The Demise of the Professional Pilot
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I haven't read all of the thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what's been said already. Sunfish and others, with rather ham-fisted attempts at irony, you comment on how easy the job is, and how you know this to be so because when you've been allowed to visit the flight deck, the crew are doing not very much at all.
I would have thought that someone as obviously as intelligent as yourself (sorry, couldn't resist an attempt at some ham-fisted irony of my own) would have quite quickly come to the conclusion that you wouldn't have been invited on to the flight deck unless it was in a period in the cruise when not very much was happening at all.
I can remember flying with a captain a very long time ago who said that the greatest compliment he had ever been paid was by a five year old who visited the cockpit and loudly proclaimed: "But you're not doing anything!" He said that if he appeared to be not doing anything, he was obviously ahead of the game, which is exactly where he always wanted to be.
People have often asked me whether it's boring flying long haul. I have two answers to that question. The first: "Yes, but you have no idea how much work we put into keeping it boring, 'cause in an aeroplane, boring is good." The other, to people I know a little better, is: "So, if you're flying off on your annual holiday, who would you prefer at the controls of the aeroplane taking you there, two pilots who are bored to snores because nothing out of the ordinary is happening, (quite possibly because they've carefully planned for it to be so), or two guys on the very edge of their seats barely coping with a succession of critical problems?"
The most frequent reply to that last question is: "I'd never thought of it that way."
My wife just underwent a very complex operation and the surgeon gave her a video of the op. as a memento. He made it look like a piece of the proverbial, a completely no-sweat procedure that went without a hitch. I know that that particular procedure wasn't even possible as little as six years ago (thanks in part to laproscopes (sp?) and micro cameras).
I'm not likening my job to that of a surgeon's, but I think the similarities in the perceptions of an observer to a job done with skill and minimal dramatics holds true.
I would have thought that someone as obviously as intelligent as yourself (sorry, couldn't resist an attempt at some ham-fisted irony of my own) would have quite quickly come to the conclusion that you wouldn't have been invited on to the flight deck unless it was in a period in the cruise when not very much was happening at all.
I can remember flying with a captain a very long time ago who said that the greatest compliment he had ever been paid was by a five year old who visited the cockpit and loudly proclaimed: "But you're not doing anything!" He said that if he appeared to be not doing anything, he was obviously ahead of the game, which is exactly where he always wanted to be.
People have often asked me whether it's boring flying long haul. I have two answers to that question. The first: "Yes, but you have no idea how much work we put into keeping it boring, 'cause in an aeroplane, boring is good." The other, to people I know a little better, is: "So, if you're flying off on your annual holiday, who would you prefer at the controls of the aeroplane taking you there, two pilots who are bored to snores because nothing out of the ordinary is happening, (quite possibly because they've carefully planned for it to be so), or two guys on the very edge of their seats barely coping with a succession of critical problems?"
The most frequent reply to that last question is: "I'd never thought of it that way."
My wife just underwent a very complex operation and the surgeon gave her a video of the op. as a memento. He made it look like a piece of the proverbial, a completely no-sweat procedure that went without a hitch. I know that that particular procedure wasn't even possible as little as six years ago (thanks in part to laproscopes (sp?) and micro cameras).
I'm not likening my job to that of a surgeon's, but I think the similarities in the perceptions of an observer to a job done with skill and minimal dramatics holds true.
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I very nearly became a commercial pilot - i didn't just think about it, i actually had sponsorship with a an airline, but ultimately decided against it. With that in mind....
Benthere just summed it up really neatly for me
"Would I trade my experience with flying for anything else?
Absolutely not.
Would I, as a young man today, given current prospects go into professional aviation?
Absolutely not. "
back in the day, I'd have gone for it. But this brave new world is not a happy one for the airline pilot. I was told this by pilots. I put a lot of thought into it myself and came up with that conclusion independently. And i think its only going to get worse.
Do i get bored at work ? yep
Did I nevertheless make the right choice ? for me, definitely
Benthere just summed it up really neatly for me
"Would I trade my experience with flying for anything else?
Absolutely not.
Would I, as a young man today, given current prospects go into professional aviation?
Absolutely not. "
back in the day, I'd have gone for it. But this brave new world is not a happy one for the airline pilot. I was told this by pilots. I put a lot of thought into it myself and came up with that conclusion independently. And i think its only going to get worse.
Do i get bored at work ? yep
Did I nevertheless make the right choice ? for me, definitely
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the following is not ironic, sarcastic, or anything else, just plain speaking.
I am a fairly recently qualified PPL and sometimes SLF.
From my humble perspective flying comercial aircraft seems an incredibly complex operation.
The level of understanding and mental agility required to both plan and execute flights safely and punctually seems to me to be enormous.
To say that pilots can't be compared to the proffesions is unbelievable nonsense, I'm in no way nocking GPs
but when they get stuck they refer to a specialist, some weeks later at that, wouldnt fancy that kind of response during an airborn emergency!
I just dont get why anybody reading this forum would seek to be dismisive of what is involved in being a profesional pilot.
So for what little its worth, profesional pilots you have my utmost respect (and that of every other private flyer I have ever talked to)
I am a fairly recently qualified PPL and sometimes SLF.
From my humble perspective flying comercial aircraft seems an incredibly complex operation.
The level of understanding and mental agility required to both plan and execute flights safely and punctually seems to me to be enormous.
To say that pilots can't be compared to the proffesions is unbelievable nonsense, I'm in no way nocking GPs
but when they get stuck they refer to a specialist, some weeks later at that, wouldnt fancy that kind of response during an airborn emergency!
I just dont get why anybody reading this forum would seek to be dismisive of what is involved in being a profesional pilot.
So for what little its worth, profesional pilots you have my utmost respect (and that of every other private flyer I have ever talked to)
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Unfortunately in the past passengers have visited us in the cruise which is "as it may look" our quiet period. They seem to have this perception that we are not doing anything, but we are. We are monitoring the equipment on a 35k ton aircraft carrying 300 people to ensure nothing goes wrong and in the event that it does go wrong we are ready and skilled enough to handle the situation. What visitors do not see is the workload before and during departure also the workload on arrival and after landing. They do not see our attention to detail nor our ability to carry out many tasks at one time using our brains and manual dexterity. I studied very hard for my profession and I also have a degree in physics. Believe me it is harder to be a pilot.
