Mid-air collision over Brasil
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They are designed to withstand virtually all aspects of potential destruction in even the worst type of severe crash .. and since tape devices have given way to solid state devices, the info is even more recoverable ..
They are designed to withstand salt water for 30 days .. extreme pressures .. and extreme temperatures .. that are beyond the maximum found in any known aircraft crash.
They are designed to withstand salt water for 30 days .. extreme pressures .. and extreme temperatures .. that are beyond the maximum found in any known aircraft crash.
@ Lenstrad
It is indeed possible that GOL crew had some control after collision but, sadly, there are two more common causes for finding large pieces of airframe at crash site: 1) hitting the ground in flat spin, 2) inflight airframe failure. But let's not speculate, it's better to wait for black boxes to tell their story.
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Data from Legacy´s recorders reveals seven contact attempts by controllers.
Since most people here isn´t familiar with the secret code we call language (Portuguese), and that those automatic translators at times get to provide results that are a bit scary, to say the least, I´ve tried to summarize one of "O Globo"´s articles from today.
O Globo is the major newspaper in Rio de Janeiro state and one of the most influential in the country. It is part of a media conglomerate by the same name.
The article says the investigators´ team has crossed the data between Cindacta 1 (Brasilia) and the Legacy´s black box. According to the newspaper the flight controllers made seven attempts to contact the Legacy and those attempts were recorded by the box. Investigation has found that Cindacta 1 lost contact with the Legacy for almost one hour. There was normal communication between the controllers and the aircraft until Brasilia. Roughly ten minutes after that, the controllers noticed that Legacy´s transponder was innoperative. The equipment went back on only after the collision, around 5 p.m. The pilot then issued an alert and contacted Cindacta 4 (Manaus) asking for instructions for an emergency landing which took place at Serra do Cachimbo´s Air Force base.
It is mentioned that the authorities came to the conclusion that Legacy´s pilot would have turned off the transponder and remained at 37,000 feet in disaccordance with the flight plan. However, the Air Force will not issue any statement until the contents of Gol´s black boxes are analysed. No malfunction in the jet´s equipment was found.
The article goes on describing the Legacy´s transponder device, saying it has a backup system that should automatically become operational, had the main system failed, but that the transponder has to be turned on for it to happen. The innocurance of a back up system activation would reinforce the possibility of the equipment being turned off at the time of the collision.
One question that remains to be answered, according to the reporter is why Gol´s pilot wasn´t warned of the presence of another aircraft in the vicinity that wasn´t asnwering Cindacta´s calls. The Cindacta 1 controllers are to be heard by the police this monday.
The pilots lawyer, former Ministry of Justice José Carlos Dias (as a former lawyer myself, I´d say it´s about the best money can buy) denies the pilots were conducting in flight tests and that both pilots had previously flown on that type of aircraft in the US. He says that, according to the pilots, the transponder was on at the time of the impact and didn´t want to comment at what flight level they were, saying that it was a controversial issue. The pilots reamain in Rio de Janeiro on an unknown place under the American Consulate assistance.
Hope this has been useful to some.
Hugs.
Cesar.
O Globo is the major newspaper in Rio de Janeiro state and one of the most influential in the country. It is part of a media conglomerate by the same name.
The article says the investigators´ team has crossed the data between Cindacta 1 (Brasilia) and the Legacy´s black box. According to the newspaper the flight controllers made seven attempts to contact the Legacy and those attempts were recorded by the box. Investigation has found that Cindacta 1 lost contact with the Legacy for almost one hour. There was normal communication between the controllers and the aircraft until Brasilia. Roughly ten minutes after that, the controllers noticed that Legacy´s transponder was innoperative. The equipment went back on only after the collision, around 5 p.m. The pilot then issued an alert and contacted Cindacta 4 (Manaus) asking for instructions for an emergency landing which took place at Serra do Cachimbo´s Air Force base.
It is mentioned that the authorities came to the conclusion that Legacy´s pilot would have turned off the transponder and remained at 37,000 feet in disaccordance with the flight plan. However, the Air Force will not issue any statement until the contents of Gol´s black boxes are analysed. No malfunction in the jet´s equipment was found.
