The Demise of the Professional Pilot
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Ah but, Ah but, Ah but, Ah but, these pilots who are now managers do not have a clue because they got pregnant by sitting on a toilet seat after feeling the f/o's breasts, but that doesn't matter as the CSD has been caught smoking in the toilet and the flight attendant spewed before the flight. Anyway I don't care cos I told my instructor that you get AIDS if you smell so he's got it and my friend elsie got it by checking her flaps. In any case mum says be wary of all professional people cos they will all get you pregnant.
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Just to clarify the wage situation in the UK, I moved into the right seat of a turboprop in 1998 from GA air taxi, and was paid the princely sum of £19,500 before tax, 1 1/2 years later got an early command at £34,000.
Moved companies to a low cost as an FO again and started on £38,000 ( + £4000 sector pay)
Not bad some could say, BUT! and a very big but! my plumber and my local Corgi register Gas technician actually earns more me!!!
Luckily again an early command 6 months ago, has bumped my salary up to a more respectable level, but in 4 Years at this company has shagged me out completely, working from 6am on my first day on til 11.30pm on my sixth or sometimes seventh day, that I've decided to move companies so I actually have a chance of reaching my retirement age in 32 years with a valid medical certificate!
When, or if I ever have children, I will certainly never promote a career in Aviation to them! and that is a sorry state of affairs!
Maybe I should follow my brother into the computer graphics world and earn his salary of over £ 100,000 per annum, to sit in front of the computer 9 til 5, 5 days a week, weekends off!
Pity they say that the flying bug is like the clap,once you have you can't get rid of it! otherwise there would be a major pilot shortage.
Moved companies to a low cost as an FO again and started on £38,000 ( + £4000 sector pay)
Not bad some could say, BUT! and a very big but! my plumber and my local Corgi register Gas technician actually earns more me!!!
Luckily again an early command 6 months ago, has bumped my salary up to a more respectable level, but in 4 Years at this company has shagged me out completely, working from 6am on my first day on til 11.30pm on my sixth or sometimes seventh day, that I've decided to move companies so I actually have a chance of reaching my retirement age in 32 years with a valid medical certificate!
When, or if I ever have children, I will certainly never promote a career in Aviation to them! and that is a sorry state of affairs!
Maybe I should follow my brother into the computer graphics world and earn his salary of over £ 100,000 per annum, to sit in front of the computer 9 til 5, 5 days a week, weekends off!
Pity they say that the flying bug is like the clap,once you have you can't get rid of it! otherwise there would be a major pilot shortage.
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This thing about plumbers etc confuses me 
What would you rather be doing ?
Driving about in traffic jams to get dirty, cold and p***** off with the customers ever demanding requests.....
or.............
Sitting on a nice warm flight deck and looking at blue skies ?
Having started life as a plumbers mate I can tell you there is no comparison. And if you want to earn anything like £40K + a year as a plumber you will be self employed and working all the hours you can muster and most weekends
PAYE plumbers earn around £21K..............
For those that haven't tried it, self employment can be a right pain in the **** (holiday pay ?? sick pay ???? what's that ????)
Next time you meet a plumber, either professionally or at the bar, ask him what he would prefer to be doing?
Most would swap places with you immediately.........
You can of course become a plumber if you want, I have yet to meet a pilot who has made the change. Most couldn't afford to take the drop in earnings. Then there is the subject of pensions, as a S/E plumber..............the lack of
Off for a Chinese now
DP
What would you rather be doing ?
Driving about in traffic jams to get dirty, cold and p***** off with the customers ever demanding requests.....
or.............
Sitting on a nice warm flight deck and looking at blue skies ?
Having started life as a plumbers mate I can tell you there is no comparison. And if you want to earn anything like £40K + a year as a plumber you will be self employed and working all the hours you can muster and most weekends
PAYE plumbers earn around £21K..............
For those that haven't tried it, self employment can be a right pain in the **** (holiday pay ?? sick pay ???? what's that ????)
Next time you meet a plumber, either professionally or at the bar, ask him what he would prefer to be doing?
Most would swap places with you immediately.........
You can of course become a plumber if you want, I have yet to meet a pilot who has made the change. Most couldn't afford to take the drop in earnings. Then there is the subject of pensions, as a S/E plumber..............the lack of
Off for a Chinese now
DP
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This topic is always an interesting one
I love flying, and to get to a point in ones profession where we are even on this board, I believe most are passionate about what they do for a living. This isn't to say that we are not disgruntled with the current state of the industry.
I know if I had to do something else for a living, and it certainly has been entertained, I would have to be just as passionate about that profession as I have been with FLYING.
I feel for the group as a whole, because we are definately getting the shaft, but what industry isn't today.
I have been unemployed almost as much as I have been employed, and in the long run probably would have made more doing almost anything else, just because the periods of unemployment would not have likely been as frequent.
Great experience, lousy profession.
I know if I had to do something else for a living, and it certainly has been entertained, I would have to be just as passionate about that profession as I have been with FLYING.
I feel for the group as a whole, because we are definately getting the shaft, but what industry isn't today.
I have been unemployed almost as much as I have been employed, and in the long run probably would have made more doing almost anything else, just because the periods of unemployment would not have likely been as frequent.
Great experience, lousy profession.
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I do believe the situation would improve if potential new pilots had a better idea of the salaries and working conditions before they joined the industry. Most seem to think they will earn £100,000+ for 3/4 days work a week. If they understood the reality with some companies paying £16,000, after you pay for your type rating, this might see a decrease of pilots coming into the industry which could force a rethink by employers.