The reason why the profession (including controllers) is being belittled is due to air transport being safer, more people use it as a frequent way of travelling and the management see us as expendable staff. I hope one day that my bosses will be on board when we have a decompression over the pond with a subsequent engine failure and divert. I'm sure then they will value my profession then. For those of you who do not value our profession, then why do you fly? Could you deal with one of the revers thrusters deploying after take off? We can because we are highly trained professionals. Our profession is compared to other high ranking professions due to responsibility not qualifications. Look up the defination of "professional". One definition is "engaging in an activity as a means of livelehood" Profession means "an occupation requiring special training".
Our job as professional pilots is to get safely from a to b, our special training allows us to do this and deal with any unusual situation which may arise during our trip.
I would not advise any young person to come into the aviation business due to the way we are treated. 30 years ago when I first joined it was great, highly admired and a great way of dating the girls. Not any more.
Rgds
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The reason why the profession (including controllers) is being belittled is due to air transport being safer, more people use it as a frequent way of travelling and the management see us as expendable staff. I hope one day that my bosses will be on board when we have a decompression over the pond with a subsequent engine failure and divert. I'm sure then they will value my profession then. For those of you who do not value our profession, then why do you fly? Could you deal with one of the revers thrusters deploying after take off? We can because we are highly trained professionals. Our profession is compared to other high ranking professions due to responsibility not qualifications. Look up the defination of "professional". One definition is "engaging in an activity as a means of livelehood" Profession means "an occupation requiring special training".
Our job as professional pilots is to get safely from a to b, our special training allows us to do this and deal with any unusual situation which may arise during our trip.
I would not advise any young person to come into the aviation business due to the way we are treated. 30 years ago when I first joined it was great, highly admired and a great way of dating the girls. Not any more.
Rgds
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380 SPOT ON.
I believe that the problem outlined here has become increasingly worse over the past 5 years or so.
I embarked on flying training in the late 90's where even then being an Airline Pilot was one of the best paid professions around. Today I feel that Airline Pilots are still regarded as being highly trained professionals. I have many friend s that come from respected professions such as doctor, lawyer, surgeon's etc and they are all in awe and fascinated by the role of an Airline Pilot. Yet I could earn the same amount labouring on a building site.
It must be recognised that the initial and recurrent training for a pilot is a very specialised skill and the experience held by Airline Pilot's today is a credit to their professional aptitude. Therefore why are salaries and conditions going down. Many pilots I know are not even proud of their profession any more and consider themselves to be a lower status to many other professions out there. This attitude has to stop. It is these people that are willing to lie down and take the s*!t, work for free, pay for type ratings etc that will destroy our profession.
I have noticed that in small flying clubs there are very few young guns coming through aspiring to be airline pilots any more. I know many cadets from a major british airline have now left flying to embark on other carriers. If I was a school leaver now I would not go into flying I would pursue more lucrative carriers.
I hate to sound like a money grabbing communist but good T & C are the key to a happy home life and carrier.
380 also made comments on the way companies put pressure on crew to push the limits on different aspects of their jobs. I myself have worked for some real cowboy outfits (corporate airline in Oxfordshire being one) I have witnessed crews being intimidated by just one guy - The Ops Manager. Because the O M was friends with the MD he thought he had the power to make the crews work out of duty, non-stop standby cancel leave etc. Whenever a crew member contested this the O M just went running to his little MD friend with a fabricated story and the crew member would be labelled as a militant and disciplined. In one case a young FO that stood up for himself over moral and safety matters was sacked. I know that all the other crews aggreed with the FO but didn't speak up when it mattered. Therefore the poor young lad had no back up, not even from the cheif pilot.
The problem is that there are to many soft guys that will just stick their heads in the sand and let the poor conditions get worse. They all moan but never do anything about it.
I am not militant myself. I realise that we work for someone else and airlines are businesses. Therefore there has to be a capitalist mentality. But if pilots stop doing things like offer, I repeat offer to pay for type ratings airlines will realise that type rated guys are hard to come by in the big scheme of things and therefore the airline will fear the cost of retraining new guys. This would mean airlines would be nice to the crews to keep them happy so they stay. It would also stop the guys getting there first jobs and having to pay for type ratings after they have already sold their souls to the banks!
Its the old ideal of you treat us nice, we'll treat you nice - every ones happy in a freindly profitable company.
Poor T & C's can kill a firm. People start bitching and moaning which winds every one elso up. Also people are less willing to put their necks on the line to get the job done.
May be I'm living in dolly daydream land and my happy comfort zone will never be achieved but I just think that a happy workforce equals a very productive workforce.
I believe that the problem outlined here has become increasingly worse over the past 5 years or so.
I embarked on flying training in the late 90's where even then being an Airline Pilot was one of the best paid professions around. Today I feel that Airline Pilots are still regarded as being highly trained professionals. I have many friend s that come from respected professions such as doctor, lawyer, surgeon's etc and they are all in awe and fascinated by the role of an Airline Pilot. Yet I could earn the same amount labouring on a building site.
It must be recognised that the initial and recurrent training for a pilot is a very specialised skill and the experience held by Airline Pilot's today is a credit to their professional aptitude. Therefore why are salaries and conditions going down. Many pilots I know are not even proud of their profession any more and consider themselves to be a lower status to many other professions out there. This attitude has to stop. It is these people that are willing to lie down and take the s*!t, work for free, pay for type ratings etc that will destroy our profession.
I have noticed that in small flying clubs there are very few young guns coming through aspiring to be airline pilots any more. I know many cadets from a major british airline have now left flying to embark on other carriers. If I was a school leaver now I would not go into flying I would pursue more lucrative carriers.
I hate to sound like a money grabbing communist but good T & C are the key to a happy home life and carrier.
380 also made comments on the way companies put pressure on crew to push the limits on different aspects of their jobs. I myself have worked for some real cowboy outfits (corporate airline in Oxfordshire being one) I have witnessed crews being intimidated by just one guy - The Ops Manager. Because the O M was friends with the MD he thought he had the power to make the crews work out of duty, non-stop standby cancel leave etc. Whenever a crew member contested this the O M just went running to his little MD friend with a fabricated story and the crew member would be labelled as a militant and disciplined. In one case a young FO that stood up for himself over moral and safety matters was sacked. I know that all the other crews aggreed with the FO but didn't speak up when it mattered. Therefore the poor young lad had no back up, not even from the cheif pilot.
The problem is that there are to many soft guys that will just stick their heads in the sand and let the poor conditions get worse. They all moan but never do anything about it.
I am not militant myself. I realise that we work for someone else and airlines are businesses. Therefore there has to be a capitalist mentality. But if pilots stop doing things like offer, I repeat offer to pay for type ratings airlines will realise that type rated guys are hard to come by in the big scheme of things and therefore the airline will fear the cost of retraining new guys. This would mean airlines would be nice to the crews to keep them happy so they stay. It would also stop the guys getting there first jobs and having to pay for type ratings after they have already sold their souls to the banks!