The article goes on describing the Legacy´s transponder device, saying it has a backup system that should automatically become operational, had the main system failed, but that the transponder has to be turned on for it to happen. The innocurance of a back up system activation would reinforce the possibility of the equipment being turned off at the time of the collision.
One question that remains to be answered, according to the reporter is why Gol´s pilot wasn´t warned of the presence of another aircraft in the vicinity that wasn´t asnwering Cindacta´s calls. The Cindacta 1 controllers are to be heard by the police this monday.
The pilots lawyer, former Ministry of Justice José Carlos Dias (as a former lawyer myself, I´d say it´s about the best money can buy) denies the pilots were conducting in flight tests and that both pilots had previously flown on that type of aircraft in the US. He says that, according to the pilots, the transponder was on at the time of the impact and didn´t want to comment at what flight level they were, saying that it was a controversial issue. The pilots reamain in Rio de Janeiro on an unknown place under the American Consulate assistance.
Hope this has been useful to some.
Hugs.
Cesar.
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There's still the possiblity that the pilots thought they had the transponder turned on, but there was a switch problem etc, as mentioned previously.
However it would be interesting to know why ATC tried 7 times to contact the Legacy and failed, even though the black box (CVR I assume) recorded the attempts. I don't know how accurate the article is in discribing the events, but the circumstances as discribed don't sound very good. If ATC calls are on the CVR and the pilots failed to respond, that would not be good at all. We'll have to wait for more authoritative details.
Does anyone know if radio communications are problematic in this area (sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm in a hurry to post this, I have a flight to catch)?
However it would be interesting to know why ATC tried 7 times to contact the Legacy and failed, even though the black box (CVR I assume) recorded the attempts. I don't know how accurate the article is in discribing the events, but the circumstances as discribed don't sound very good. If ATC calls are on the CVR and the pilots failed to respond, that would not be good at all. We'll have to wait for more authoritative details.
Does anyone know if radio communications are problematic in this area (sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm in a hurry to post this, I have a flight to catch)?
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if the tx in the legacy were set to TA only...if indeed such a mode exists on that equipment, then i would have recieved a TA, but the 737 would still have recieved an RA
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Sims Fly Virtually
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All through the last few days, reading these 17 pages, I keep thinking of the pax on the 73 and the terror they must have experienced in an aircraft breaking/broken up and heading for the ground. How long would they have been conscious after decompression? Must have been horrible for them - hopefully not for too long.
God be with them.
(Mods, if you think this post is not appropriate on a "public" forum, I understand)
God be with them.
(Mods, if you think this post is not appropriate on a "public" forum, I understand)
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Kinda wonder if the 737 didnt experience an upset and breakup resulting from overloading during the attempted recovery while performing an evasive manuever..kind of hard to imagine that winglet inflicting enough damage to render the aircraft unflyable..
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'cause it wouldn't happen to a scarebus........
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think a jet upset can occur in any type of airplane, although in theory I would imagine it could not be pilot-induced.. might be impossible to overstress the airframe during recovery guess if the wingtip did strike a "soft spot" could have caused airframe failure to the 737...time will tell...
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A wannabie asked some good questions regarding cleared vs filed flight levels a few pages back.
If your filed flight plan called for a level change, would you do so without clearance if you had lost contact with ATC?
I wouldn't. Not if I thought the loss of contact was due to poor coverage.
I would change altitude without a clearance if I was sure I had suffered a comm failure, but that is a different issue than a loss of contact. In most cases, anyway.
As for switching the transponder off/on, what if they did have an intermittent transponder? Poor connection? The mid air could have fixed that. Just a different version of "a technical knock".
Regarding offsets, I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the Jepps text (ATC) manual, that we are allowed to offset 2 NM to the right in areas with limited radio/radar coverage.
Maybe somebody can confirm or deny this?
If your filed flight plan called for a level change, would you do so without clearance if you had lost contact with ATC?
I wouldn't. Not if I thought the loss of contact was due to poor coverage.
I would change altitude without a clearance if I was sure I had suffered a comm failure, but that is a different issue than a loss of contact. In most cases, anyway.
As for switching the transponder off/on, what if they did have an intermittent transponder? Poor connection? The mid air could have fixed that. Just a different version of "a technical knock".
Regarding offsets, I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the Jepps text (ATC) manual, that we are allowed to offset 2 NM to the right in areas with limited radio/radar coverage.
