Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme

[PAXboy]

Flap 5

Doesn't anyone find it extraordinary that Ryanair publishes private letters to and from Channel 4 on their website? Letters that say 'Strictly Private and Confidential' on them?

Looking at their previous reaction to attacks they will do and say and print anything, irrespective of source or ownership.

In advance of the event, I predict that this programme will make no difference one way or the other - in the wider world. There will be hoo-hah throughout the European airline industry but the vast majority (wild guess, 99.5%) will not notice or care. The only thing that will change their minds is multiple loss of life. I base this view on observing human beings for a number of decades.

[powdermonkey]

I have never had any issues with Ryanair as a pax, and would be only too happy to fly for them in the future, but never having worked for the company, I cannot comment onsafety or working conditions. All I know is that I have a number of friends flying for them, and they have no complaints whatsoever..... Now as far as this program is concerned, I would love to watch it, but at the same time, feel that it will, like most of these programs, be an negatively edited piece, what would be the point otherwise? Good news doesn't sell!!! The fact that any interview, live or otherwise has been refused by Dispatches, means that their program is most probably based on very little that is concrete and factual, and that they would not stand a chance in a live debate. It's all too easy to make programs like these, we have seen it over and over again, clever editing can accomplish just about anything that you wish to convey, so whatever this prog says, it won't stop me flying with Ryanair. This type TV and Tabloid make me , it's all . Lets face it, I'm sure things are not perfect in Ryanair, for pilots, CC, groundstaff etc, but they will not be perfect in any airline, but a Dispatches program stating " All is great in Ryanair, no scandals to report " will not make " good TV "

[AUTOGLIDE]

It'll probably be the just the usual cynical rubbish that shows just how little journalists know about aviation, and how good they are at making up sensationalist tosh. It's just like that stupid sensationalist BBC program about security at MAN - the one where the silly cow involved informed the viewer in hushed, awed tones that she could drive around past aircraft on her own, as you'd expect as a security employee with a full airside pass etc, etc. All junk for plebs basically.

[EI-CFC]

Doesn't anyone find it extraordinary that Ryanair publishes private letters to and from Channel 4 on their website?

Not really. They're doing exactly the best thing they can do at the moment, PR wise, by going "look, we've got NOTHING to hide, it's the journalists who have been sneaking around". Remember what they say about any move that isn't an attack is ground lost - seems especially apt in this case.

[Flap 5]

If an employee was found reading company mail in their office labeled 'Strictly Private and Confidential' they would be disciplined and probably sacked, but it's okay to publish on a website where everyone can read it? I think Channel 4 would be very annoyed that their 'Strictly Private and Confidential' letters are published for all to see.

I presume those of you who are apparently justifying it are saying that Ryanair would act this way because that is the way they are? I certainly hope you don't think it is alright to publish these letters or it tears at the very fabric of our society.

[Hand Solo]

I'm sure Ryanair are extremely p***ed off that C4 have been snooping around training manuals that are presumably company confidential and recording and reporting private conversations on company property.I really don't see why journalists think they can sneak around under the guise of an investigation but should then be immune to having their actions exposed to the public. Perhaps if Ryanair had placed an undercover employee at the offices of the TV company and obtained the letters illicitly than that would have been acceptable to you.

[Flap 5]

So all these tv companies that investigate wrong doing in our society, like the BBC's Watchdog, are wrong to do so? Tell that to the people who have been helped out by these tv programmes.

Of course we are all annoyed as professional pilots when we see reporting which is incorrect. It would be far better if they used people who were familiar with the industry and, in this case, with flying 737-800's. But don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message, make it more accurate.

[bermondseya]

Only the Ryanair correspondance was marked 'Private and Confidential' and one assumes they can decide their own correspondance no longer fits that bill. Nevertheless, why not fight fire with fire?

The correspondance is indeed fascination. My comments would be that employee bitching is common in all organisations, and certainly I hear the same every day at my airline. I am sure a six month undercover investigation at any newspaper could reveal employees saying how poor their employer was too, and come up with off the cuff remarks that could be very juicy taken out of context. Fleet Street is known as 'The Street of Shame' for a reason.

The only thing that airlines need to take note of here is the danger of outsourcing. If you outsource, keep close managerial control of the service provider. You need to be on the inside. An airline as respectable as BA found this out recently to their significant cost and embarrasment.