Its the old ideal of you treat us nice, we'll treat you nice - every ones happy in a freindly profitable company.
Poor T & C's can kill a firm. People start bitching and moaning which winds every one elso up. Also people are less willing to put their necks on the line to get the job done.
May be I'm living in dolly daydream land and my happy comfort zone will never be achieved but I just think that a happy workforce equals a very productive workforce.
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Sad to read the comments of so many who quite evidently no longer enjoy their chosen career as professional pilots.
At 51 years of age, 18,000+ hours I've certainly had my share of .. "excitement" .. as well as my share of career-related aggravation. Airline life today is certainly not what it has been. No question however, for me it's all been extremely worthwhile and entirely satisfying. Wouldn't trade it for anything.
I cannot relate to some of the younger FOs I fly with who seem so disgruntled with life. Right seat on an Airbus is still a pretty enviable position, and the view from the office is spectacular ... if you bother to look outside once in awhile.
And still, to paraphrase Ernest K. Gann, the subtle pleasures derived from a well handled approach and landing under difficult conditions are still a source of extreme satisfaction.
Sorry so many chaps seem to have lost that pleasure.
At 51 years of age, 18,000+ hours I've certainly had my share of .. "excitement" .. as well as my share of career-related aggravation. Airline life today is certainly not what it has been. No question however, for me it's all been extremely worthwhile and entirely satisfying. Wouldn't trade it for anything.
I cannot relate to some of the younger FOs I fly with who seem so disgruntled with life. Right seat on an Airbus is still a pretty enviable position, and the view from the office is spectacular ... if you bother to look outside once in awhile.
And still, to paraphrase Ernest K. Gann, the subtle pleasures derived from a well handled approach and landing under difficult conditions are still a source of extreme satisfaction.
Sorry so many chaps seem to have lost that pleasure.
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HMMMMMMM.......
Kaptain M
You are very much correct in your answer.
But then again I have always said, those that don't, can only imagine they understand. I know it, you know it, and anyone else that sits in the pointy end knows it. The rest are imposters.
Why waste the time with them, I don't any more. I got tired trying to explain something that I know they will never understand. I just smile and shake my head, and say you can only imagine.
You are very much correct in your answer.
But then again I have always said, those that don't, can only imagine they understand. I know it, you know it, and anyone else that sits in the pointy end knows it. The rest are imposters.
Why waste the time with them, I don't any more. I got tired trying to explain something that I know they will never understand. I just smile and shake my head, and say you can only imagine.
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Hello all!
I just want to comment on some points.
Not everyone will be happy with flying. Not everyone will be happy to be a lawyer or a cook or an engineer or a manager or a plumber. Accordingly, those who left piloting could be those who simply found that flying isn't their cup of tea. They have every right not be satisfied in it and leave it when they wish (assuming they can), but I kindly ask them not to blame the job for that, it negatively affects us pilot wannabes.
Also, why do you always compare flying to jobs you lable "professions"? What's wrong with a bus drivers or plumbers or waiters. They are humans like you and me and there is nothing wrong with these jobs (lets not forget that some of us were/are in these jobs at some point of our lives). Every person works and earns a living and we should show some respect for that whether it is a plumber or pilot.
cheers
guybrush
I just want to comment on some points.
Not everyone will be happy with flying. Not everyone will be happy to be a lawyer or a cook or an engineer or a manager or a plumber. Accordingly, those who left piloting could be those who simply found that flying isn't their cup of tea. They have every right not be satisfied in it and leave it when they wish (assuming they can), but I kindly ask them not to blame the job for that, it negatively affects us pilot wannabes.
Also, why do you always compare flying to jobs you lable "professions"? What's wrong with a bus drivers or plumbers or waiters. They are humans like you and me and there is nothing wrong with these jobs (lets not forget that some of us were/are in these jobs at some point of our lives). Every person works and earns a living and we should show some respect for that whether it is a plumber or pilot.
cheers
guybrush
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GUYBRUSH
In this regard I agree, we are all people trying to make a living.
But, least we forget. As a pilot, or an aspiring pilot in the states, for you to be employed by any major carrier, fractional operation, or corporation, in addition to your ATPL, you will also require a degree from a university.
The operative word being "in addition to"
After University expense and expense of ATPL, to include time, you would have a better career putting you expertise toward a career that is quite frankly not subject to the level of sacrifice of aviation.
I love to fly and always will, but at mid career, I look at the sacrfice, and can say after the continued degridation of T&C the career is not one I would choose, but the passion lives on.
I wouldnt try to stear someone away from their dreams, only offer insight.
But, least we forget. As a pilot, or an aspiring pilot in the states, for you to be employed by any major carrier, fractional operation, or corporation, in addition to your ATPL, you will also require a degree from a university.
The operative word being "in addition to"
After University expense and expense of ATPL, to include time, you would have a better career putting you expertise toward a career that is quite frankly not subject to the level of sacrifice of aviation.
I love to fly and always will, but at mid career, I look at the sacrfice, and can say after the continued degridation of T&C the career is not one I would choose, but the passion lives on.
I wouldnt try to stear someone away from their dreams, only offer insight.
Rat5 and other pilots' comments were excellent.
Many laymen who comment on Pprune forums realize it and often admit it when they are a bit "unaware" of other professions' high demands, realities and decision-making, required by the one profession to which thousands of Ppruners belong. Could it be an actual background in higher-performance IFR flying (not just in Florida), which requires very much difficult study, testing, application of procedures (both in the sim and real airplane) and judgement (which can not always be taught), plus a competent management team which does not force pilots to fly unairworthy machines, in order to create the desired impressions? The aircraft which thousands of us fly have no automation, nor FMC and only two pilots. A guy I flew with a few days ago recently had one of two engines go to pieces right when they lifted off from the runway. There are no buttons to push to make the plane fly, whether with one or two engines, just a crammed layout of switches and gauges, sort of like a BAC-111.
Others here on Pprune combine ignorance with condescension and a bit of arrogance. What a classic combination.
This is an equal opportunity business. Anyone is welcome to go earn the qualifications and compete with thousands of other applicants for limited openings. As was said somewhere years ago, in response to wannabes who complain about the (now ever-shrinking) salaries at major airlines, you might die while working for the (or unwilling to join?) military or in the civilian world, just to build up a competitive background. I suspect that many wannabes click on to Pprune just to try and get even with those who made the early decision to work their butts/bums off, costing many thousands of dollars/pounds, and were very fortunate with timing, the economy and their ability to pass many medical exams, which never stop (like bad weather) coming around.
