The Demise of the Professional Pilot
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Kaptin M
Although I understand your view regarding a RESPONSIBLE CAPTAIN.
And although I KNOW that that means ALWAYS making decisions with SAFETY first in mind, there is a bit about going into discretion and making decisions on a level that may harm a person PERSONALLY, that I believe you DO understand, but fail to confirm before us on this forum!
I don't for a minute feel that TDF380 is about to sell the SAFETY of his aircraft down the line for complying with "protocols" that are invisibly forced upon him.
He will go that extra mile because he knows that he CAN bring the flight to a satisfactory conclusion, BUT NOT COMFORTABLY!
And why should he if the hours to do it in, are publicised clearly.
You live in Aussie, where intimidation may be upside down for us.
JOKE!
However it's not to say that YOUR understanding of what WE have to put up with is the same as you might imagine.
Do you think perhaps we are IMAGINING that this profession is continously going down the U bend?
As I said, TDF380 is trying to juggle with his own responsibility to himself and his passengers and to the corrupt disfunctional, greedy airline management that are paying his wage to feed his kids and wife with.
YOU ARE ONE HARD "observer" mate.
Although I understand your view regarding a RESPONSIBLE CAPTAIN.
And although I KNOW that that means ALWAYS making decisions with SAFETY first in mind, there is a bit about going into discretion and making decisions on a level that may harm a person PERSONALLY, that I believe you DO understand, but fail to confirm before us on this forum!
I don't for a minute feel that TDF380 is about to sell the SAFETY of his aircraft down the line for complying with "protocols" that are invisibly forced upon him.
He will go that extra mile because he knows that he CAN bring the flight to a satisfactory conclusion, BUT NOT COMFORTABLY!
And why should he if the hours to do it in, are publicised clearly.
You live in Aussie, where intimidation may be upside down for us.
JOKE!
However it's not to say that YOUR understanding of what WE have to put up with is the same as you might imagine.
Do you think perhaps we are IMAGINING that this profession is continously going down the U bend?
As I said, TDF380 is trying to juggle with his own responsibility to himself and his passengers and to the corrupt disfunctional, greedy airline management that are paying his wage to feed his kids and wife with.
YOU ARE ONE HARD "observer" mate.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
My feeling, skyclamp, is that TDF380 is representative of quite a few professional pilots - whether they work for known, less reputable companies, or are employed by large, well-known airlines.
These pilots are putting THEMSELVES under a great deal of stress, by not exercising their legal authority.
It must be difficult for them each time they know they are due to go to work, wondering how they are going to be "tested".
Undoubtedly this stress also carries through to their home life, and creates friction that is an outlet for the work anxiety.
The problem I find with that, skyclamp, is that if the TDF380`s are willing to fly fatigued, take aircraft that legally should not be flying, etc. then what else do they envisage they HAVE to do to retain their employment?
Bust minimums?
Take off overweight?
Carry incorrectly packed or loaded cargo?
The list is endless.
BTW, I`m a participant in the aviation scene - not an observer.
I don`t disagree that there has certainly been an erosion of our conditions - the most severe, and rapid that I`ve experienced in my 30+ years in this profession.
It is evident that the reduction in our final paypacket is not ONLY for our companies to main competitiveness, it is also used to line the pockets of ruthless, greedy managers, and to allow them to propagate like duck weed on a pond!
BUT, I do NOT believe that we - as professional pilots - must allow our own personal standards to be overridden by these people.
It is up to EACH and EVERY one of us to use our discretion, experience, and knowledge to make SAFE decisions.
Occasionally these decisions may well impact economically, however by discarding that which we KNOW is the correct thing to do, is even more dangerous, and if allowed to perpetuate WILL lead to the demise of the professional pilot.
Show the leadership skills and authority that this profession demands.
Only in that way can we start to regain some of the respect that has disappeared!
These pilots are putting THEMSELVES under a great deal of stress, by not exercising their legal authority.
It must be difficult for them each time they know they are due to go to work, wondering how they are going to be "tested".
Undoubtedly this stress also carries through to their home life, and creates friction that is an outlet for the work anxiety.
I don't for a minute feel that TDF380 is about to sell the SAFETY of his aircraft down the line for complying with "protocols" that are invisibly forced upon him.
Bust minimums?
Take off overweight?
Carry incorrectly packed or loaded cargo?
The list is endless.
BTW, I`m a participant in the aviation scene - not an observer.
I don`t disagree that there has certainly been an erosion of our conditions - the most severe, and rapid that I`ve experienced in my 30+ years in this profession.
