Posted by FW-190

But Brasilia and Manaus tried to contact them seven times - it's registered and proved - but got no response. Also, Legacy transponder suddenly started working after the crash, what leads me to conclude that it was turned off by the pilots before.

This isn't the first time that u/s electronics have been "jolted" back into action after a midair. It has happened before, if I recall correctly the JAT DC9's CVR (Zagreb 1976) started functioning only after the collision with the BA Trident. It took the impact to put it back in action.

[westhawk]

Well... That was quite a first post FW-190!

Kindly post your proven facts. Media coverage does not qualify as proven. If you care to offer your opinion, that's fine. Some modicum of effort directed toward the goal of distinguishing fact from supposition and edited remarks from "officials" in your posts would serve you well and be appreciated by thoughtful forum participants.

Best regards,

Westhawk

[blackmail]

westhawk, hello,

from your previous posts, i can see you have good judgement & analysis capability.
i jump on the roof, when i read hysterical posts as fw190 above.
as many professionnals, i ' m not interested in blame games, that's for the justice departement to decide.
i am more interested in possible causes & remedial actions, as to prevent as much as possible future similar tragedies. hence until the final report we can only speculate & compare/modify possible scenarios as more & more details become available.

best regards,
bm

[barit1]

FW-190 takes the forum "Rumors & News" to mean just that - with little distinction between the two.

He surely cannot provide any substantiation at this stage of the investigation. Why bother to ask him?

[onetrack]

Originally Posted by FW-190

I see that some people are trying, in all possible ways, to blame someone else instead of the Legacy pilots, although evidences indicate that it was their mistake that caused the disaster. Brazil is among the biggest countries in the world in number of civil planes, but it has one of the lowest rates of air accidents and crashes. We have skilled pilots, atc controllers, and a solid and trustable system of air control that covers all the very big brazilian territory.
The most relevant thing is that the Legacy pilots were FL37, when they had to be FL36. They were not flying in accordance with their flight plan, and they didn't get authorization to change it either. Even if they were flying without the help of transponders, TCAS and radios they would not crash if the were within their flight plan. The rule is universal and followed in all countries: if you can not contact the tower, just follow your flight plan.
But Brasilia and Manaus tried to contact them seven times - it's registered and proved - but got no response. Also, Legacy transponder suddenly started working after the crash, what leads me to conclude that it was turned off by the pilots before.

FW190 - You, and a section of the Brazilian ATC, are indulging in unacceptable slurs by stating outright, without back-up evidence, that these pilots turned off their transponder. These guys are pro's, with many hours on their logs, they were certified to fly the Legacy, and they were approved by the owners and the builders of the BRAND NEW aircraft.
There is NOTHING that they were doing, in the aeroplane that could could be regarded as suspect .. as in drug-running .. unauthorised aerobatics, or any other illegal activity.
The American reporter has not reported that any loops, dives, or unauthorised activities took place .. as he surely would have, if they took place. Passengers would certainly have been warned, that aerobatics were going to take place, if the pilots were going to indulge in such antics ..

A filed flight level, is just what a flight initially proposes and this goes into planning by ATC for anticipated air traffic. However .. the filed level can be .. and frequently is .. changed, once the aircraft is en route .. according to other traffic that has be accommodated, weather, and also according to what the pilot may request.

Bottom line is .. ATC is responsible for guidance of aircraft, no matter where. Pilots have input, but the final responsibility lies wholly with ATC.
The critical factors in this case .. are that there was a change of level, coinciding with a change of ATC unit. Although the flightplan will show a change of level, the crew will not do this, until cleared by ATC.
Now, add in communication problems .. a possible transponder electrical fault (which you and some Brazilian sources, choose to ignore as a possible factor) .. and you have the stage set for disaster.

No-one has yet clarified what, if any attempts were made, to contact the 737-800, and warn of possible collision danger. Reports state, that panic set in, in the Brasilia ATC centre, when it was suddenly realised that the Legacy transponder was inoperative, and all eight people in that centre, were concentrating on trying to contact and track the Legacy.
In the resulting panic, it appears that the 737-800 was forgotten about, for long enough, for the collision to happen.
An AT controller removed from duty, with psychological problems, is an ominous sign that they realise, they are the primary responsible party, for the collision.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

onetrack

FW190 - You, and a section of the Brazilian ATC, are indulging in unacceptable slurs by stating outright, without back-up evidence, that these pilots turned off their transponder.

