Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)

[what_the_hell_was_that?]

I think plastic is being sarcastic.

(at least I hope he is..... )

[chikenscanfly]

hudson,

as much as i doubt MOL will take note of your suggestion, i obviously still place some hope...

Plastic,

MOL didnt invent low cost... he simply came back from the states and used what he saw at Southwest there...

Most of Ryanairs cost saving methods, like the website or the 25 minute turnarounds, were originally strongly opposed by MOL, until board members or in one case even Tony Ryan set him straight...


And if we could have the freedom to leave the company as a reaction to whats going on, we would do so tommorow... unfortunately, it takes a bit longer than that to land a new job, and all in all can take up to 5 months before someone leaves the company (including 3 month notice period)... thats almost half a year!

So how are MOL's extreme tactics supposed to create a balance when their backlash will only take affect following some delay?

Let us also not forget that this is not bearing in mind that management tactics often lock people where they are so they have nowhere to go, but to take it all in spite...

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Bollocks

I agree with plastique. Ryanair has done more for European social integration than the EU could ever dream about. I'm not MOL, of course, but I do work for him and from the cockpit window see young people climbing the air stair every day seeking the adventure of their lives in far distant parts that otherwise would have remained only a dream. Young Latvians going to Germany, young Italians going to France, young Britons going everywhere. Peoples lives across Europe have changed and are changing thanks in no small way to low cost airlines. Holiday homes in the Languedoc, day trips to Pisa, excursions to the Berlin opera, all feasible now because people realise they no longer need to spend four hundred quid and a kidney for the pleasure of being snarled at for an hour by some menopausal wench in an ill-fitting skirt.

The market has shifted, Hudson Bay, and the company I work for is run by a visionary with balls and determination in equal measure, a fact to which you seem to have taken particular exception. Personally, I admire him, and in anticipation of the howls of derision surely to follow, imagine European aviation without LCC's, or worse, without strong, charismatic leadership in a ruthless marketplace.

My guess is that you are in business to make money.

You think?

I congratulate you on emerging from the squalor of your early life, Hudson Bay, but might I suggest you contact old Jock again. If he's still giving away free money, this time invest some of it in a night school course to improve your spelling and overcome your fondness for indulgent, florid sentimentality.

[t'inter']

News story from the Irish Times - via ireland.com - on eircom.net

Pilot wins injunction against Ryanair

http://home.eircom.net/content/irela...view=Eircomnet

[G SXTY]

Fascinating link . . .

It added that harassment and bullying of other employees would not be tolerated.

If the subject wasn't so serious, the irony of that statement would be hilarious.

What a nasty, spiteful, vindictive employer. Allegedly.

[the grim repa]

well there you are leo.we seem to have misplaced your previous pearls of wisdom.you really seem to have done brilliantly on picking up the harsh brutal way while working for your beloved.better watch out don't the ghost of christmas past come visit you.
as a matter of note i find that pilots spelling in general is poor,but i love those goofy b*st*rds all the same.

obv.

[atse]

Hi dere Hairy Leo, why did you delete some of your previous posts? Ashamed of something you wrote?

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

The ghost of unions past.....

Hello didimus,

Yes I missed you too. But wait, what’s this? Having trouble rounding up the gullible for your whinge fest on another site? Surely not!

could i urge you all very strongly,once again talk to your colleagues friends and relations.ask them to join this forum if only to read what progress is being made.we need more numbers here and the guys burying their heads in the sand nedd to wise up.

Perhaps they're not the only ones who nedd (sic) to wise up, eh didimus old pal?

Hi there atse, old thing,

I'll answer your question by quoting one of the more memorable lines from Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited. "It was neither the quantity nor the quality, but rather the mixture".

[Hudson Bay]

I feel very sorry for you Leo. You haven't discovered what your short mortal life is about. It's not about hiding behind a name that you have to change every now and then because of the threat of being discovered. It's not about harsh words and trying your very best to put people down just because you hold a more senior position.

My apologies if you couldn't understand the word I spelt incorrectly, I thought you had more intelligence. However, there is more than one way to spell many words and who is to say one way is more correct than the other? The English language was created to convey a message and that is the standard that we use today. Maybe your problem is focusing on the minor issues instead of the more important parts such as the message??


LEO HIRAY- CMEAL fndis it dfcluifit to itrnergtae itno scoetiy bcuease of his porlebm wtih seplilng and his itablniy to wrok out a smplie msesgae.