It is evident that the reduction in our final paypacket is not ONLY for our companies to main competitiveness, it is also used to line the pockets of ruthless, greedy managers, and to allow them to propagate like duck weed on a pond!
BUT, I do NOT believe that we - as professional pilots - must allow our own personal standards to be overridden by these people.
It is up to EACH and EVERY one of us to use our discretion, experience, and knowledge to make SAFE decisions.
Occasionally these decisions may well impact economically, however by discarding that which we KNOW is the correct thing to do, is even more dangerous, and if allowed to perpetuate WILL lead to the demise of the professional pilot.
Show the leadership skills and authority that this profession demands.
Only in that way can we start to regain some of the respect that has disappeared!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 7th Feb 2005 at 02:28.
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The botom line is
Our profession is being eroded dramatically, this is the main point of the starter of this thread. His statement is 90% valid.
And unless we start to build something like a mega union or organise the pilots associations around the world, (dream!...) the bean counters will be taking fodder were is cheaper, and our profession will continuously spiraling down.
The other way for things to improve is by market forces: a great and hardly probable pilot shortage...
Kaptim
You´re absolutely right. There´s no single excuse for not being professional.
And unless we start to build something like a mega union or organise the pilots associations around the world, (dream!...) the bean counters will be taking fodder were is cheaper, and our profession will continuously spiraling down.
The other way for things to improve is by market forces: a great and hardly probable pilot shortage...
Kaptim
You´re absolutely right. There´s no single excuse for not being professional.
Last edited by fullforward; 8th Feb 2005 at 20:17.
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Again Well Said TDF380,
Youve summed up my career in aviation.
A few years in GA with cr@p pay and conditions
Years in a commuter airline, with small pay cuts, and having to work extra days off when they said they were struggling.
Now on international operations and in the last 3 years things are rapidly declining, pay , allowances are being reduced while hours worked are increasing. What will it be like in 10 years.
Kaptan M
Its seems you either work in Aus or maybe Japan, If you were to refuse a flight, would it affect your next contract renewal, or are you permanent staff. An airline does not have to renew your contract. No reason needs to be given as to why they are not renewing your contract.
Are you on a contract.
TDF is quite correct, there is underlying intimidation. You may not have worked for such an airline.
Are you the type to say
refuse to do it.
go on strike.
go slow.
work to rule.
vote with your feet, even if you do not have another job lined up to go to.
Have you ever done any of the above.
I aggre with TDF it is a problem with managers and the regulators.
In the ideal world we would all just refuse, in reality its not so simple.
Youve summed up my career in aviation.
A few years in GA with cr@p pay and conditions
Years in a commuter airline, with small pay cuts, and having to work extra days off when they said they were struggling.
Now on international operations and in the last 3 years things are rapidly declining, pay , allowances are being reduced while hours worked are increasing. What will it be like in 10 years.
Kaptan M
Its seems you either work in Aus or maybe Japan, If you were to refuse a flight, would it affect your next contract renewal, or are you permanent staff. An airline does not have to renew your contract. No reason needs to be given as to why they are not renewing your contract.
Are you on a contract.
TDF is quite correct, there is underlying intimidation. You may not have worked for such an airline.
Are you the type to say
refuse to do it.
go on strike.
go slow.
work to rule.
vote with your feet, even if you do not have another job lined up to go to.
Have you ever done any of the above.
I aggre with TDF it is a problem with managers and the regulators.
In the ideal world we would all just refuse, in reality its not so simple.
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When I first read this thread - and put my little piece on it - I had not idea we were complaining about how we destroyed our profession. I thought we were bemoaning the lack of respect and common courtesy we receive from our employers.
I cannot and will not agree with any of you who say in one breath "oh! poor fellow me, look what I have to tolerate." And, in the other breath say, "but I had to give in (under pressure) and do the wrong thing..."
I am horrified by some of the self-denial evident in the last couple of pages of this thread.
How can we ever expect proper treatment when we behave in a cowering and self-interested way? As an airline captain, I am responsible for doing the right thing. Not the convenient thing. Not the easiest thing. Not the job-preserving thing. Not the cop-out thing.
Hell - if we don't act professionally, why should we expect decent treatment. Some of the comment on this thread makes the word prostitute spring to mind.
To short-circuit the critics. Yes. I work for a big-name Asian airline. Do I understand the difficulties endured by those who don't work for such professional outfits? Yes. I have been to hell and back in this occupation. I have been flying for 30+ years. I have worked for airlines in Oceania, Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Some of these jobs were awful. But, I never lowered my standards to "fit in" or "survive". I have lost jobs because of my standards. I have even lost my ability to live in my homeland because of my beliefs (at the time). I have NEVER subordinated my standards to my job-of-the-day.
