Mid-air collision over Brasil

[fepate]

Originally Posted by Astra driver

This brings up an interesting question; what if we had also experienced a loss of communications as well as a loss of mode C capability? Lost comm procedures dictate maintaining altitude as per clearance or flight plan to the FAF at the destination, but loss of RVSM capablity dicatates exiting RVSM airspace and changing altitude.

Actually, to monkey things up further, step #1 in lost comm procedures is that if you're in VMC then you maintain VFR and land.

[FlyVMO]

broadreach-
Thanks for the update. I realize the odds may be against finding such a small object on a scene like this, lets hope they do though. Every bit of insight into this is worth so much.

Glad to see tempers seem to have cooled a bit in here.

Flyvmo

[G4G5]

Originally Posted by Hokie Nation

Ive known one of the pilots for six years and trained with him at two different airlines, and I know that he was trying to communicate with anyone on many differnet freqs, including Guard.

Just curious how this is possible, the captain has been with Excelair for quite sometime. The FO was hired by AA as an MD80 FO in early 2000. Then in Mar of 2004 he went onto AA Eagle as a Captain.

Were you a captain at American and an FO at Eagle? That would make in 28 when he was hired at AA, and you worked with him at 2 airlines prior to that?

Not trying to be sarcastic, it's just that the math doesn't work. He's been with AA for the past 6 years.

[bubbers44]

.1 R seems like a logical method to avoid head on conflicts. I always thought messing with the primary nav was dangerous because of possibility of error. I think a simple mode to offset would be beneficial. Forgetting a decimal point or an error could cause more conflict. Maybe having an enroute mode would make it simple and automatic so no possible operator errors would be a problem.

[bubbers44]

The FO probably worked at other airlines before AA. Hope he comes home soon. Happy I don't fly any more. He doesn't deserve this. He was probably doing everything in his power to reestablish com with Brazil and couldn't. Their ATC failed and that is where the blame should lie.

[Wino]

G4G5
Yes, the FO worked at other airlines before he was hired at AA.


Cheers
Wino

[bubbers44]

fepate

Where would you land VFR in the middle of a country that has little civilization? I have been there. I am very happy I didn't have to diivert.

[jondc9]

so, now that the thread is repeating itself:


what was the wx at the time of communiations failure?(to remain VMC and land) had the legacy crew been warned to expect an area of no vhf com? (notam, chart marking, previous com?)

If brazil uses airborne radar, and radio waves being line of sight at radar and radio freqs being used, how come LEGACy could be seen on skin paint radar but not heard by airborne radar plane? Don't they monitor 121.5 (G)

if the f/o on legacy was trying to contact anyone and failing, how come the captain left the flight deck?

does the CVR show that the f/o was trying to contact anyone including another plane for relay? did he try to "listen" on a vor while transmitting on another freq? (note, it appears that brazilia VOR does not have voice capability, chart I am using, downloaded, is hard to read, but underline on freq = no voice)

does the Legacy in question have a sat phone?


why didn't the legacy try squawking 7600?


quite a few inconsistencies? you be the judge.

and if f/o was hired by american airlines in 2000 and says he has been with them for 6 years, he is counting his furlough time, no big deal there, especially as he was bounced into Eagle.

jon

[fepate]

Originally Posted by bubbers44

fepate
Where would you land VFR in the middle of a country that has little civilization? I have been there. I am very happy I didn't have to diivert.

First of all, I was responding to someone's hypothetical scenario over the USA. But, since you brought it up, wasn't it reported that the Legacy pilots spotted the air force base at which they landed visually? Whether or not that's true it doesn't matter. VFR is just a set of rules to help you see and avoid IFR traffic, it says nothing about how you navigate to your intended point of landing.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

bubbers44

He was probably doing everything in his power to reestablish com with Brazil and couldn't.

.. quite possibly .. do we know that yet though?? …. And if so, isn’t that a comm./radio fail condition?? … which invokes what requirements on the crew??

Their ATC failed and that is where the blame should lie.

… care to explain why only ATC might be to blame ??!
.
Tis all very easy in hindsight ... eh … !!

[vapilot2004]

Originally Posted by G4G5

The FO was hired by AA as an MD80 FO in early 2000. Then in Mar of 2004 he went onto AA Eagle as a Captain.
.........................it's just that the math doesn't work. He's been with AA for the past 6 years.

Why did I hear (from a former co-worker of his) that the guy was typed in the A300 and flew them for AA ?

Nice to see some reason starting to settle in. Brazil is not such an unsophisticated place as some of us are discovering. While here in the states we are beholden to the Middle East and elsewhere for 60% of our oil needs, just this year Brazil became energy independant thanks to a decades old commitment to ethanol.