As for the purported comments by some laymen that pilots just sit there during cruise and discuss the female anatomy (
), a furloughed Delta pilot told me in person Thursday night at DFW that he gives sim and line checks to brand-new FOs at a US regional carrier which flies CRJs. A recent new guy tried to quit his career as (CPA) accountant and earned quickly all of his ratings-but then worked for the (in?)famous GULFSTREAM AIRLINES flying Beech 1900s in Florida. Did he also pay for the FO experience? Anyway, the very unfortunate guy did not pass either sim training or line flying because, despite a little flying in a twin turboprop, he had flown very little IFR, or at least real approaches, based on what the Instructor Pilot told me. Add on to that your first exposure to an FMC (whether a good tng syllabus, I have no idea), a rushed groundschool + sim schedule (maybe tighter training budgets due to higher fuel prices?), followed by a much faster turbofan and it could easily be overwhelming. And so we return to where we simply sit on our rear end in cruise flight (MELs, systems which don't quite look right, adequate fuel for the growing weather?)...how about on 5 legs in weather during a (very common) 12-hour duty period, with almost no chance to eat without compounding the next already delayed departure for 115 passengers, who are now waiting on your hungry/tired crew at your third aircraft of the day (assuming that we have a guaranteed meal break?), requiring another very thorough "originating preflight"? 
The words arrogance and ignorance for many laymens' assumptions glow like a neon sign on a 'rainy night in Georgia'.
Many laymen who comment on Pprune forums realize it and often admit it when they are a bit "unaware" of other professions' high demands, realities and decision-making, required by the one profession to which thousands of Ppruners belong. Could it be an actual background in higher-performance IFR flying (not just in Florida), which requires very much difficult study, testing, application of procedures (both in the sim and real airplane) and judgement (which can not always be taught), plus a competent management team which does not force pilots to fly unairworthy machines, in order to create the desired impressions? The aircraft which thousands of us fly have no automation, nor FMC and only two pilots. A guy I flew with a few days ago recently had one of two engines go to pieces right when they lifted off from the runway. There are no buttons to push to make the plane fly, whether with one or two engines, just a crammed layout of switches and gauges, sort of like a BAC-111.
Others here on Pprune combine ignorance with condescension and a bit of arrogance. What a classic combination.
This is an equal opportunity business. Anyone is welcome to go earn the qualifications and compete with thousands of other applicants for limited openings. As was said somewhere years ago, in response to wannabes who complain about the (now ever-shrinking) salaries at major airlines, you might die while working for the (or unwilling to join?) military or in the civilian world, just to build up a competitive background. I suspect that many wannabes click on to Pprune just to try and get even with those who made the early decision to work their butts/bums off, costing many thousands of dollars/pounds, and were very fortunate with timing, the economy and their ability to pass many medical exams, which never stop (like bad weather) coming around.
As for the purported comments by some laymen that pilots just sit there during cruise and discuss the female anatomy (
), a furloughed Delta pilot told me in person Thursday night at DFW that he gives sim and line checks to brand-new FOs at a US regional carrier which flies CRJs. A recent new guy tried to quit his career as (CPA) accountant and earned quickly all of his ratings-but then worked for the (in?)famous GULFSTREAM AIRLINES flying Beech 1900s in Florida. Did he also pay for the FO experience? Anyway, the very unfortunate guy did not pass either sim training or line flying because, despite a little flying in a twin turboprop, he had flown very little IFR, or at least real approaches, based on what the Instructor Pilot told me. Add on to that your first exposure to an FMC (whether a good tng syllabus, I have no idea), a rushed groundschool + sim schedule (maybe tighter training budgets due to higher fuel prices?), followed by a much faster turbofan and it could easily be overwhelming. And so we return to where we simply sit on our rear end in cruise flight (MELs, systems which don't quite look right, adequate fuel for the growing weather?)...how about on 5 legs in weather during a (very common) 12-hour duty period, with almost no chance to eat without compounding the next already delayed departure for 115 passengers, who are now waiting on your hungry/tired crew at your third aircraft of the day (assuming that we have a guaranteed meal break?), requiring another very thorough "originating preflight"? The words arrogance and ignorance for many laymens' assumptions glow like a neon sign on a 'rainy night in Georgia'.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 6th Feb 2005 at 04:06.
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Guybrush
I would hazard a guess that 95% of those who complain still love flying.
The problem is that we came into a profession (note;profession) with certain expectations based on observation.
We expected the basics to remain the same or even improve gradually over time.
The thing is, having made a significant investment in money, time, and effort, we have found that recently things have gone to hell in a basket.
That is valid cause for complaint no matter how dedicated you are.
I call it a profession because it requires very specialist training, and it takes about ( and often more than) 7 years to become adequately trained and experienced to command anything other than small aircraft.
I would hazard a guess that 95% of those who complain still love flying.
The problem is that we came into a profession (note;profession) with certain expectations based on observation.
We expected the basics to remain the same or even improve gradually over time.
The thing is, having made a significant investment in money, time, and effort, we have found that recently things have gone to hell in a basket.
That is valid cause for complaint no matter how dedicated you are.
I call it a profession because it requires very specialist training, and it takes about ( and often more than) 7 years to become adequately trained and experienced to command anything other than small aircraft.
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It seems the majority of the replies to my original post agree, or has experienced the eroding of pay and conditions as I have.
Firstly I did not write this post expecting the CEO’s, airline owners, or management to read my concerns and to change things. But I needed to vent my anger and concerns, and hear what others thought of the way the industry was going.
Safety Guy
Yes things are that bad with my Airline and I believe many others. If I was to stand down, or refuse to go into Captains discretion my contract would be terminated. Maybe not on paper for that reason, but I would be down the road, or labeled a trouble maker with management gunning for me. Its not by choice I fly fatigued, it’s to keep my job.
In regard to retirement plans our company does not have one. Is that another eroding of conditions, of coarse I’ve read many reports of people loosing their retirement funds. Are you protected if an airline declares itself bankrupt, or goes into chapter 11, or just states they do not have sufficient funds to payout everyone’s retirement fund due to a bad investment.
Joyce Tick
When you cannot stand yourself or your crew down due to fatigue,
When you cannot refuse to extend your duty time into ‘Commanders Discretion’,
When you cannot refuse to take an aircraft with a known fault, (illegal but operationally safe)
When you cannot take extra fuel above the computer generated flight plan,
All without intimidation and threat of contract termination. You can hardly make professional decisions, more like compromises to save your job and career, to the detriment of safety to the aircraft and your passengers.