Maybe somebody can confirm or deny this?
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without it in front of me cant state the details, but yes the track-offset procedure is detailed in the atc section of the supplemental text section...
Pegase Driver
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An animation video of one of the hypothesis of the collision :
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,IIF661-5598,00.html
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,IIF661-5598,00.html
Just curious - has this been reported anywhere? I thought the Legacy crew had said they didn't see the 737 at all, just "a shadow". The report released by the journalist on board the Legacy also doesn't mention any evasive manoeuvers, just a "terrific jolt".
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gol collision
hello every one,
let's make some more hypothesis of this catastrophic event
1) the legacy crew: was well aware of a required flightlevel change after brasilia vor/dme. unable to contact atc for whatever reason: unknown temporary blackhole effect,fingertrouble with their comm radio(s), wrong frequency, intermittent elec failure, anything... . INITIALLY, rightfully maintained their last cleared & acknowledged flightlevel. they were defacto in a commfailure situation for about an hour until the collision & there is indeed an icao procedure to cover this event( in simplified version) : maintain your last acknowledged fl FOR 7 MINUTES(to allow time for atc to coordinate other traffic)THEN ADJUST LEVEL ACCORDING TO YOUR FILED FLIGHT PLAN & follow your filed flightplanned route until over your destination, then land within 30minutes.
the legacy crew instinctively followed this procedure(you dont change fl without atc authorisation), but maybe lacked the situational awareness that they were in a full blown emergency comm. failure situation. and here we come to the heart of the matter: if no radiocontact can be established: put your transponder on 7600(radiofail code) & X CHECK IF THE BLOODY THING IS WORKING/REPLYING(no amber fail/caution light on). then check your comm radios/audioboxes,mikes,boommikes circuitbreakers, qrh commfailure etc.
then, if you are satisfied your equipment is ok, start tranmitting blind on the worldwide emergency frequency 121.5 in order to raise someone on the frequency. all atc centers monitor this & most airline companies have it as a policy to monitor 121.5 on their comm n°2, during cruise. as a last resort, although not an official procedure, go 1nmRight offset of the awy. look up your jeppesen emergency radio comm. section to check what else you can do.( the 7 minutes period is mentioned in this section).& yes, put the mark one eyeball in full alert.
but, i am the first to admit, with hindsight it is easier said than done.
now brasilian atc: complete inadequate behavior. after one hour & about seven unsuccessfull calls to the legacy, plus transponder returns off screen, should have realised the legacy had some major technical problems with all their radios & should have taken emergency measures to redirect all possible conflicting traffic e.g the gol 737,away from the legacy. even scramble some fighters to go up & have a look.
conclusion: here we have, as always in such cases, a chain of human/procedural errors, coupled with an electronic box(transponder), that, at a critical time, didn't work as advertised, resulting in the fatal collision.
everyone involved in this tragic accident share some degree of responsibility.
i hope the trial will be fair, but i am afraid that might be wishfull thinking.
ps. about that legacy transponder AD(going in sby if tuned for more than 5secs), this being a brand new aircraft leaving the factory on a delivery flight, one may think this was complied with by the manufacturer.
let's make some more hypothesis of this catastrophic event
1) the legacy crew: was well aware of a required flightlevel change after brasilia vor/dme. unable to contact atc for whatever reason: unknown temporary blackhole effect,fingertrouble with their comm radio(s), wrong frequency, intermittent elec failure, anything... . INITIALLY, rightfully maintained their last cleared & acknowledged flightlevel. they were defacto in a commfailure situation for about an hour until the collision & there is indeed an icao procedure to cover this event( in simplified version) : maintain your last acknowledged fl FOR 7 MINUTES(to allow time for atc to coordinate other traffic)THEN ADJUST LEVEL ACCORDING TO YOUR FILED FLIGHT PLAN & follow your filed flightplanned route until over your destination, then land within 30minutes.
the legacy crew instinctively followed this procedure(you dont change fl without atc authorisation), but maybe lacked the situational awareness that they were in a full blown emergency comm. failure situation. and here we come to the heart of the matter: if no radiocontact can be established: put your transponder on 7600(radiofail code) & X CHECK IF THE BLOODY THING IS WORKING/REPLYING(no amber fail/caution light on). then check your comm radios/audioboxes,mikes,boommikes circuitbreakers, qrh commfailure etc.