[Kleer4tkof]

Crewing of the Legacy

Does anyone know why Embraer did not supply qualified and experienced crew to transport this aircraft to New York?
Please advise.
Thank you.

[Bamse01]

Originally Posted by Scurvy.D.Dog

bubbers44 .. quite possibly .. do we know that yet though?? …. And if so, isn’t that a comm./radio fail condition?? … which invokes what requirements on the crew?? … care to explain why only ATC might be to blame ??!
.
Tis all very easy in hindsight ... eh … !!

If you lose contact with ATC over Brasil, I would be more inclined to
believe equipment/range problems on the ground than aircraft equipment.
I certainly wouldn't descend VFR looking to land rather then waiting
to be in range of the next center controller or trying to relay through
other flights.

[threemiles]

Originally Posted by Bamse01

I certainly wouldn't descend VFR looking to land rather then waiting
to be in range of the next center controller or trying to relay through
other flights.

...and after seven successful minutes of trying get out of my flight level where I might expect opposite same level traffic, is that what you mean?

[Bamse01]

Originally Posted by threemiles

...and after seven successful minutes of trying get out of my flight level where I might expect opposite same level traffic, is that what you mean?

Offset 1/2 mile off track might help.

[S. Dumont]

Originally Posted by Hokie Nation

Finally someone has stated something that is correct. The Legacy crew did exactly as they should have. Ive known one of the pilots for six years and trained with him at two different airlines, and I know that he was trying to communicate with anyone on many differnet freqs, including Guard. The CVR has this on tape, and no, there was not seven attempts on the CVR from Cindacta-1 (Brasilia), that is innacurate. Both of us are type rated on the Legacy, and the NORDO procedure is to STAY at your last assigned altitude...370...and squawk 7600. The Legacy has a rotary transponder and the AD applies to this transponder unfortunately. If they changed the squawk to 7600, and it does sometimes take at least 5 secs to get there, esp if its a bumpy ride, that would explain 'turning off the xpndr'. Nonetheless, it doesnt seem that Brazil even KNOWS their procedures, much less follows any. Consider this, IF they thought the xpndr was 'turned off', then the Legacy no longer qualifies as an RVSM, and now needs 2,000 alt separation, so why did Cindacta-1 even try to clear them to FL360? By their own admission, the Legacy was a non RVSM aircraft so that is NOT legal separation criteria. FL360 doesnt even make sense as the 737 would need to go through FL360 en route to Brasilia where they were landing and they would have AGAIN been nose to nose, coaltitude at some point. The only logical altitude to clear the Legacy would be FL390, so their own response indicates their incompetence. One phone call to Cindacta-4 (Amazonica) would have avoided all of this in reality. Why was the 737 even cleared to FL370 when the Legacy was already there on an overlapping airway (UZ6) before the 737 took off? So much easier to blame US citizens than your own banana republic military buffoons. This situation will happen AGAIN if they dont learn procedures and buy some new equipment. Hopefully those guys will be home and exonerated soon.

Hookie Nation,

I'm a pilot from Brazil, but I lived in the US for quite a while. Unfortunately your post shows exactly the attitude that makes people don't like Americans. When my countrymates said bad things about the US, I tell them not to generalize just because of a "few bad apples".

I would expect a little bit more respect from you in regard to the "Banana Republic" or the military involved in the situation. You claimed to very updated with the actual facts of the event. So if you don't mind, I would like to draw a few notes.

1. The American pilots are in no way arrested. They are staying with their wives in a 5-Star JW Marriott hotel in front of Copacabana beach. They have the freedom to go wherever they want and do whatever they feel like as long as they remain in the country. I'm sure they would rather be home, but this becomes necessary when there is a CHANCE (again, a chance, not a fact) of negligence in their action. I would expect the same if this (God forbid) happened in the US. I'm just not sure if the pilots would be in a decent conditions like the Americans are.

2. DCT PCL UW2 BRS/N0450F360 UZ6 TERES/N0449F380 UZ6 MAN DCT. That is what their FPL says on route. The MAC point is close to 400NM from BRS. Let's speculate (again, speculate) that the aircraft Legacy (and not "the Americans" per se as a lot of people refer, since they are being held regardless of being US citizens or citizens from Ghana or even Brazil) after passing BRS were instructed to descent to FL360. So according to your claim, they were not instructed to descent to FL360 over BRS, right? OK. Moving on.
After TERES, and before the MAC location, they were supposed to climb to FL380.
Let me quote our friend "PPRuNe Radar" on the ICAO (and not FAA, since they are only valid for the US of A) instructions.