In the end - we have one life, one licence and one standard of self-esteem. By comparison a job is a passing thing.
Untill you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - no one will take you seriously.
I cannot and will not agree with any of you who say in one breath "oh! poor fellow me, look what I have to tolerate." And, in the other breath say, "but I had to give in (under pressure) and do the wrong thing..."
I am horrified by some of the self-denial evident in the last couple of pages of this thread.
How can we ever expect proper treatment when we behave in a cowering and self-interested way? As an airline captain, I am responsible for doing the right thing. Not the convenient thing. Not the easiest thing. Not the job-preserving thing. Not the cop-out thing.
Hell - if we don't act professionally, why should we expect decent treatment. Some of the comment on this thread makes the word prostitute spring to mind.
To short-circuit the critics. Yes. I work for a big-name Asian airline. Do I understand the difficulties endured by those who don't work for such professional outfits? Yes. I have been to hell and back in this occupation. I have been flying for 30+ years. I have worked for airlines in Oceania, Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Some of these jobs were awful. But, I never lowered my standards to "fit in" or "survive". I have lost jobs because of my standards. I have even lost my ability to live in my homeland because of my beliefs (at the time). I have NEVER subordinated my standards to my job-of-the-day.
In the end - we have one life, one licence and one standard of self-esteem. By comparison a job is a passing thing.
Untill you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - no one will take you seriously.
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HIALS wrote,
An honourable sentiment indeed, and absolute, utter mindless tosh.
Can you just tell me which section of the application form is marked "Credibility" ?????
Been there, done that, got the tick: I don't see anyone rushing to my door offering me a job because of "credibility". On the contrary, if you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - oh, and do your damnedest to make certain that guys working for you don't get shafted by the CEO and his beancounters - do you really think that you go are going to endear yourself to anyone???
Ever actually been a manager in an airline? Ever been the guy batting day in day out for the people at the coalface?
Ever been in the situation where you dread going in to the office in morning because you know you will fighting your corner, and the corners of your pilots all the time? Ever walked into the Ops room first thing in the morning to be told " Captain XXXX has been fired" and then spent the next hour arguing and pleading with the CEO not to fire a guy who refused to operate because he was EXHAUSTED!!!
Ever had to tell the CEO, who owns the airline, that he cant just promote guys to Training Captain without them undergoing the prescribed training, just because it's cheaper to omit it??
Ever had to tell the CEO that he can't just appoint Captains behind your back when they don't have the minimum experience requirements laid down in the Ops Manual??
Ever been verbally assaulted by cabin crew / crew transport owners / ground staff / Ops staff / passengers / clients - you name it, over the way your company "operates" because you are the manager on the ground, at the front just because you are a pilot and happen to have fly occassionally???
Ever had to deal with all the buls**t of an Authority Ops inspection when they gloss over all the real "meat" presented to them and focus on the trivia of crossed T's and I's not dotted???
Ever had to work every day trying to balance the need to follow the regulations and keep people in a job???
Tell you what HIALS, put your money where your mouth is.......your present outfit must need Capts, you get me a job and I'll bring all my credibility with me, how's that.
International union.....don't make laugh. Strength in unity.....that takes commitment, organisation and some sense of belonging. Are you, if you are sitting fat dumb and happy in the left seat of a 744 or an A332 going stand up and be counted when your "colleague" flying a Shed on night freight needs your support because his boss is using veiled threats to force him to work outside the regulations???
You would get more loyalty and support working in a Bangkok whorehouse than in any airline. Not only will the CEO, beancounters and ambitious management pilots stab you in the back, but your ambitious / comfortable colleagues will look after No 1 every time.
Untill you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - no one will take you seriously.
Can you just tell me which section of the application form is marked "Credibility" ?????
Been there, done that, got the tick: I don't see anyone rushing to my door offering me a job because of "credibility". On the contrary, if you stand up for yourself, your career and your standards - oh, and do your damnedest to make certain that guys working for you don't get shafted by the CEO and his beancounters - do you really think that you go are going to endear yourself to anyone???
Ever actually been a manager in an airline? Ever been the guy batting day in day out for the people at the coalface?
Ever been in the situation where you dread going in to the office in morning because you know you will fighting your corner, and the corners of your pilots all the time? Ever walked into the Ops room first thing in the morning to be told " Captain XXXX has been fired" and then spent the next hour arguing and pleading with the CEO not to fire a guy who refused to operate because he was EXHAUSTED!!!