then, if you are satisfied your equipment is ok, start tranmitting blind on the worldwide emergency frequency 121.5 in order to raise someone on the frequency. all atc centers monitor this & most airline companies have it as a policy to monitor 121.5 on their comm n°2, during cruise. as a last resort, although not an official procedure, go 1nmRight offset of the awy. look up your jeppesen emergency radio comm. section to check what else you can do.( the 7 minutes period is mentioned in this section).& yes, put the mark one eyeball in full alert.
but, i am the first to admit, with hindsight it is easier said than done.
now brasilian atc: complete inadequate behavior. after one hour & about seven unsuccessfull calls to the legacy, plus transponder returns off screen, should have realised the legacy had some major technical problems with all their radios & should have taken emergency measures to redirect all possible conflicting traffic e.g the gol 737,away from the legacy. even scramble some fighters to go up & have a look.
conclusion: here we have, as always in such cases, a chain of human/procedural errors, coupled with an electronic box(transponder), that, at a critical time, didn't work as advertised, resulting in the fatal collision.
everyone involved in this tragic accident share some degree of responsibility.
i hope the trial will be fair, but i am afraid that might be wishfull thinking.
ps. about that legacy transponder AD(going in sby if tuned for more than 5secs), this being a brand new aircraft leaving the factory on a delivery flight, one may think this was complied with by the manufacturer.
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The Associated Press
Pilots Involved in Brazil Air Disaster Deny Turning off Communications Device
The American pilots of an executive jet involved in a deadly high-altitude collision with a Boeing 737 have denied they turned off the transponder that signaled their location, authorities said Thursday.
Pilots Joseph Lepore, of Bay Shore, N.Y., and Jan Paladino, of Westhampton Beach, N.Y., repeatedly told investigators they never turned off the device that transmits a plane's location and believed that it was working just before the collision, said Denise Niederauer, a spokeswoman for the Mato Grosso do Sul State Public Safety Department.
Brazilian authorities suggested a day earlier that the pilots may have turned off the device.
Authorities did not say why they believed that may have happened, but said a nonfunctioning transponder was a possible cause of the collision with Gol Airlines Flight 1907, which plunged into the Amazon jungle Friday, killing all 154 aboard in Brazil's worst air disaster. Gol initially had said there were 155 aboard, but on Thursday changed it to 154, blaming a mistake on the passenger list. The airline said a name had appeared twice on the list.
"They didn't turn anything off," Jose Carlos Dias, the pilots' lawyer, told Globo TV. "It's nonsense to say something like this ... They had no reason to do that."
The Brazilian-made Embraer Legacy 600 executive jet was damaged, but landed safely at an air force base.
The air force said both jets were equipped with a modern traffic collision avoidance system that monitors other planes and sets off an alarm if they get too close, but the system only works if the transponders are working properly.
If the American pilots are found to be responsible for turning off the transponder, which is illegal under Brazilian law, prosecutors said they could be charged with involuntary manslaughter. Authorities said, however, that there was not enough evidence to accuse anybody.
"We don't have elements to talk about that," Federal Police Investigator Renato Sayao told the official government news service Agencia Brasil.
The pilots' passports were seized Wednesday, but they were not arrested.
Authorities also were investigating why the small plane apparently was not flying at its authorized altitude of 36,000 feet. The collision took place at 37,000, where the Boeing 737-800 was authorized to be, Defense Minister Waldir Pires said.
"Why was this jet taken to that altitude? Was it a voluntary act by the pilot? Was it because of wrong information he received?" Sayao said. "That's the key question: What made the plane fly at 37,000 feet when it was supposed to be at 36,000 feet."
U.S. journalist Joe Sharkey, who was on the Legacy, wrote in The New York Times that shortly before the crash he saw an altitude display reading 37,000 feet.
The reporter also criticized air traffic control in Brazil, prompting an irate response from local authorities.
"It was an affirmation absolutely unfair and insane," Jose Carlos Pereira, the president of Brazil's airport authority, told GloboNews.
Pires called it "irresponsible to say something like that."
Brazil's air force said it investigated air traffic controllers' procedures on the day of the crash and found no irregularities.