… whilst I may not wholly agree with what FW190 has written … what they actually said was

Also, Legacy transponder suddenly started working after the crash, what leads me to conclude that it was turned off by the pilots before.

… sounds like an opinion (which they are entitled to) rather than stating outright fact as you imply!!
.
.. could you point to the ‘unacceptable slurs' by a section of the Brazilian ATC’
.
.. now compare that to your words

A filed flight level, is just what a flight initially proposes and this goes into planning by ATC for anticipated air traffic. However .. the filed level can be .. and frequently is .. changed, once the aircraft is en route .. according to other traffic that has be accommodated, weather, and also according to what the pilot may request.
.
Bottom line is .. ATC is responsible for guidance of aircraft, no matter where.

.. are you aware (as any certified pilot would/should be) that radio fail procedures REQUIRE following planned level and route as per fight plan in the event of comm failure!! .. tis a FACT!

Pilots have input, but the final responsibility lies wholly with ATC.

.. who is writing unacceptable slurs??

The critical factors in this case .. are that there was a change of level, coinciding with a change of ATC unit. Although the flightplan will show a change of level, the crew will not do this, until cleared by ATC.
.
Now, add in communication problems .. a possible transponder electrical fault (which you and some Brazilian sources, choose to ignore as a possible factor) .. and you have the stage set for disaster.

.. no one is ignoring the TXPDR fault possibility!!
.
.. perhaps you might explain to us (from regulation) why the crew would not follow the hemispherical and flight planned level change during comm’s outage??
.
.. what else is a required item following comm outage?? .... TXPDR to 7600 .... would that have cleared the possible 'STBY fault' by selecting the radio fail code?? ... who knows, just more questions for the investigation!

No-one has yet clarified what, if any attempts were made, to contact the 737-800, and warn of possible collision danger.

… yes so lets wait and see what was said by whom to whom and why!!

Reports state, that panic set in, in the Brasilia ATC centre, when it was suddenly realised that the Legacy transponder was inoperative, and all eight people in that centre, were concentrating on trying to contact and track the Legacy.
In the resulting panic, it appears that the 737-800 was forgotten about, for long enough, for the collision to happen.

…. Unacceptable slurs .. you sir have it down to an art form … disgraceful!

An AT controller removed from duty, with psychological problems, is an ominous sign that they realise, they are the primary responsible party, for the collision.

… another 'unacceptable slur' based on no real knowledge of why this controller has been stood down from duty ….
.
.. if you had done everything right (lets assume), yet 154 people died after an ‘inexplicable’ mid-air collision on your sector ….. would you feel OK to go back to work as if nothing had happed??
.
…. Insensitive, hypocritical and unfair IMHO!!

[Loose rivets]

There has to be a specific threshold of signal-strength that will cause the transponder to ‘fire back' its response. What is known of the functioning range in this case?

I have always assumed that if a primary return could be seen, there would be plenty of signal to activate the transponder, but is this always the case?

I have assumed that the radar head was behind the smaller aircraft, but I'm not sure. Were they in line or at some other angle to the head?

[FW-190]

It seems that american press is not giving its readers too many informations. I'm not making a personal investigation about what happenened. I'm not talking about "rumours". A guy above said the "investigation barely begun". I suppose he's joking. Everything I said was reported in the last days by brazilian authorities, that, if you don't know, are having their work followed by members of Embraer, Boeing and american FAA. And, obviously, since the investigations are not concluded, we can only have opinions and conclusions about some aspects of the accident.

But yes, brazilian authorities are convinced that Legacy pilots were responsible for the crash. Here is a yesterday link to Estadao, probably Brazil's most trustable and respected newspaper (sorry, it is in portuguese): http://www.estadao.com.br/ultimas/ci.../out/07/93.htm

Another guy on this page said that "Media coverage does not qualify as proven". He's right. And when we hear from serious media, they make it clear that they are talking about hypothesis, but when the hypothesis are proven after investigation, it becomes a fact - for example, the Legacy on FL37 instead of FL36. Also, the seven occasions Brasília and Manaus tried to contact the Legacy but got no replies, it's there on the records, proved as well!