Ever had to tell the CEO, who owns the airline, that he cant just promote guys to Training Captain without them undergoing the prescribed training, just because it's cheaper to omit it??
Ever had to tell the CEO that he can't just appoint Captains behind your back when they don't have the minimum experience requirements laid down in the Ops Manual??
Ever been verbally assaulted by cabin crew / crew transport owners / ground staff / Ops staff / passengers / clients - you name it, over the way your company "operates" because you are the manager on the ground, at the front just because you are a pilot and happen to have fly occassionally???
Ever had to deal with all the buls**t of an Authority Ops inspection when they gloss over all the real "meat" presented to them and focus on the trivia of crossed T's and I's not dotted???
Ever had to work every day trying to balance the need to follow the regulations and keep people in a job???
Tell you what HIALS, put your money where your mouth is.......your present outfit must need Capts, you get me a job and I'll bring all my credibility with me, how's that.
International union.....don't make laugh. Strength in unity.....that takes commitment, organisation and some sense of belonging. Are you, if you are sitting fat dumb and happy in the left seat of a 744 or an A332 going stand up and be counted when your "colleague" flying a Shed on night freight needs your support because his boss is using veiled threats to force him to work outside the regulations???
You would get more loyalty and support working in a Bangkok whorehouse than in any airline. Not only will the CEO, beancounters and ambitious management pilots stab you in the back, but your ambitious / comfortable colleagues will look after No 1 every time.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It's time for me to round off now, because I feel I have said pretty much all that I need to say - further posts are merely going to end up as repitition.
Of my 30+ years in aviation, the first 7 of those were in G.A. in 2 different companies, and involved working as a charter/commuter pilot, and Flight Instructor.
My airline career has been with 5 different companies, so I have encountered the SAME problems some of you now complain of, as if you were the only ones to ever have been subjected to them!
None of my jobs ended as a result of termination on the employer's part. The answer to your questions, b777900 - "Are you the type to say
refuse to do it.
go on strike.
go slow.
work to rule.
vote with your feet, even if you do not have another job lined up to go to."
- are "Yes" to each (although the strike was not a strike as such - and it did cost me, and HIALS I believe, our jobs, and a great deal more. Do I regret it? No.)
As I stated to TDF380, some of you apparently lack the spine to make the hard decisions this profession REQUIRES, in spite of external pressures!
Quite simply, you shouldn't be occupying ANY seat at the front end of an aircraft, imo.
It's also interesting to note that 2 of the characters complaining the loudest, and making excuses for NOT being willing to make standards-based decisions, have also made the following comments:-
"perhaps you could resign from your airline so I could take your spot..", and,
"your present outfit must need Capts, you get me a job..".
Perhaps there's a message there - you've both ended up in the companies that you DESERVE!
To the majority of professional pilots who take it in their stride to make Safety based decisions, even when it means occasionally having to don the "flak jacket", Thank you for maintaining the standard required of Professional Pilots, and for helping stop "The Demise of the Professional Pilot".
Of my 30+ years in aviation, the first 7 of those were in G.A. in 2 different companies, and involved working as a charter/commuter pilot, and Flight Instructor.
My airline career has been with 5 different companies, so I have encountered the SAME problems some of you now complain of, as if you were the only ones to ever have been subjected to them!
None of my jobs ended as a result of termination on the employer's part. The answer to your questions, b777900 - "Are you the type to say
refuse to do it.
go on strike.
go slow.
work to rule.
vote with your feet, even if you do not have another job lined up to go to."
- are "Yes" to each (although the strike was not a strike as such - and it did cost me, and HIALS I believe, our jobs, and a great deal more. Do I regret it? No.)
As I stated to TDF380, some of you apparently lack the spine to make the hard decisions this profession REQUIRES, in spite of external pressures!
Quite simply, you shouldn't be occupying ANY seat at the front end of an aircraft, imo.
It's also interesting to note that 2 of the characters complaining the loudest, and making excuses for NOT being willing to make standards-based decisions, have also made the following comments:-
"perhaps you could resign from your airline so I could take your spot..", and,
"your present outfit must need Capts, you get me a job..".
Perhaps there's a message there - you've both ended up in the companies that you DESERVE!
To the majority of professional pilots who take it in their stride to make Safety based decisions, even when it means occasionally having to don the "flak jacket", Thank you for maintaining the standard required of Professional Pilots, and for helping stop "The Demise of the Professional Pilot".
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The Demise of the Professional Pilots Profession.
Incredible when you write a post on this forum, how certain individuals, without knowing you, have the arrogance to call you unprofessional.
I have no doubt about my professionalism. I have stood up to companys who required me to break the laws of aviation, and I have paid my due. This is why I am taking the time to write this post.