Also Dogma is right, it is more difficult to act professionally when your fatigued, low moral.
Guybrush
Yes they should reduce management’s huge salaries and lead by example. They should not increase their salaries, and / or vote themselves bonuses while preaching to their staff how revenues are down, and pay cuts are necessary, and no it would not solve the company’s financial problems.
The fact is airline management should be increasing airfares to a realistic level, not cutting all their staffs pay and conditions (29 GBP London – Berlin return, 19 GBP London – Paris return) no wonder their revenues are down, no wonder their staff are paid cr@p. How about managements pay.
The only way you can justify their huge salaries is if they were to take responsibility for their actions, as pilots are.
E.g. If the CEO, BOD, DFO increase your hours up to regulation maximums (as many airlines have including my own) [are they meant to be maximum temporarily to keep the schedule going due unforeseen resignations, or maximum to be rostered every year]
Then the pilots complain of operating fatigued. Management ignore fatigue and rostering concerns. An aircraft has a serious accident; the accident investigation report cites fatigue and heavy rostering as one of many factors. The Captain faces charges of manslaughter. Shouldn’t the CEO, BOD, and DFO also face charges of manslaughter? If not how can you justify such high salaries and bonuses for no risk or accountability. (i.e. 4x, 6x Captain B744 salary or more).
What salary do you expect to make in 10 years time, 20 years time. Now if management cut that by say 30%, and cut some of your allowances after you’ve been in the company for a few years, are you still going to be as excited and upbeat as now about being an airline pilot.
You’ve read these forums and all the complaints. At least you know what you are getting into. When I started I didn’t know things would get this bad.
Skyclamp
Not a bad idea. One ton per flight, approx, 4 flights per week, 16 flights per month = 4800 GBP ($9000 USD) per month extra fuel burnt. You do not need to take extra fuel above the company flight plan, that’s what the contingency fuel is there for. Maybe we should use it.
Will it get my pay and conditions back No, but at least the management shafting myself, my profession, my career, my livelihood and my family won’t get as big a bonus for cost cutting. How long can we continue to act professional when our management treat us like a liability to the company and shaft us accordingly?
To the other flippant comments made (no id’s mentioned)
I suspect you are either;
1 Non pilots
2 Pilot management
3 Management
4 Working for one of the few decent airlines remaining (as mentioned in the original post) if so please advise which airline you work for. We would like to apply. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind your management finding out you ID; it could mean a pay cut and rapid promotion.
5 Captain on MS Flight Simulator 2004 (B747-400)
I like ZQA297/30’s encounter with a load mouthed passenger.
This job has hours of boredom in the cruise, plus hours more boredom in hotel rooms.
However I believe those commenting on how easy the job is, twiddling a few knobs in the cruise, actually know little about it. Certainly doing an approach into an airport with foul weather, high terrain, unfamiliar ATC procedures after an 8 – 16 hour flight while fatigued I would not call easy.
Or been descended below MSA near high terrain by the controller as he’s tired, or at one of the many airports throughout the world where ATC standards are well below what many would expect acceptable. Perhaps you only fly domestic in the Southwest of the USA.
Or you took CFP fuel because of company policy, or the MZFW would not allow more, or your company frowns upon offloading pax or freight to decrease the ZFW. Then 500nm from destination which is reporting marginal weather, and so is your fuel alternate. Your going to arrive with 200kg above your minimum divert fuel. You do not know how much holding to expect. Do you divert to an enroute alternate, with no agent, they don’t speak your language, there may be no one certified to dispatch your aircraft type, and as you’re rostered right up to max duty time, you may exceed your max allowable discretion if you tried to refuel and make your destination, or the paxs will have to be found hotel accommodation, or remain on the aircraft for over 12 hours until you can continue, because they do not have visas. Easy job isn’t it, just twiddle a few knobs.
Your aircraft has an uncontrollable engine fire, or cargo hold fire, or engine disintegrated, rupturing a fuel line, with associated fire. Would you consider it easy to decide whether to ditch in the middle of the ocean, or continue to the nearest airport and risk the wing burning through?
If you had a fuel leak, or uncontrollable fire, would you land at the nearest airport, 100M vis, no ILS serviceable on the into wind runway, 30 kt wind in blowing snow. Braking action medium or poor, Would you try to land on the into wind runway using a VOR approach, or extend your approach from the other direction taking a 20Kt tailwind for an ILS, or fly to another airport 100nm further on. Your wings on fire, will you make it, will you see the runway, will you skid off the end, there’s no auto land available. I don’t think that would be easy. Go and think about that for a couple of hours, ask the load mouthed passenger, but get back to us soon because you can’t sleep on it.
I doubt your are an airline pilot at all. You certainly have not had to make any real decisions. Maybe you are paid what your worth.
But I feel relieved to think there are passengers in the back like you I could call up by PA to take over as it’s so easy for you.
Or relieved to think I could just do a PA asking any passenger with MS Flight Simulator 2004 time (B747-400 preferably) to come up and twiddle a few buttons and get us on the ground safely. What is the airline captain or FO trained for, and paid for, not twiddling a few buttons in the cruise.
Now to get serious again.
Firemen are not paid their salary to sit around the station waiting for a fire; they’re paid to fight fires if and when they occur. Yet they are expected to train and be ready for that occurrence, but if there are no fires, then they are paid to sit around at the station.
Soldiers are not paid to march around in circles, and drive tanks around the countryside, but that’s what they do until they’re called upon. Is that your perception of them though?
It’s not mine.
CRM courses and Command training generally push the fact that you are not just a pilot, but you have to be a manager to carry out your duties as expected by the airline.
While some of these scenarios are drastic and I have not, and hope I never have to make those decisions, can any of us guarantee we will not be confronted with something similar throughout our career? As to the less drastic scenarios, these types of decisions do happen, and you will have to justify your decisions to management.
It’s not always easy, it may end up damned difficult, and it’s made even more difficult by constant fatigue. I don’t take it for granted,
but management do.
So I think either the day to day, flight by flight, operational and safety decisions should be able to be made by the captain and crew of the flight, their pay and conditions should reflect this responsibility, and they should not be rostered to fly fatigued.
Otherwise let the CEO’s, BOD’s and management keep there huge salary’s, and should (God forbid) an accident occur, anonymously if required send in all memos, operation orders, letters of intimidation relating to the safe operation of the airline to the victims lawyers and let them be accountable in a Court of Law.