I thought you might be able to work that out!!

Besides the issue of my poor spelling, I was merely pointing out something that is important to all of us and that is to treat people fairly and with respect. God help us if he took all the good people out of the world and left us with people like you.

[Carpathia]

LHC - ultimately pilots are sensible people and I can assure you, as an obvious non-pilot, that the long term success of airlines is of far greater importance to the average pilot than to the average manager. The reason for this being the rather obvious one that while MOL and co. can afford to retire this afternoon, most pilots can not and need thus need a viable Ryanair far more than OLeary does.
With this in mind, consider why a union is wanted. Answer, quite simple because it is needed, not to, as you seem to think, to ruin the company (see paragraph 1).
The question must again be asked, in the (rather vain I suspect) hope that maybe, just maybe, someone FR manager will answer it: if unions are so bad, why is the most unionised airline in the US also the most profitable airline in the world?

Plastique:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you would like to be a pax on flights that employ only those stupid enough to accept in the long term the derisory Ts and Cs on offer by Ryanair, that's your own business, but I, and I reckon most others, would have an issue with it.

[atse]

L H-C, old thing, how terribly kind of you to reply so promptly. Would you have any objection if I re-posted the missing posts for you? It would help us all follow what has been going on.

[Tom the Tenor]

Leo Hairy Camel has made some good points above about getting people to be more involved in Europe brought about by cheap transport with the low cost airlines.

For example, some of you will know I always try to champion Cork in the Airlines and Airport forum but in my youth I must reluctantly admit to also visiting Shannon Airport to watch the aeroplanes and especially the widebodies off to America and the freighters like Cargolux, Seaboard World etc stop off for fuel. You all know how it is with aeroplane spotters and you pilots may all have a good laugh about it now, no problem.

Times have moved on and now when the Cork spotters and enthusiasts take a trip somewhere it is more often than not by air to places like Manchester, Heathrow, Amsterdam, Luton via Stansted etc. Most of these trips are possible now even as a day trip ex Cork and it is the likes of Ryanair and not the likes of Aer Lingus, British Airways that brought this state of affairs about. If EI had their way we would now be paying at least 500 euro for a Cork to Heathrow basing that on 1970s and 1980s prices.

Ryanair bought another 70 737s last week and good luck to them too. That is another 300 plus pilot jobs. I think it is only a matter of time before they start paying for some type ratings again because I just cant see all that many new pilots around paying for ratings and at the same time being bonded. Market forces will surely dictate Ryanair's future and they sure aint doing much wrong with last week's announcement?

[SmilingKnifed]

Speaking as a wannabe (insert whichever charming term you prefer Leo) it's fair to say that low hours pilots (in the opinion of some FO friends within the company) join more through need than want.

With the increase in turbo-prop jobs, TRSS, not to mention myriad other options emerging, there's a lessening requirement for people to subject themselves to bully boy tactics from some of the less charming examples of the human species for little reward.

Particularly in light of the headway currently being made in the courts, I'd be inclined to say that fewer and fewer rats would be inclined to join a sinking ship.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Chicanery

headway currently being made in the courts

Headway! You must be joking, SK. What you refer to is merely a case of "he said, she said" before Justice Kelly. JG denies he actively sought to intimidate fellow pilots not to fly 800's out of Dublin as a means of strengthening his futile (my opinion) REPA lead action. I personally know of a contractor who has lost his job because he felt unable to work out of Dublin when rostered to do so. The only show that matters is the main event in the High Court, yet to come. No guess as to the outcome, I suppose, but it will be fun to watch. Headway? I don't think so.

I'd be inclined to say that fewer and fewer rats would be inclined to join a sinking ship.

I'd be inclined to say you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Sinking? The Ryanair juggernaut is very much afloat, and accelerating.

as an obvious non-pilot

You make a false assumption, Carpathia. You presume that I, as one who speaks in support and admiration of my employer, can't possibly be a Ryanair Captain, though I assure you I am. What you think of me, though, is less relevant than the ludicrous assumption you make about the benevolence and bonhomie of pilot unions. You might very well advance the argument that they're a good idea in theory, but the trouble is, as has been demonstrated around the globe time and time again, the reality of what they get up to is, more often than not, wicked, dishonest and extortionate. You hold Southwest's unions as the torch of propriety, although in recent months their CEO has been forced out because of the intransigence of the flight attendants union and implicit threat of broader industrial consequences. Come on now!