Some my have taken the title of my original post to mean pilots are becoming less professional. That is not what I meant, I meant the profession in general is diminishing, due to paycuts, conditions and hours required to work, as a result of airline management. However it seems to have evolved into personal attacks by some.
I question those who doubt my professionalism by simply saying, refuse, or leave the job as you are too unprofessional to continue as an airline captain.
What is the definition of fatique (from internet)
1. mental or physical exhaustion: extreme tiredness or weariness resulting from physical or mental activity
2. physiology inability to respond to stimulus: temporary inability of an organ or part such as a muscle or nerve cell to respond to a stimulus and function normally, following continuous activity or stimulation
3. inability to respond to situation: temporary inability of somebody to respond to a situation as a result of overexposure or excessive activity ( often used in combination )
compassion fatigue
Therefore if you were to excercise your duty as a professional pilot and stand down from doing a flight due to fatique (excessive tiredness) what repercussions would you expect.
Our airline as part of there cost cutting, is operating with minimum crew (pilots and flight attendants) therefore if I was to stand down often there would be no other crew to call out, resulting in the flight been cancelled, or posponed until the inbound crew took 12 hours rest.(we fly succesive nights)
Yet even 12 hours rest when your fatiqued may not be enough, It may take 3-5 days to recover (CAP371 RECOMMENDATIONS) from the heavy rosters, jet lag, which are now rostered, up to maximum duty times, and which we fly for months on end.
Would my contract be renewed.
What would my management say, 'What you cant operate because your tired'.
Its not as difinitive as a broken arm, flu, etc.
When does a tired pilot decide hes fatigued.
A captain has just had his contract terminated due to the above scenario)
So obviously all pilots and cabin crew of my airline, including this captain who has just been terminated (as he has operated under these circumstances for the last 3 years), are unprofessional.
Our managements answer was, if you cant work what we roster you, you are of no use to us.
I bet you have operated very tired at some stage of your career.
Therefore in reality you cannot simply put all the owness on the pilot. Management should be held accountable too, until they are things will not change.
Also I believe the only way things can improve is if the regulators overhauled the duty time limitations, or made the CAP 371 recommendations MANDATORY. After all that is there reason for existance.
As for the pay and conditions, I dont see that changing.
The Demise of the Professional Pilots Profession.
I have no doubt about my professionalism. I have stood up to companys who required me to break the laws of aviation, and I have paid my due. This is why I am taking the time to write this post.
Some my have taken the title of my original post to mean pilots are becoming less professional. That is not what I meant, I meant the profession in general is diminishing, due to paycuts, conditions and hours required to work, as a result of airline management. However it seems to have evolved into personal attacks by some.
I question those who doubt my professionalism by simply saying, refuse, or leave the job as you are too unprofessional to continue as an airline captain.
What is the definition of fatique (from internet)
1. mental or physical exhaustion: extreme tiredness or weariness resulting from physical or mental activity
2. physiology inability to respond to stimulus: temporary inability of an organ or part such as a muscle or nerve cell to respond to a stimulus and function normally, following continuous activity or stimulation
3. inability to respond to situation: temporary inability of somebody to respond to a situation as a result of overexposure or excessive activity ( often used in combination )
compassion fatigue
Therefore if you were to excercise your duty as a professional pilot and stand down from doing a flight due to fatique (excessive tiredness) what repercussions would you expect.
Our airline as part of there cost cutting, is operating with minimum crew (pilots and flight attendants) therefore if I was to stand down often there would be no other crew to call out, resulting in the flight been cancelled, or posponed until the inbound crew took 12 hours rest.(we fly succesive nights)
Yet even 12 hours rest when your fatiqued may not be enough, It may take 3-5 days to recover (CAP371 RECOMMENDATIONS) from the heavy rosters, jet lag, which are now rostered, up to maximum duty times, and which we fly for months on end.
Would my contract be renewed.
What would my management say, 'What you cant operate because your tired'.
Its not as difinitive as a broken arm, flu, etc.
When does a tired pilot decide hes fatigued.
A captain has just had his contract terminated due to the above scenario)
So obviously all pilots and cabin crew of my airline, including this captain who has just been terminated (as he has operated under these circumstances for the last 3 years), are unprofessional.
Our managements answer was, if you cant work what we roster you, you are of no use to us.
I bet you have operated very tired at some stage of your career.
Therefore in reality you cannot simply put all the owness on the pilot. Management should be held accountable too, until they are things will not change.
Also I believe the only way things can improve is if the regulators overhauled the duty time limitations, or made the CAP 371 recommendations MANDATORY. After all that is there reason for existance.