Ryanair come out of this looking like a very well run company with procedures and controls very few other non-airlines have in place. I suspect this production company would fail to come even close to the standards set by Ryanair.

Let Ryanair have their unedited response.

[Hand Solo]

They can investigate all they want, but they shouldn't expect to be immune from similar practices themselves. They're not hypocrites, are they?

[wingman863]

Originally Posted by Hand Solo

I'm sure Ryanair are extremely p***ed off that C4 have been snooping around training manuals that are presumably company confidential and recording and reporting private conversations on company property.I really don't see why journalists think they can sneak around under the guise of an investigation but should then be immune to having their actions exposed to the public. Perhaps if Ryanair had placed an undercover employee at the offices of the TV company and obtained the letters illicitly than that would have been acceptable to you.

If something is judged to be "in the public interest", you would be suprised what can be got away with. In my opinion rightly so.

[arewenearlythereyet?]

Gee, there are some real nerds on here with comments like

How the bloody blue blazes did a camera crew, despite a camera being small enough to be worn in the lapel, get their equipment through security?

WTF has that got to do with anything about this programme? We are talking about some reporters who actually trained as Ryanair cabin crew and filmed their experiences.

You must be a real ninny to go around shrieking with horror at the fact that they managed to get miniature cameras on board. I mean, they will really cause a lot of terror and damage with those now, won't they? Perhaps you were one of those regulars who dive in to these threads without having read all the associated links and detail because you will have read that they didn't film during take off or landing just as the PA says. But of course, they managed to get those dangerous, no, lethal, cameras on board and all you can do is wring your hands in terror at the fact that they were able to get them past security. We all know how feeble the current security system is anyway.

Next we have the morally outraged posters who are astounded that Ryanair have published their own "private and confidential" letters. What has that got to do with this programme? Even if they published letters from the producers that were "private and confidential" so what? Do you think they can be sued? Get a life and start to understand the world we live in. Short of publishing something covered under the official secrets act there is nothing you can do about it. Anyway, it is just typical of the Ryanair management to try and steamroller their way out of the embarrassment that will no doubt be highlighted in this programme.

Yes, as mentioned earlier, C4 and Dispatches don't have a lot going for their reputation amongst airline pilots but in this instance they are focussing on the bullying and ruthless management of a company that is very good at disguising its poor quality of man management and its greedy reputation of garnering even bigger profits off the backs of its workers. What we are satisfied with here is the fact that this programme will focus on Ryanairs rip off and lying culture. Forcing employees to fund their own training and paying for their own uniforms and everything else whilst claiming that they are the highest paying, easiest working airline will be exposed as just more Ryanair management untruths.

The documents they have provided about the demotion of the captain who refused to work extra sectors because he was tired and their publication of their version of the facts shows to what lengths they will go do put down anyone who challenges their bullying. The publication alone is typical of how they get their message across to the rest of their workforce in a manner that is designed to warn against questioning their authority.

This programme will no doubt sensationalise some things but then that is expected even if we don't like it but it's about time we had someone air Ryanairs dirty laundry even if it only makes the rest of us feel good for a while. Schadenfreude.

[Flap 5]

Do you feel better now?

[Coolcarbon]

Originally Posted by Memetic

The big question, who has bought the ad breaks?
A low cost rival?
A "full service" rival?
A train operator?

Stagecoach/Megabus.com would be a good bet....

They seem to operate to a similar ethos...

[Aloue]

There is always something on pprune to keep one marvelling. Like this gem from powdermonkey:

All I know is that I have a number of friends flying for them [Ryanair], and they have no complaints whatsoever .....

powdermonkey gives his location as Dublin, where a rather vicious battle between Ryanair and its pilots has been on-going for months. There has been the John Goss case, over 250 victimisation complaints by pilots and the recent fatigue/demotion case (among many other issues) ..... and yet he hears "......... no complaints whatsoever ... " .... just who is he talking to?

Likewise for bermondseya - whom I seem to remember making similar smoothing noises about Ryanair in the past - and who is now saying, in effect, that since all companies have complaining employees this must be so much hot air. He concludes that

Ryanair come out of this looking like a very well run company with procedures and controls very few other non-airlines have in place.

The practices and realities of Ryanair are what this is about bermondseya, not the fine words and manipulated statements.

[BEagle]

It will be interesting to note whether C4 will focus on Ryanair's unique interpretation of the '900 hours in 12 months rule'.....