Unfortunately, it is clear to me after some agressive posts - a guy even called me "hysterical", how great, first time I'm called that way in my whole life - that, in fact, most of you do not want to debate and clarify things. You just want to believe and make sure to deny the possibility of an american pilot making a stupid mistake and killing 154 people in another country skies.

I don't have anything to add here anymore. Sorry to disturb your factual discussion.

[Oceanz]

I have been following this thread as a non-pro and the (non-judgemental) question I would like to ask:

Wouldn't the Legacy at some stage prior to the MAC have expected to have had some contact with ATC about the FL change? And if so, wouldn't they have become aware at this stage if there was a comms failure/blackspot problem?

[westhawk]

Originally Posted by blackmail

i ' m not interested in blame games

Agreed! I prefer to think anyone reading this entire thread from beginning to end would agree that the majority of posters share in this view.

Originally Posted by barit1

Why bother to ask him?

Just a hope that it will inspire some standards pertaining to the quality of information used to support his conclusions I suppose. And a challenge to the guy that he do better with his second post. This is a tough room and we must try to be at our best!

Best,

Westhawk

[ATC Watcher]

Originally Posted by onetrack

In the resulting panic, .......
An AT controller removed from duty, with psychological problems, is an ominous sign that they realise, they are the primary responsible party, for the collision.

Onetrack , you obviously are not an aviation professional, I hope you are not working in the Governement or Justice department, because with pre set opinions like this

You obviously have no idea how ATC works.

[blackmail]

gol collision

sorry, if i called fw190 "hysterical", but his first post was so provocative in the first place.but, ok, so i take that back & lets remain civilized.
but fw190 seems to believe what's in the newspapers, maybe not realizing that those journo's are only out on sensationalism for their own benefit of selling more copys.
i hope, the authorities, except maybe some highranking military brass, will be more factual in their methods & conclusions.

[onetrack]

ATC watcher - I know precisely how ATC works .. and maybe you should repeat slowly to yourself ... Air ... Traffic ... Control ..
Maybe I'm missing something here .. but I understood that essentially, ATC's job is to provide guidance to, and separation between aircraft, to prevent collision between them, or terra firma. There has been a MAC, which indicates a failure of ATC. How much simpler do you want it?

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/air-traffic-control.htm

A simple schematic of the flights, showing the Cindacta coverage .. for those who enquired .. http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/especi...2909/index.htm

The main area under question, of course, is the reason the pilots flew North on the Manaus leg at FL370. They reported that they believed they did this with Cindacta 1 approval. The fact that this does not jell with the flight plan lodged, is puzzling, and I am not going to speculate on the reason, or reasons. No doubt, this week will provide that answer, or answers.
One source claims that an airplane over Brazil CAN fly at the "wrong" FL if there is no conflicting traffic and if cleared by ATC. I cannot verify this, but this seems like a contradiction to the recent Nth/Sth, odd/even, FL separation that Brazil introduced.

Scurvy Dawg - The Brazilian media produced this report .. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04331952.htm .. in which this quote is found .. "We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday ..

So .. who's casting the slurs here?? .. this guy (head of the Brazil AA, note) KNOWS for sure, the transponder was TURNED OFF .. long before even any preliminary investigation is completed ..

The haste to judge the pilots as totally at fault, has transferred to the prosecutor as well .. perhaps he sees some personal glory in this .. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/4243652.html

I am neither insensitive, nor hypocritical, nor unfair. The AT Controller has been removed, and I feel for that person. However, the fact that they have been removed surely indicates that overwhelming guilt and the usually resultant depression set in on this person.
That only happens, once someone realises that they have failed in the proper execution of their highly-responsible job, and people have died as a result. It has happened with ATC's before, and no doubt it will happen again. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

Maybe the factor that will never be investigated .. but needs to be .. is the military control of civil airspace in Brazil. As has been noted before, military people are trained to push everything to the limit, and take extreme risks. Civilian trainees, particularly where pax are concerned, are trained, to never take risks. Whether this conflict comes up, in Brazilian ATC, is a point that maybe needs serious examination.