The Legacy was making its inaugural flight from the southern Brazilian city of Sao Jose dos Campos to the United States, where it had been purchased by ExcelAire Service Inc., based in Ronkonkoma, N.Y.
ExcelAire issued a statement Thursday night saying it "believes the results of the investigation will show the rumors and speculation about its pilots are false."
The New York newspaper Newsday quoted ExcelAire chief executive Bob Sherry earlier in the day as saying he was seeking the return home of Lepore and Paladino.
He declined to comment on the crash, but said, "Our pilots have been treated well."
Nearly 40 bodies had been recovered from the crash site by Thursday, but federal authorities were having difficulties identifying the bodies and said that DNA testing may be needed to complete a process that could take weeks.
Some 250 troops were helping in the operation.
Pilots Involved in Brazil Air Disaster Deny Turning off Communications Device
The American pilots of an executive jet involved in a deadly high-altitude collision with a Boeing 737 have denied they turned off the transponder that signaled their location, authorities said Thursday.
Pilots Joseph Lepore, of Bay Shore, N.Y., and Jan Paladino, of Westhampton Beach, N.Y., repeatedly told investigators they never turned off the device that transmits a plane's location and believed that it was working just before the collision, said Denise Niederauer, a spokeswoman for the Mato Grosso do Sul State Public Safety Department.
Brazilian authorities suggested a day earlier that the pilots may have turned off the device.
Authorities did not say why they believed that may have happened, but said a nonfunctioning transponder was a possible cause of the collision with Gol Airlines Flight 1907, which plunged into the Amazon jungle Friday, killing all 154 aboard in Brazil's worst air disaster. Gol initially had said there were 155 aboard, but on Thursday changed it to 154, blaming a mistake on the passenger list. The airline said a name had appeared twice on the list.
"They didn't turn anything off," Jose Carlos Dias, the pilots' lawyer, told Globo TV. "It's nonsense to say something like this ... They had no reason to do that."
The Brazilian-made Embraer Legacy 600 executive jet was damaged, but landed safely at an air force base.
The air force said both jets were equipped with a modern traffic collision avoidance system that monitors other planes and sets off an alarm if they get too close, but the system only works if the transponders are working properly.
If the American pilots are found to be responsible for turning off the transponder, which is illegal under Brazilian law, prosecutors said they could be charged with involuntary manslaughter. Authorities said, however, that there was not enough evidence to accuse anybody.
"We don't have elements to talk about that," Federal Police Investigator Renato Sayao told the official government news service Agencia Brasil.
The pilots' passports were seized Wednesday, but they were not arrested.
Authorities also were investigating why the small plane apparently was not flying at its authorized altitude of 36,000 feet. The collision took place at 37,000, where the Boeing 737-800 was authorized to be, Defense Minister Waldir Pires said.
"Why was this jet taken to that altitude? Was it a voluntary act by the pilot? Was it because of wrong information he received?" Sayao said. "That's the key question: What made the plane fly at 37,000 feet when it was supposed to be at 36,000 feet."
U.S. journalist Joe Sharkey, who was on the Legacy, wrote in The New York Times that shortly before the crash he saw an altitude display reading 37,000 feet.
The reporter also criticized air traffic control in Brazil, prompting an irate response from local authorities.
"It was an affirmation absolutely unfair and insane," Jose Carlos Pereira, the president of Brazil's airport authority, told GloboNews.
Pires called it "irresponsible to say something like that."
Brazil's air force said it investigated air traffic controllers' procedures on the day of the crash and found no irregularities.
The Legacy was making its inaugural flight from the southern Brazilian city of Sao Jose dos Campos to the United States, where it had been purchased by ExcelAire Service Inc., based in Ronkonkoma, N.Y.
ExcelAire issued a statement Thursday night saying it "believes the results of the investigation will show the rumors and speculation about its pilots are false."
The New York newspaper Newsday quoted ExcelAire chief executive Bob Sherry earlier in the day as saying he was seeking the return home of Lepore and Paladino.
He declined to comment on the crash, but said, "Our pilots have been treated well."
Nearly 40 bodies had been recovered from the crash site by Thursday, but federal authorities were having difficulties identifying the bodies and said that DNA testing may be needed to complete a process that could take weeks.
Some 250 troops were helping in the operation.