[EI-CFC]

I certainly hope you don't think it is alright to publish these letters or it tears at the very fabric of our society.

You have got to be kidding, right?

They are perfectly within their right to release it if they so feel like! As someone else pointed out, the production company didn't put any such clause on their letters, while Ryanair did when they were trying to resolve the matter with the producers. After they failed to meet an agreement, or gave Ryanair the chance of an unedited interview and/or statement, Ryanair did the best thing they could: release the documentation to the public, and let the public decide.

[powdermonkey]

Aloue Why is my statement a gem? Is it not possible that there are some happy Ryanair pilots? Spare me your condescending /flippant attitude. The pilots I mentioned are not based in Dublin, so my statement is not a gem, just feeback from pilots based in the UK. Again, my post also stated that I did not think Ryanair was a perfect company, but nor are any other airlines and there will always be complaints from individuals, and those complaints will always be heard louder than everything else, as no one gives a toss about the " non-sensational stories ". The simple point I am putting across is that in every company, airline or otherwise, someone at some time will find fault and complain, if you choose to highlight this then it is easy to show a company to be found lacking.
I am not defending Ryanair, just trying to show that not all their employees are overworked and stressed out. I am aware of the difficulties which arose in EIDW, but did not know anyone involved. OK?

[bermondseya]

My dear Aloue,

Likewise for bermondseya - whom I seem to remember making similar smoothing noises about Ryanair in the past - and who is now saying, in effect, that since all companies have complaining employees this must be so much hot air.

Your memory needs working on. I have made 12 posts, one of which relates to Ryanair (the one you quoted). You have made 83 posts, 48 of which relate to Ryanair. Obviously one of us has an axe to grind, and it isn't me. Perhaps my post count would be higher here if there wasn't a propensity to play the man and not the ball.

You also misunderstand me. People complain in all jobs and it doesn't always prove there is something wrong. It is my opinion that the accusations made by Despatches do not demonstrate a problem at Ryanair. The robust, credible and detailed rebuttals of these accusations (with supporting documents) demonstrates to me that Despatch have spent three months and come up blank.

Their letters consist of many accusations (I see no supporting evidence, purely suggestions that they have things on tape) and in my opinion amounts to nothing more than a fishing expedition. They are simply trying to find out what Ryanair's defence is so they can edit their programme accordingly in order to bolster their weak case.

From reading the correspondance, it is clear to me that the standard required to become a CEO of a major airline is greater than the standard required to become a producer of a small TV production company.

If there is a problem at Ryanair, it is clear to me that this TV production company has not found it.

Perhaps one of the many journalists who frequent this site can let us know how these TV production companies get paid. Do they only get paid if they produce the show? i.e. if they don't have a case they get nothing, so there is a financial incentive to provide 60 minutes of programming no matter what?

[egbt]

If there is a problem at Ryanair, it is clear to me that this TV production company has not found it.

Would it not be a good idea to actually watch the program before making up your mind?

[Aloue]

powdermonkey, most people who edit their posts do so to soften remarks that might have been a bit hasty. You went the other way and added

Spare me your condescending /flippant attitude.

You are indeed entitled to your opinions, but there was nothing either "condescending" or "flippant" in what I wrote. I just took your first post - which differs in tone from your second - at face value and responded accordingly. Apart from the condenscending/flippant bit I can better see your position from the second post.

bermondseya, you also are entitled to you opinions, especially when you say that

Perhaps my post count would be higher here if there wasn't a propensity to play the man and not the ball.

There is, however, a bit of a difference between pointing out inconsistencies and "playing the man", is there not? You also seem to confuse the number of posts with what they contain. If you did not make a similar "smoothing" sounds about Ryanair in the past - a point you did NOT address in your reply - you would indeed be entitled to have the remark withdrawn.

But both of you seem to miss the point - which is that by posting here your logic and the content of what you write is open to scrutiny and criticism, no less than it is for myself. I will leave it up to others to make up their own minds about where you and I are coming from. In that regard bermondseya I really do find it exceedingly strange that you feel able to say the following

It is my opinion that the accusations made by Despatches do not demonstrate a problem at Ryanair.

before the programme has actually been transmitted. I think it is not "playing the man" to observe that this is a remarkable position to take, particularly given the Ryanair news management techniques already discussed by several contributors to this thread. Interestingly, it is also consistent with taking a "soothing" position regarding Ryanair.