Despite FW190's reassurances .. ATC in Brazil has failed, this time .. in the worst possible way. Careful examination of all features of Brazilian ATC is now warranted to find the weak points.
As is noted in construction and mining industries .. despite extreme safety cultures being instigated .. there is a "risk-taking" mentality, that still exists amongst a small section of employees and managers .. which leads to fatalities. Whether that same mentality exists in Brazilian ATC needs to be examined as part of the accident investigation process.

[Tarq57]

Originally posted by onetrack

I am neither insensitive, nor hypocritical, nor unfair. The AT Controller has been removed, and I feel for that person. However, the fact that they have been removed surely indicates that overwhelming guilt and the usually resultant depression set in on this person

Removal, or being stood down from duty, following a major incident is normal, indeed, desirable. For an incident of this magnitude, essential. It does not indicate guilt or otherwise. It is a recognition that the person involved is likely to be too upset to objectively assess whether they are capable of working or not, even if they wanted to.
You obviously do not realize "precisely how ATC works.."
If you did, you wouldn't write that.

[Flagon]

However, the fact that they have been removed surely indicates that overwhelming guilt and the usually resultant depression set in on this person.

- you display a gross lack of knowledge of human reaction to tragedy. Whether or not the ATC system was at fault, to be 'in the seat' when 155 human beings are killed in a mid-air collision REQUIRES the removal of the controller to allow the shock, horror and any understandable self-doubt to be dealt with away from a work environment.

[westhawk]

Originally Posted by Oceanz

I have been following this thread as a non-pro and the (non-judgemental) question I would like to ask:

Wouldn't the Legacy at some stage prior to the MAC have expected to have had some contact with ATC about the FL change? And if so, wouldn't they have become aware at this stage if there was a comms failure/blackspot problem?

That's one of the big questions, Oceanz. We await the release of information from the investigating authorities regarding the CVR, FDR and ATC data records. No word yet on how long before they are prepared to do so.

I would presume that they would wish to time-correlate all the recorded data and attempt to re-construct events from there. That is just my supposition based upon my understanding of investigative techniques used in past investigations.

One might also suppose that extensive testing would be required on any aircraft and ATC equipment related to the performance of communication and RADAR identification functions.

In the end, it must be hoped that enough objective data exist to re-construct the complete chain of events that day. How completely will of course depend upon the quality and quantity of recoverable objective data. Participant recollections are generally considered non-objective, but may be useful to the investigation nonetheless.

Determination of criminal liability is a separate matter which is dependant on much of the same data as the accident investigation. I have very little idea how the rules of evidence and standard of proof might be applied under Brazillian law to determine whether charges are filed against individuals involved in an air accident. Not my forte!

Not only do I have the same interest and curiosity as most people here do regarding the factors related to accident chain from the standpoint of an aviator, I am also concerned about the legal process as it relates to the status and disposition of the Legacy flightcrew. I make no suppositions on that subject. We'll just have wait and watch how that goes. I hope enough data quickly become available to justice officials for them to make a timely determination regarding any potential charges.

Best regards,

Westhawk

[fyrefli]

Originally Posted by onetrack

The American reporter has not reported that any loops, dives, or unauthorised activities took place .. as he surely would have, if they took place. Passengers would certainly have been warned, that aerobatics were going to take place, if the pilots were going to indulge in such antics.

Considering the s**tstorm that would have broken out if he had said these things, I hardly think his failure to do so can be taken as evidence in support or denial of anything.

Cheers,

Rich.

[Blues&twos]

Originally Posted by onetrack

There has been a MAC, which indicates a failure of ATC. How much simpler do you want it?

"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday .. ...this guy (head of the Brazil AA, note) KNOWS for sure, the transponder was TURNED OFF .. long before even any preliminary investigation is completed ..

I have a few questions about these statements - in a hypothetical situation if ATC have followed their protocols, attempted to contact both aircraft, or were unaware fully of a/c positions owing to xpdr(s) being off would that be a "failure of ATC"? Or am I interpreting what you mean by ATC incorrectly? (I.e. you mean ATC as a description for what happens rather than the guys who make it happen, if you get my drift).

Do we know the xpdr was TURNED off implying deliberate action by the Legacy crew, or do we just know it was inoperative as has been suggested? There is a world of difference between the two and that difference is very important.

How would anyone know the xpdr was turned off before the preliminary investigation??? Isn't that normally called a guess?