Unions are bunk. They are anti business, anti success, and ultimately, anti pilots. Think what you will of Ryanair, but amongst all the premature backslapping in the pubs of Malahide this evening, Ryanair is getting on with it and creating pilot jobs by the truckload.

[Carpathia]

Oh dear LHC, here we go again, the assumption that all unions are truly evil and want to ruin the company. I remind you again that a strong and viable company is in the interest of all pilots, management always have and always will be short-termists with an eye on the quick buck before moving on. Pilots are more likely to take a career length view. I suggest that if the FR pilots felt they were being treated correctly a union would not be necessary.
Your links make interesting reading but you are unable to see the middle ground. Of course I do not condone such actions as those unions and I have always been anti-union, however somebody or something needs to give FR pilots some protection from FR management and a union seems to be only show in town to do this. Have you a better suggestion? (not including so called "direct negotiation" as this clearly does not work).

The problem I have with unions, under our current American Labor Laws, is that they are based on force; they are based on fraud; they are based on coercion, intimidation and outright violence. I have asked this question many times, but no one who supports labor unions has ever been willing to give me a coherent answer:

Seems more like FR management tactics in fairness, rather than those of IALPA (leaving aside outright violence obviously)

[pancho]

I have heard a rumour that a blacklist is being created which will contain the names of those pilots that do not support the plight of their Dublin based colleagues, specifically those that move back to the base while a threat of redundancy exits on the –200 guys. It seems if those on the list wish to move on from Ryanair at any stage in the future they might meet obstacles with selection at other airlines… hmmm… anybody able to shed some light on that ?

[the grim repa]

thats a load of bull.

[atse]

Leo H-C, despite your claims, you clearly are not a pilot. Your interesting notion that JG is a "REPA lead" is entirely consistent with the position taken by Ryanair management in their actions. But it also means that you don't know some things that virtually all FR pilots who want to know could find out.

The evidence for JG's role in REPA can only exist in your minds. Why so .... well that's what you clearly don't know. Every pilot in Dublin knows he is innocent. As you say, the High Court will provide the main action.

Are yourself and your management colleagues looking forward to cross-examination? We know a lot more about you lot than you clearly know about us. JG involved in the intimidation of pilots - what absolute poppycock.

Your description of the proceedings in the court are also interesting. I have now read the Irish Times version and it sounds to me like you people have been well spotted by the judge.

Keep up the usual Ryanair propaganda on PPRuNe and elsewhere, sure 'tis all you have left to say ... "lies, damned lies and Ryanair lies".

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

He said, she said, then he said......

management always have and always will be short-termists with an eye on the quick buck before moving on.

Horse cookies, Carpathia. Does this sound like the act of a management team with short term objectives?

but you are unable to see the middle ground.

There isn't any. Don't take my word for it, though. Read through various threads right here at Pprune to see just how effective and beloved is BALPA. Have a look at Easyjet, Flybe, BACX see how delighted the troops are with BALPA negotiating efficacy, or if you're really strong of stomach, have a look at the entirely preposterous situation at GSS, where the commands of (BALPA member) GSS FO's are being squashed by farmed out FO's from the world's favourite airline. Face it, Carpathia, unions don't work. They are parasites to industry and cause nothing but trouble. Convincing the unfortunate Captain Goss that he has a case is just cruel. Encouraging him and others to believe that employment since '86 establishes special preconditions to contract negotiations or that free of charge conversion onto another aircraft type, with a guaranteed Dublin base mind you, is somehow unfair or inappropriate, well that's nothing but vicious, cynical manipulation of useful idiots, to coin a Marxist phrase. I'm sure Evan Cullen must be laughing himself sick. He, like you though, should wait for the last laugh. My money is on Mullingar Mick.

[Bearcat]

Irish times 1 March


A long-serving pilot with Ryanair has won a continuing High Court injunction restraining the private airline from conducting disciplinary proceedings against him.




John Goss claims the disciplinary process is "bogus" and was designed to get at him because he had joined a pilots' trade union and had brought a complaint of victimisation against Ryanair.