I also strongly believe the relevant CAA’s, FAA’s, and DCA’s of the world should also be held accountable if their extensions to duty time are causing fatigue among crew, that contributes to an accident.
They seem more likely to target a light aircraft that wandered into controlled airspace without a clearance, endangering one or two conflicting aircraft, or an owner of a homebuilt doing a low pass over his friends house in the countryside, endangering only his own life (no not me, just an example), yet they allow 10,000 – 20,000 air transport aircraft to fly throughout the world each day, many with fatigued crew, endangering 5 million paxs.
As I said in the original post, either make CAP371 mandatory, or remove it completely, they know only a handful of airlines abide by it.
Finally to those who say ‘If you don’t like it vote with your feet’, I intend to, but at a time I choose, not when my company sacks me.
I’m sure I’ll keep reading PPrune occasionally just to confirm I’ve made the right decision. I’m sure there will be many pilots complaining how bad things are in ten years time, and I’ll be able to say; well you knew what you were getting into, just look at the PPrune forums in 2004.
Firstly I did not write this post expecting the CEO’s, airline owners, or management to read my concerns and to change things. But I needed to vent my anger and concerns, and hear what others thought of the way the industry was going.
Safety Guy
Yes things are that bad with my Airline and I believe many others. If I was to stand down, or refuse to go into Captains discretion my contract would be terminated. Maybe not on paper for that reason, but I would be down the road, or labeled a trouble maker with management gunning for me. Its not by choice I fly fatigued, it’s to keep my job.
In regard to retirement plans our company does not have one. Is that another eroding of conditions, of coarse I’ve read many reports of people loosing their retirement funds. Are you protected if an airline declares itself bankrupt, or goes into chapter 11, or just states they do not have sufficient funds to payout everyone’s retirement fund due to a bad investment.
Joyce Tick
When you cannot stand yourself or your crew down due to fatigue,
When you cannot refuse to extend your duty time into ‘Commanders Discretion’,
When you cannot refuse to take an aircraft with a known fault, (illegal but operationally safe)
When you cannot take extra fuel above the computer generated flight plan,
All without intimidation and threat of contract termination. You can hardly make professional decisions, more like compromises to save your job and career, to the detriment of safety to the aircraft and your passengers.
Also Dogma is right, it is more difficult to act professionally when your fatigued, low moral.
Guybrush
Yes they should reduce management’s huge salaries and lead by example. They should not increase their salaries, and / or vote themselves bonuses while preaching to their staff how revenues are down, and pay cuts are necessary, and no it would not solve the company’s financial problems.
The fact is airline management should be increasing airfares to a realistic level, not cutting all their staffs pay and conditions (29 GBP London – Berlin return, 19 GBP London – Paris return) no wonder their revenues are down, no wonder their staff are paid cr@p. How about managements pay.
The only way you can justify their huge salaries is if they were to take responsibility for their actions, as pilots are.
E.g. If the CEO, BOD, DFO increase your hours up to regulation maximums (as many airlines have including my own) [are they meant to be maximum temporarily to keep the schedule going due unforeseen resignations, or maximum to be rostered every year]
Then the pilots complain of operating fatigued. Management ignore fatigue and rostering concerns. An aircraft has a serious accident; the accident investigation report cites fatigue and heavy rostering as one of many factors. The Captain faces charges of manslaughter. Shouldn’t the CEO, BOD, and DFO also face charges of manslaughter? If not how can you justify such high salaries and bonuses for no risk or accountability. (i.e. 4x, 6x Captain B744 salary or more).
What salary do you expect to make in 10 years time, 20 years time. Now if management cut that by say 30%, and cut some of your allowances after you’ve been in the company for a few years, are you still going to be as excited and upbeat as now about being an airline pilot.
You’ve read these forums and all the complaints. At least you know what you are getting into. When I started I didn’t know things would get this bad.
Skyclamp
Not a bad idea. One ton per flight, approx, 4 flights per week, 16 flights per month = 4800 GBP ($9000 USD) per month extra fuel burnt. You do not need to take extra fuel above the company flight plan, that’s what the contingency fuel is there for. Maybe we should use it.
Will it get my pay and conditions back No, but at least the management shafting myself, my profession, my career, my livelihood and my family won’t get as big a bonus for cost cutting. How long can we continue to act professional when our management treat us like a liability to the company and shaft us accordingly?
To the other flippant comments made (no id’s mentioned)
I suspect you are either;
1 Non pilots
2 Pilot management
3 Management
4 Working for one of the few decent airlines remaining (as mentioned in the original post) if so please advise which airline you work for. We would like to apply. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind your management finding out you ID; it could mean a pay cut and rapid promotion.
5 Captain on MS Flight Simulator 2004 (B747-400)
I like ZQA297/30’s encounter with a load mouthed passenger.
This job has hours of boredom in the cruise, plus hours more boredom in hotel rooms.
However I believe those commenting on how easy the job is, twiddling a few knobs in the cruise, actually know little about it. Certainly doing an approach into an airport with foul weather, high terrain, unfamiliar ATC procedures after an 8 – 16 hour flight while fatigued I would not call easy.
Or been descended below MSA near high terrain by the controller as he’s tired, or at one of the many airports throughout the world where ATC standards are well below what many would expect acceptable. Perhaps you only fly domestic in the Southwest of the USA.
Or you took CFP fuel because of company policy, or the MZFW would not allow more, or your company frowns upon offloading pax or freight to decrease the ZFW. Then 500nm from destination which is reporting marginal weather, and so is your fuel alternate. Your going to arrive with 200kg above your minimum divert fuel. You do not know how much holding to expect. Do you divert to an enroute alternate, with no agent, they don’t speak your language, there may be no one certified to dispatch your aircraft type, and as you’re rostered right up to max duty time, you may exceed your max allowable discretion if you tried to refuel and make your destination, or the paxs will have to be found hotel accommodation, or remain on the aircraft for over 12 hours until you can continue, because they do not have visas. Easy job isn’t it, just twiddle a few knobs.
Your aircraft has an uncontrollable engine fire, or cargo hold fire, or engine disintegrated, rupturing a fuel line, with associated fire. Would you consider it easy to decide whether to ditch in the middle of the ocean, or continue to the nearest airport and risk the wing burning through?
If you had a fuel leak, or uncontrollable fire, would you land at the nearest airport, 100M vis, no ILS serviceable on the into wind runway, 30 kt wind in blowing snow. Braking action medium or poor, Would you try to land on the into wind runway using a VOR approach, or extend your approach from the other direction taking a 20Kt tailwind for an ILS, or fly to another airport 100nm further on. Your wings on fire, will you make it, will you see the runway, will you skid off the end, there’s no auto land available. I don’t think that would be easy. Go and think about that for a couple of hours, ask the load mouthed passenger, but get back to us soon because you can’t sleep on it.