As for the pay and conditions, I dont see that changing.
The Demise of the Professional Pilots Profession.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Your initial posting was quite clear to me, and I agree unreservedly, TDF380, that our conditions of employment have been eroded.
But YOU are stating that because of the eroded conditions, you now fear for your job, and make your decisions BASED on that fear! eg. "Therefore if you were to excercise your duty as a professional pilot and stand down from doing a flight due to fatique (excessive tiredness) what repercussions would you expect."
You apparently know, very well, the definitions and results of fatigue, yet you plead, "therefore if I was to stand down often there would be no other crew to call out, resulting in the flight been cancelled, or posponed until the inbound crew took 12 hours rest.(we fly succesive nights)"
So what would happen if you ignored the fact that you were fatigued, and KNOWINGLY elected to fly, followed by the inevitable incident - or fatal ACCIDENT.
YOU would be the one held completely responsible for your stupid, UNPROFESSIONAL, deadly decision.
Your mindset is DANGEROUS, imo, and perhaps it is the fatigue and stress caused by your present job that is causing you to write these irrational arguments.
Or are just unwilling to accept the responsibility of your position?
If your patterns are as fatiguing as you say, and a majority of the other pilots agree, then a group of you should present your case to your scheduler.
Stop the buck passing, and act RESPONSIBLY.
Yes, our pay and conditions have deteriorated - but it is up to each of us to MAINTAIN the standard of Safety for which we are employed.
But YOU are stating that because of the eroded conditions, you now fear for your job, and make your decisions BASED on that fear! eg. "Therefore if you were to excercise your duty as a professional pilot and stand down from doing a flight due to fatique (excessive tiredness) what repercussions would you expect."
You apparently know, very well, the definitions and results of fatigue, yet you plead, "therefore if I was to stand down often there would be no other crew to call out, resulting in the flight been cancelled, or posponed until the inbound crew took 12 hours rest.(we fly succesive nights)"
So what would happen if you ignored the fact that you were fatigued, and KNOWINGLY elected to fly, followed by the inevitable incident - or fatal ACCIDENT.
YOU would be the one held completely responsible for your stupid, UNPROFESSIONAL, deadly decision.
Your mindset is DANGEROUS, imo, and perhaps it is the fatigue and stress caused by your present job that is causing you to write these irrational arguments.
Or are just unwilling to accept the responsibility of your position?
If your patterns are as fatiguing as you say, and a majority of the other pilots agree, then a group of you should present your case to your scheduler.
Stop the buck passing, and act RESPONSIBLY.
Yes, our pay and conditions have deteriorated - but it is up to each of us to MAINTAIN the standard of Safety for which we are employed.
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You surprise me Kaptin M.
You write it in your post but still don´t see it:
It is without a doubt managments responsebility NOT to schedule their crew so that they end up in the condition you mentioned above! And of course: Where is the CAA?
You write it in your post but still don´t see it:
Your mindset is DANGEROUS, imo, and perhaps it is the fatigue and stress caused by your present job that is causing you to write these irrational arguments.
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the issues that tdf380 raise are issues in just about every industry - from truck driving to aircraft engineering. working 12 hour night shifts fault finding defects on wide body aircraft is NOT conducive to high quality! i've read this whole thread, and there are many comments like :
Many pilots in the company I’m with are angry and are looking to leave, yet they can’t find a better job to go to at the moment’ says it all really.
so why does one continue on with being a pilot in such 'terrible' conditions? it's simple - leave. find something else, and be happy with that. make your decision and stick with it. don't bring everyone else down to your issue. maybe you could join the police, earn crap pay, work crap hours, be spat on/stabbed/shot at, be the focus of a media circus when you shoot/beat someone. being a police officer is a respected profession. it's not hard to find a 'better' job - there is always one just over the fence, where the grass is greener, cause apparantly it's watered more often. or maybe they just use greener paint to cover the scratches. you won't know by sitting on here ranting. go for it.
Many pilots in the company I’m with are angry and are looking to leave, yet they can’t find a better job to go to at the moment’ says it all really.
so why does one continue on with being a pilot in such 'terrible' conditions? it's simple - leave. find something else, and be happy with that. make your decision and stick with it. don't bring everyone else down to your issue. maybe you could join the police, earn crap pay, work crap hours, be spat on/stabbed/shot at, be the focus of a media circus when you shoot/beat someone. being a police officer is a respected profession. it's not hard to find a 'better' job - there is always one just over the fence, where the grass is greener, cause apparantly it's watered more often. or maybe they just use greener paint to cover the scratches. you won't know by sitting on here ranting. go for it.