Justice Kelly yesterday granted Roddy Horan, with Marguerite Bolger, for Mr Goss, of Yellow Walls Road, Malahide, Co Dublin, an interlocutory injunction restraining the operation of the disciplinary hearing pending the outcome of the hearing of Mr Goss's full action against Ryanair. A date for that action will be set later.

When granting the order, the judge stressed he was not required to make any findings at this point on either the facts or law in the case. What he had to decide was whether Mr Goss had established a serious issue to be tried, whether damages were an adequate remedy and whether the balance of convenience lay in granting or refusing the injunction.

The judge said he was satisfied Mr Goss has made out a real issue to be tried arising from the claim that the disciplinary procedure was "bogus" or a "sham" and was wholly imprecise in that it left Mr Goss with no clear knowledge of what exactly was being alleged against him.

There were "disquieting aspects" about the procedures adopted by Ryanair, the judge said.

Initial correspondence from Ryanair to Mr Goss had referred to complaints that Mr Goss had made threatening phone calls to UK-based pilots who might take up offers of flying certain aircraft from Dublin. Mr Goss had denied such claims and sought details about the complainants which he had not yet received.

Mr Goss was now facing allegations that he had failed to co-operate with an investigation procedure within Ryanair. He had made out a serious issue to be tried regarding his claim that he had been denied fair procedures.

The judge said there were two investigative meetings which Mr Goss attended with his solicitor. This resulted in 25 pages of questions and answers. On January 28th 2005, Ryanair wrote to Mr Goss stating it had reviewed the contents of the investigative meetings and had decided to hold a disciplinary meeting. It added that harassment and bullying of other employees would not be tolerated.

This letter was the first indication that the investigation had moved into the disciplinary stage and was the first notification to Mr Goss of an alleged failure on his part to cooperate with the investigation. The letter did not set out any allegations against Mr Goss.

On February 16th, Mr Goss secured an interim High Court injunction restraining the holding of a disciplinary meeting.

The allegations of failing to co-operate with an investigation by his employer and to have given evasive answers to questions had serious implications both for Mr Goss's ability to earn his livelihood and for his reputation, the judge said. In that regard, he did not consider damages would be an adequate remedy were the disciplinary procedure to go ahead, at this stage, in the manner sought by Ryanair.

The judge also held that the balance of convenience lay in granting the injunction to Mr Goss. He made directions aimed at securing an early hearing of the full action.

Earlier, outlining the background, the judge said Mr Goss has been a pilot with Ryanair since 1986. It was clear that throughout its history, Ryanair had a policy of refusing to recognise trade unions and had a policy of dealing directly with its employees.

Mr Goss and other pilots had found this method unsatisfactory and some pilots had joined the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa), a branch of the Impact trade union.

They had instructed Ialpa to open negotiations with Ryanair on issues of concern to pilots but Ryanair had refused to do so. Impact had referred the dispute to the Labour Court.

The judge said it was clear from affidavits read to the court that there is a dispute between Ryanair and Ialpa.

In an affidavit, Mr Goss said that, on November 4th, 2004 he and other Dublin pilots were asked by Ryanair to attend a meeting at which they were threatened that if the trade union activities did not cease, they would be excluded from any pay increase, Ryanair's share option scheme, promotion and insurance for loss of pilot's licence would be cancelled.

He said they were threatened that they would be required to pay €15,000 training costs and would be required to pay for future recurrent training. They were also told they might be excluded from certain privileges and may face compulsory redundancy.

Mr Goss said Ryanair brought pressure on him and other pilots to take up the training offer and to sign a letter accepting the conditions including the repayment of the €15,000. On November 29th, Ryanair withdrew the offer. He and other pilots then made complaints of victimisation.

Around December 10th, Ryanair initiated an investigative and subsequent disciplinary procedure which failed to adhere to the principles of fair procedures and natural justice.

Mr Goss said there was absolutely no basis in fact to the suggestion that he made threatening telephone calls or intimidated pilots.

In another affidavit, Mr David O'Brien, director of Flight and Ground Operations, rejected the claims that Ryanair's motivation in instigating the investigation and disciplinary procedure related in any way to Mr Goss's membership of a trade union or to the victimisation complaints.

Ryanair, he said, had received a number of complaints from UK pilots based in Stansted alleging that Mr Goss made threatening and intimidating phone calls warning pilots not to accept positions on new aircraft to be based in Dublin. Ryanair had an obligation to its employees to investigate such claims.


Irish times