>
b) in airspace where radar is used in the provision of air traffic control, maintain the last assigned speed and level, or minimum flight altitude if higher, for a period of 7 minutes following:
1) the time the last assigned level or minimum flight altitude is reached; or
2) the time the transponder is set to Code 7600; or
3) the aircraft’s failure to report its position over a compulsory reporting point;
whichever is later, and thereafter adjust level and speed in accordance with the filed flight plan;
<

Even in my speculations, I find it hard to put it together what the aircraft was doing on FL370 if 400NM before they were supposed to have descended to FL360. Let's then suppose that they were out of communications in BRS and have not received that instructions to descent to FL360. Then 7 minutes later, they would proceed as on the FPL, which instructed them to descent to FL360 and then later on to 380. I find a little hard for the aircraft to have gone 400nm in 7 minutes. Please correct me I'm wrong. I don't claim a COMM failure is impossible. And I'm not claiming that ATC did try contact, unlike you are stating. What I am questioning is my normal sense, what was the ACFT doing on FL370. Perhaps I'm just missing something in here. Enlighten me.

3. The XPDR was not on the batch directed by the AD. It has been stated by several sources that the transponder fitted on N600XL was not in the batch directed by the AD, or in other words, it was suposedly (again.. suposedly. avionics malfunction can happen regardless of ADs) working ok. In any way, right after the collision the transponder went on, surprisingly. After landing, it was concluded that both XPDR and TCAS were working ok. My sources (indeed I have sources) indicate (indicate is different than state) that the Legacy XPDR turned C mode off 15 minutes before the collision.

4. CVRs and FDRs don't lie. Both the Legacy's CVR & FDR and the 738 FDR are in Canada for evaluation. If indeed the Legacy pilots did not do anything wrong, then there is no need to worry. In Brazil we have a saying that poorly translated says: "If you don't owe anything to anyone, there is no reason to worry". If the pilots are so aware that they did everythign right, then just rest assured that nothing is going to happen to them because they have the FDR and CVRs on their side. Just enjoy Copacabana beach. Brazil is a democratic country and nobody is going to arrest those pilots if the FDR/CVRs show that they were not wrong. If it is perhaps concluded that it was ATC error, than that is going to come up. CVR/FDRs and ATC recordings don't lie.

5. UZ6 outbound from Brasilia is westbound. According to basic ICAO rules, the proper flight level for the Legacy would be either 360 or 380, as it was stated on the FPL. If ATC indeed cleared them to FL370 on UZ6, then it will come up and appropriate measures will be taken to the responsible person.

6. I have a flight safety and accident investigation course made by CENIPA, the military flight safety and investigation institute. In the course ethics code it clearly state that their role is not to determine blame, but to point contributing factors to the accident so it does not happen again. The so-called "Banana Republic military buffons" are the ones that are doing everything possible not to blame anyone, at least until more details are official. If you are able to find any active duty military involved in the accident investigation blaming the US pilot, please let me know. If the press is blaming X or Y, I trust your judgment to filter what information if to be used and what is not.

7. I do agree that this could've been avoidable by a simple ATC alert to the 738 to offset or to change FL. But as you might now, an accident is a chain of events. Unfortunetly.

I understand one of the involved pilots was your friend and that emotions play a role in this situation. But please think twice before making such comments because you might offend a lot of people. Instead blaming, thank God that your friend is alive. And pray for the 154 souls that perished that day for God knows why.

I'll be glad to move this discussion forward, with a healthy and educated tone.

Fly safe and have a good day.

[G4G5]

Originally Posted by Wino

G4G5
Yes, the FO worked at other airlines before he was hired at AA.
Cheers
Wino

I figured that he did but the author is claiming to have known him for the past 6 year and flown with him at 2 airlines.

He has been at AMR for the past 6 years (AA as an fo and Eagle as a capt), so it doesn't make sence to me.

[bubbers44]

I have been out of ATC VHF range so many times and just continued on my flight plan so many times with no problem. Our company said we should go to HF and establish communications in the Carribean but found that to not work so didn't bother any more. Being out of com range down south becomes the norm so don't think these pilots did anything out of the ordinary. Hope they get back ok.

[piombo]

Originally Posted by Kleer4tkof

Does anyone know why Embraer did not supply qualified and experienced crew to transport this aircraft to New York?
Please advise.
Thank you.

Because Embraer is not an airline. Crewing is airline business and if the buyer provide their pilots, it is for the buyer to be concerned with these pilots experience.

[Rippa]

Originally Posted by bubbers44

...so don't think these pilots did anything out of the ordinary...

Bubbers44,

Yes they did...they didnt comply with the ICAO standard rules.