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The CAA will be there when required.
For instance an accident.
Until then, which is what we are all waiting for, the conditions of our working conditions will continue eroding.
This job is an accident waiting to happen, remember you've read it here!
All the high preachers above like HIALS and Kaptin M NZ Marty will be put to their own test sooner or later, when their conditions are going to erode, as we know it has already begun.
Look at the BA pension for instance!!
And as for operating safely? I will for as long as I can, but...... I have never promised a rose garden to anyone!
For instance an accident.
Until then, which is what we are all waiting for, the conditions of our working conditions will continue eroding.
This job is an accident waiting to happen, remember you've read it here!
All the high preachers above like HIALS and Kaptin M NZ Marty will be put to their own test sooner or later, when their conditions are going to erode, as we know it has already begun.
Look at the BA pension for instance!!
And as for operating safely? I will for as long as I can, but...... I have never promised a rose garden to anyone!
nzmarty,
That has to be the most pathetic answer to the problem. If you feel something is wrong you should try to improve it. If you've tried and failed then you have every right to tell people about and decide whether to move on. Saying nothing and moving on merely leaves yourself in possibly the same situation
That has to be the most pathetic answer to the problem. If you feel something is wrong you should try to improve it. If you've tried and failed then you have every right to tell people about and decide whether to move on. Saying nothing and moving on merely leaves yourself in possibly the same situation
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Bubblewrap
Kaptin M lives in bubblewrap.
He makes this statement about me, without knowing me, or apparently having read and understood the post:
Try reading it again, SLOWLY. That way you might get the gist of it. Oh, and check your PMs.
If not, have you ever considered that some managers are actually fighting the pilot's fight? Are taking the problems and complaints to the Board?
He makes this statement about me, without knowing me, or apparently having read and understood the post:
It's also interesting to note that 2 of the characters complaining the loudest, and making excuses for NOT being willing to make standards-based decisions, have also made the following comments:-
If not, have you ever considered that some managers are actually fighting the pilot's fight? Are taking the problems and complaints to the Board?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Kaptin M lives in the same world as the rest of you, and has had to, and occasionally still does front the same problems you do.
Your pm was replied to almost 24 hours ago, TRSS - try checking your own, before engaging mouth.
Because I don`t know you, my opinion is unbiased!
For those who say the regulatory authority has to step in, and do something about - I agree, BUT they have to be made aware of the problem.
An anonymous letter - from perhaps several of you, individually - describing the problem patterns, the fatigue experienced, the threats you believe some management are making, and your concern for Safety, has to be the first step.
However, the resolution to the problem lies solely in YOUR hands. Complaining on an anonymous forum won`t achieve results - unless the airline company concerned is named.
An accident WON`T bring any resolution - the finding will inevitably end up as "Pilot Error", which would be correct, if you are KNOWINGLY flying fatigued, or accepting u/s aircraft, not adhering to minimum rest rules, not following de-icing holdover times, etc, etc.
Your pm was replied to almost 24 hours ago, TRSS - try checking your own, before engaging mouth.
Because I don`t know you, my opinion is unbiased!
For those who say the regulatory authority has to step in, and do something about - I agree, BUT they have to be made aware of the problem.
An anonymous letter - from perhaps several of you, individually - describing the problem patterns, the fatigue experienced, the threats you believe some management are making, and your concern for Safety, has to be the first step.
However, the resolution to the problem lies solely in YOUR hands. Complaining on an anonymous forum won`t achieve results - unless the airline company concerned is named.
An accident WON`T bring any resolution - the finding will inevitably end up as "Pilot Error", which would be correct, if you are KNOWINGLY flying fatigued, or accepting u/s aircraft, not adhering to minimum rest rules, not following de-icing holdover times, etc, etc.
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“Kaptin M lives in the same world as the rest of you.”
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Dear Kaptin M. Some of your arguments seem to prove otherwise:
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“For those who say the regulatory authority has to step in, and do something about - I agree, BUT they have to be made aware of the problem”.
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Do you really believe they don’t know?? They do, and they turn a blind eye.
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”However, the resolution to the problem lies solely in YOUR hands. Complaining on an anonymous forum won`t achieve results - unless the airline company concerned is named”.
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So you believe naming one of the (too) many crappy companies on the same anonymous forum will help?? It only helps if you make it public, but then the messenger get’s shot.
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”An accident WON`T bring any resolution - the finding will inevitably end up as "Pilot Error", which would be correct, if you are KNOWINGLY flying fatigued, or accepting u/s aircraft, not adhering to minimum rest rules, not following de-icing holdover times, etc, etc”.