I doubt your are an airline pilot at all. You certainly have not had to make any real decisions. Maybe you are paid what your worth.
But I feel relieved to think there are passengers in the back like you I could call up by PA to take over as it’s so easy for you.
Or relieved to think I could just do a PA asking any passenger with MS Flight Simulator 2004 time (B747-400 preferably) to come up and twiddle a few buttons and get us on the ground safely. What is the airline captain or FO trained for, and paid for, not twiddling a few buttons in the cruise.
Now to get serious again.
Firemen are not paid their salary to sit around the station waiting for a fire; they’re paid to fight fires if and when they occur. Yet they are expected to train and be ready for that occurrence, but if there are no fires, then they are paid to sit around at the station.
Soldiers are not paid to march around in circles, and drive tanks around the countryside, but that’s what they do until they’re called upon. Is that your perception of them though?
It’s not mine.
CRM courses and Command training generally push the fact that you are not just a pilot, but you have to be a manager to carry out your duties as expected by the airline.
While some of these scenarios are drastic and I have not, and hope I never have to make those decisions, can any of us guarantee we will not be confronted with something similar throughout our career? As to the less drastic scenarios, these types of decisions do happen, and you will have to justify your decisions to management.
It’s not always easy, it may end up damned difficult, and it’s made even more difficult by constant fatigue. I don’t take it for granted,
but management do.
So I think either the day to day, flight by flight, operational and safety decisions should be able to be made by the captain and crew of the flight, their pay and conditions should reflect this responsibility, and they should not be rostered to fly fatigued.
Otherwise let the CEO’s, BOD’s and management keep there huge salary’s, and should (God forbid) an accident occur, anonymously if required send in all memos, operation orders, letters of intimidation relating to the safe operation of the airline to the victims lawyers and let them be accountable in a Court of Law.
I also strongly believe the relevant CAA’s, FAA’s, and DCA’s of the world should also be held accountable if their extensions to duty time are causing fatigue among crew, that contributes to an accident.
They seem more likely to target a light aircraft that wandered into controlled airspace without a clearance, endangering one or two conflicting aircraft, or an owner of a homebuilt doing a low pass over his friends house in the countryside, endangering only his own life (no not me, just an example), yet they allow 10,000 – 20,000 air transport aircraft to fly throughout the world each day, many with fatigued crew, endangering 5 million paxs.
As I said in the original post, either make CAP371 mandatory, or remove it completely, they know only a handful of airlines abide by it.
Finally to those who say ‘If you don’t like it vote with your feet’, I intend to, but at a time I choose, not when my company sacks me.
I’m sure I’ll keep reading PPrune occasionally just to confirm I’ve made the right decision. I’m sure there will be many pilots complaining how bad things are in ten years time, and I’ll be able to say; well you knew what you were getting into, just look at the PPrune forums in 2004.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
TDF380, I wonder how much of this:-
"When you cannot stand yourself or your crew down due to fatigue,
When you cannot refuse to extend your duty time into ‘Commanders Discretion’,
When you cannot refuse to take an aircraft with a known fault, (illegal but operationally safe)
When you cannot take extra fuel above the computer generated flight plan,
All without intimidation and threat of contract termination.",
is a REAL threat, or whether you perceive that there will be repercussions, by exercising your authority as a Commander.
By NOT exercising your legal authority to stand down due to fatigue, refuse to operate an aircraft that MUST be grounded, fail to take extra fuel - even if it means offloading pax and/or freight, etc, etc, YOU are at fault.
You are KNOWINGLY placing the aircraft, and its occupants in danger, and YOU will be the one who will wear the full consequences of any investigation!
You MUST either insist on your decision being followed, or, resign as a Captain - for the Safety of your crew, your pax, and yourself.
You are assuming that you will continue through to that time without mishap - a mishap that will probably terminate your career altogether.
A little like the non-IFR rated pilot who flies into cloud, and is willing to push on "just that little bit further", hoping for a break....but instead flies into a mountain.
If the company you work for are as bad as you believe them to be, then rest assured, they will not stand by YOU in any inquiry, and naturally they are going to deny your allegations - allegations you are going to be forced to substantiate in court.
It's time, TDF380!
Time for YOU to either take a stand, and be the responsible Captain you are licenced by the authorities, and employed by the company to be, or to RESIGN!
All the best with your decision.
Your future, and that of the aviation industry rides on it!
"When you cannot stand yourself or your crew down due to fatigue,
When you cannot refuse to extend your duty time into ‘Commanders Discretion’,
When you cannot refuse to take an aircraft with a known fault, (illegal but operationally safe)
When you cannot take extra fuel above the computer generated flight plan,
All without intimidation and threat of contract termination.",
is a REAL threat, or whether you perceive that there will be repercussions, by exercising your authority as a Commander.
By NOT exercising your legal authority to stand down due to fatigue, refuse to operate an aircraft that MUST be grounded, fail to take extra fuel - even if it means offloading pax and/or freight, etc, etc, YOU are at fault.
You are KNOWINGLY placing the aircraft, and its occupants in danger, and YOU will be the one who will wear the full consequences of any investigation!
You MUST either insist on your decision being followed, or, resign as a Captain - for the Safety of your crew, your pax, and yourself.
Finally to those who say ‘If you don’t like it vote with your feet’, I intend to, but at a time I choose, not when my company sacks me.
A little like the non-IFR rated pilot who flies into cloud, and is willing to push on "just that little bit further", hoping for a break....but instead flies into a mountain.
If the company you work for are as bad as you believe them to be, then rest assured, they will not stand by YOU in any inquiry, and naturally they are going to deny your allegations - allegations you are going to be forced to substantiate in court.
It's time, TDF380!
Time for YOU to either take a stand, and be the responsible Captain you are licenced by the authorities, and employed by the company to be, or to RESIGN!
All the best with your decision.
Your future, and that of the aviation industry rides on it!
Thread Starter
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Kaptin M,
Perhaps you work for one of the better airlines around. If everyone who worked for an airline such as mine was to resign due safety concerns, there would be thousands more pilots out of work. (a few hundred from my airline)
How would I support my family. Easy for you to say just resign, perhaps you could resign from your airline so I could take your spot, then you would be one of the hundreds without work. This culture has come from the managers and regulators of the industry.
Dont shoot the messenger.