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Very naïve. Who defines “fatigued”, “minimum rest”, “HOT times” ? You, or the company, or the regulator? If you know or feel wiser and decide accordingly, is this then working against eventual pilot error, or working against the company? You see, it’s not always us beeing blackmailed to eventually breach a rule. It’s more often the rules who breach common sense and airmenship. To stand up against crappy but established and sanctioned rules is definetly a different story, in different companies and different regions.
Your absolute disqualification of some comments in this forum is just arrogant.
The soldier at the dirty front can either follow his orders without questioning them, or follow the Geneva convention and face mutiny charges. To leave him alone with the choice or blame, without going after the ones who give orders, is cynical, (qed Abu Gurair).
That’s exactly what happens in aviation. Unfortunately I have no instant solution, some of you are right when stating that by simply complain on this forum we don’t get any further. However pretending you always stood up against such pressure and others should do just so, makes one doubt about the entry-quote.
“Kaptin M lives in the same world as the rest of you.”
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Dear Kaptin M. Some of your arguments seem to prove otherwise:
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“For those who say the regulatory authority has to step in, and do something about - I agree, BUT they have to be made aware of the problem”.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really believe they don’t know?? They do, and they turn a blind eye.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
”However, the resolution to the problem lies solely in YOUR hands. Complaining on an anonymous forum won`t achieve results - unless the airline company concerned is named”.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you believe naming one of the (too) many crappy companies on the same anonymous forum will help?? It only helps if you make it public, but then the messenger get’s shot.
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”An accident WON`T bring any resolution - the finding will inevitably end up as "Pilot Error", which would be correct, if you are KNOWINGLY flying fatigued, or accepting u/s aircraft, not adhering to minimum rest rules, not following de-icing holdover times, etc, etc”.
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Very naïve. Who defines “fatigued”, “minimum rest”, “HOT times” ? You, or the company, or the regulator? If you know or feel wiser and decide accordingly, is this then working against eventual pilot error, or working against the company? You see, it’s not always us beeing blackmailed to eventually breach a rule. It’s more often the rules who breach common sense and airmenship. To stand up against crappy but established and sanctioned rules is definetly a different story, in different companies and different regions.
Your absolute disqualification of some comments in this forum is just arrogant.
The soldier at the dirty front can either follow his orders without questioning them, or follow the Geneva convention and face mutiny charges. To leave him alone with the choice or blame, without going after the ones who give orders, is cynical, (qed Abu Gurair).
That’s exactly what happens in aviation. Unfortunately I have no instant solution, some of you are right when stating that by simply complain on this forum we don’t get any further. However pretending you always stood up against such pressure and others should do just so, makes one doubt about the entry-quote.
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Cap M,
Although you may have had some validity to what you have said earlier on, the further you went the worst it sounded.
Clearly you have no REAL concept as to what most of us are having to put up with and frankly I am getting a little tired of the attitude you are displaying.
No one has ever told us what this profession is gonna turn into eventually. Therefore we find ourselves in the formative times of the next version of it, where the impossible has already begun happening and people like myself and others are getting pushed to limits one way or another.
Your outright dismissal of our discussions here is to say the least just arrogant and befitting someone in antipilotmanagement.
But, don't worry because the subject will eventually be carried by the unions that we pay to upkeep, if it doesn't in fact end up in industrial action. Albeit it seems to be taking a little time, but I am sure it will get there.
Although you may have had some validity to what you have said earlier on, the further you went the worst it sounded.
Clearly you have no REAL concept as to what most of us are having to put up with and frankly I am getting a little tired of the attitude you are displaying.
No one has ever told us what this profession is gonna turn into eventually. Therefore we find ourselves in the formative times of the next version of it, where the impossible has already begun happening and people like myself and others are getting pushed to limits one way or another.
Your outright dismissal of our discussions here is to say the least just arrogant and befitting someone in antipilotmanagement.
But, don't worry because the subject will eventually be carried by the unions that we pay to upkeep, if it doesn't in fact end up in industrial action. Albeit it seems to be taking a little time, but I am sure it will get there.
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I know I might sound naive, but how about the ICAO or the IATA, don't they have rules governing such issues? Maybe they will be able to set more reasonable limits. Of course I do not know what the scope of these organisations are, so don't blame me for anything!
Cheers
guybrush
Cheers
guybrush
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To all those moaning about their profession you should try walking a mile in my shoes. Seriously.
After that who cares ? you're a mile away and you've got my shoes.
Thanks Billy
After that who cares ? you're a mile away and you've got my shoes.
Thanks Billy