As I said, you may not be fired immediately for refusing any one the points I mentioned, but someone has in my airline recently for the various reasons I mentioned.
There are many airlines throughout the world who do not operate to your airlines standards.
Perhaps you work for one of the better airlines around. If everyone who worked for an airline such as mine was to resign due safety concerns, there would be thousands more pilots out of work. (a few hundred from my airline)
How would I support my family. Easy for you to say just resign, perhaps you could resign from your airline so I could take your spot, then you would be one of the hundreds without work. This culture has come from the managers and regulators of the industry.
Dont shoot the messenger.
As I said, you may not be fired immediately for refusing any one the points I mentioned, but someone has in my airline recently for the various reasons I mentioned.
There are many airlines throughout the world who do not operate to your airlines standards.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Calling for managers and CAA officers to take responsibility in this matter is on a real test: Look at Switzerland and the two Crossair accident investigations. The CEO (M. Suter) COO (A.Dosé) and the head of the Swiss FOCA (A. Auer) are officially indicted (of negligent killing, I believe). The attorney general is leading the investigation. Allthough I bet they will walk away unaffected, it is one of the first trials taking in not only pilots. The preliminary enquiry showed quite clearly, that by exercising his legal authority, this particular captain would have not flow, beeing fatigued, and would certainly not have busted the minimum. The accident would have most probably been avoided, however this captain would have been in a lot of trouble. Like so many other airlines, Crossair was notorious in hidden threats to pilots if they wouldn’t break every sensible rule to guarantee operations. Many testimonies now pop up to confirm this, as immunity is certain because all three suspects are no more in charge. To stand up and defend safety and legal barriers, it requires character and airmanship. If such was demonstrated, these airlines wouldn’t have hired the respective pilot in the first place (THAT’S the catch Kaptin M!). The problem starts with recruitement and training, very much a management and CAA thing. However, talent and character mean having alternatives to make reasonable money and training means money again and there you touch the nerve of business: It tends to hire the less gifted, but cheap and to train him only to serve the company. Controlling THAT is what CAA’s have been installed for and they fail miserably, mostly deliberately. Asking captains nowadays to stand down, refuse and exerce their legal authoritiy is about as realistic in many companies as to tell a Chinese or Iraqi to stand up and speak out loud for human rights and democracy. You can probably only accept or leave, but hardly change a well installed and almost corrupt system.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It is quite ironic, yet fitting, I guess, that you, TDF380 as the initiator of this thread, "The DEMISEof the professional Pilot", are now - some 7 pages later - offering perhaps the REAL reason for that demise.
The fact is, you believe that your management are FORCING you to break Safety standards, and thus destroy the profession of pilot.
Imo, though, the buck stops with YOU.
It is YOU, TDF380 who is compromising your own standards, and creating the Safety hazard.
Stating that, "If everyone who worked for an airline such as mine was to resign due safety concerns, there would be thousands more pilots out of work." is YOUR way of justifying YOUR compromise of your own personal standard. if you have one!
Personally, I don't believe that there are "(a) few hundred from my airline" who are all too afraid to use their command authority.
This is your justification for not having the balls to take a stand......"So and so does it, so I had better too."
If you want to remain in professional aviation, it's time you grew a backbone - you might just be surprised to find that your company takes heed of the issues you raise, and of the respect and support you will get from your peers.
Make sure that your case is fireproof so that the authorities have enough ammunition to back you up, if it comes to a confrontation.
Attitudes such as that expressed above are NOT those of a true PROFESSIONAL pilot, and only help to further LOWER standards, instead of maintain or raise them.
The fact is, you believe that your management are FORCING you to break Safety standards, and thus destroy the profession of pilot.
Imo, though, the buck stops with YOU.
It is YOU, TDF380 who is compromising your own standards, and creating the Safety hazard.
Stating that, "If everyone who worked for an airline such as mine was to resign due safety concerns, there would be thousands more pilots out of work." is YOUR way of justifying YOUR compromise of your own personal standard. if you have one!
Personally, I don't believe that there are "(a) few hundred from my airline" who are all too afraid to use their command authority.
This is your justification for not having the balls to take a stand......"So and so does it, so I had better too."
If you want to remain in professional aviation, it's time you grew a backbone - you might just be surprised to find that your company takes heed of the issues you raise, and of the respect and support you will get from your peers.
Make sure that your case is fireproof so that the authorities have enough ammunition to back you up, if it comes to a confrontation.
Asking captains nowadays to stand down, refuse and exerce their legal authoritiy is about as realistic in many companies as to tell a Chinese or Iraqi to stand up and speak out loud for human rights and democracy.
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Kaptin M,
Have You ever worked for one of the outfits TDF380 is talking about? If yes then fine, but if not, with all due respect: You do not know what you are talking about! In theory what you are saying is of course correct but in the real world...
We´ve been to CRM courses for the last 15 years and been told about all different kinds of threats like fatigue, changing sleep cycles, schedule pressure, little fuel ... You´ve all seen the list a hundred times! When it comes to the real day´s work all is forgotten by the managment. OK we´ve given them the CRM course, CAA is happy and now it´s back to running the airline!
Have You ever worked for one of the outfits TDF380 is talking about? If yes then fine, but if not, with all due respect: You do not know what you are talking about! In theory what you are saying is of course correct but in the real world...
We´ve been to CRM courses for the last 15 years and been told about all different kinds of threats like fatigue, changing sleep cycles, schedule pressure, little fuel ... You´ve all seen the list a hundred times! When it comes to the real day´s work all is forgotten by the managment. OK we´ve given them the CRM course, CAA is happy and now it´s back to running the airline!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Ever been swimming in a public pool, Hotel Charlie?
Did you put your faith in the others swimming there, to NOT p!ss in the pool?
Did you, yourself, feel that same obligation to the other users?
Did you put your faith in the others swimming there, to NOT p!ss in the pool?
Did you, yourself, feel that same obligation to the other users?
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Why is it that on CRM courses we're bombarded with information about fatigue ?
We bl**dywell know all about fatigue...we suffer from it regularly....
It's not us who should be sitting there listening yet again to the latest results of another fascinating study on fatigue it's the management.....
Any chance of the CAA insisting that the management suffer a one month totally disrupted sleep pattern and then sit an exam on fatigue ?
We bl**dywell know all about fatigue...we suffer from it regularly....
It's not us who should be sitting there listening yet again to the latest results of another fascinating study on fatigue it's the management.....
Any chance of the CAA insisting that the management suffer a one month totally disrupted sleep pattern and then sit an exam on fatigue ?