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The pay and conditions in aviation as a whole is reprehensible. I am not aircrew, could never be as I'm as blind as a bat, but have been involved in aviation since leaving school in the aircraft ops/airport side of the industry. To say that I am astonished at the appallingly low levels of pay would be an understatement and what really amazes me is the seemingly limitless numbers of willing candidates who are prepared to accept these conditions.
As long as there are people prepared to accept low levels of pay and questionable working conditions the industry will continue to operate in this manner.
As long as there are people prepared to accept low levels of pay and questionable working conditions the industry will continue to operate in this manner.
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guybrush
More like £18k to £22k for a new f/o.
There are always the, "My mate knows this bloke....... blah blah", stories, but they are the excepion rather than the rule.
Most new f/os have to do their time on the Turboprops unless they are ex-mil with a couple of thousand hours behind them.
More like £18k to £22k for a new f/o.
There are always the, "My mate knows this bloke....... blah blah", stories, but they are the excepion rather than the rule.
Most new f/os have to do their time on the Turboprops unless they are ex-mil with a couple of thousand hours behind them.
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The AVERAGE wage in UK is 21,200 pounds a year, the MINIMUM wage is soon to be 5 pounds an hour. Unfortunately all this blather about safety only hastens the end of the pilot as Ernest K Gann knew him....the more we bleat about how dangerous we are when we are tired/pissed off etc. only makes the manufacturers more eager to remove the component that, as they see it, causes more accidents than any other piece of equipment on the airframe....If you don't believe me, just take a look at how much control you REALLY have on the 380. Management can at least point to statistics about incidents/accidents, and prove their case to some extent....as opposed to whining and the refusal to 'get on ones bike'. Unless we are prepared to vote with our feet, or modify the seniority based systems we all work under, so an experienced pilot does not have to start as an 2nd O, (will vote for this?,) what we have got now will look like paradise in 10 years time..........
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After 27 years pursuing a dream, changing countries back and forth ( europe-america, lucky lucky me ) building hours with much sacrifice ( saw my son for approx. 6 weeks in a 2 year period )here I am at fifty wanting to make a change in my career and I find myself quite literally stuck in aviation. Yes, it is an addiction of nearly 11800 hours, years and years of being away from home,sometimes with companies that hardly care about aircraft maintenance, the only real pleasure found in the challenging aspects of flight...see winter ops, short runways in Greece in all the variety of weather scenarios...freight dogging throughout USA, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean...to end up in Europe
flying left seat 737´s for a charter company that can barely hold its own...so, I can only agree with the opening letter of this thread that aviation aint what it used to be and most important IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME.
I often think about taking up long haul lorry driving, but I know Id last about 3 weeks before my flying monkey takes to my back...
flying left seat 737´s for a charter company that can barely hold its own...so, I can only agree with the opening letter of this thread that aviation aint what it used to be and most important IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME.
I often think about taking up long haul lorry driving, but I know Id last about 3 weeks before my flying monkey takes to my back...
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My take on this is that you only get one life. You have to decide what is important to you.
I slogged my guts out for various companies, and had my share of companies going broke under me, companies that didn't pay me, others that "retrenched" and put me back on some little turboprop. Maybe I was unlucky; my last company was really good, but still suffered from the problems noted in the first post. I even found myself attending a disciplinary hearing because some 20-year-old crewing person blamed me to cover his own arse. Nothing came of it, but the point is that in days gone by, the integrity of a senior captain would not be questioned so easily.
Yes, the flying was great. However, the flying was only a small part of the job, and all the other crap I had to endure- from crappy crewing practices to tech aircraft to handlers that didn't speak english; from drunk pax and stroppy security staff and staff carparks cleverly engineered to be as far away as possible from the terminal; was so depressing that in the end the equation simply didn't make any sense.
I now work from home and fly for fun. I enjoy being with my family, who I didn't see much of in any of my flying jobs. I get to watch my sons grow up, I am master of my own company, and I live next to a beach.
Yes, the flying was fun. But having a life is whole lot more fun.
You only get one life.
I slogged my guts out for various companies, and had my share of companies going broke under me, companies that didn't pay me, others that "retrenched" and put me back on some little turboprop. Maybe I was unlucky; my last company was really good, but still suffered from the problems noted in the first post. I even found myself attending a disciplinary hearing because some 20-year-old crewing person blamed me to cover his own arse. Nothing came of it, but the point is that in days gone by, the integrity of a senior captain would not be questioned so easily.
Yes, the flying was great. However, the flying was only a small part of the job, and all the other crap I had to endure- from crappy crewing practices to tech aircraft to handlers that didn't speak english; from drunk pax and stroppy security staff and staff carparks cleverly engineered to be as far away as possible from the terminal; was so depressing that in the end the equation simply didn't make any sense.
I now work from home and fly for fun. I enjoy being with my family, who I didn't see much of in any of my flying jobs. I get to watch my sons grow up, I am master of my own company, and I live next to a beach.
Yes, the flying was fun. But having a life is whole lot more fun.
You only get one life.
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How totally DEPRESSING is all this.
However guys, you do forget one thing.
We are in control of THEIR toys.
We can and should start upping the fuel we carry and bloody well up the burn too.
Fly with the gear down, fly low and fast, fly where it hurts them.
I already do, have been for a while and will carry on until I, the Captain is once again recognised for what I do.
Please don't the 'soft ones' amongst you come on here now to tell me about me burning the company's profits with my potential wage increase in the process.
I simply don't give a gallon!
Now here's that wonderful essay from America, written by a Connie captain a few years ago.
Let's adopt his attitude:
I AM AN ARMY OF ONE
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money....but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.
When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One...And I'm not alone!
However guys, you do forget one thing.
We are in control of THEIR toys.
We can and should start upping the fuel we carry and bloody well up the burn too.
Fly with the gear down, fly low and fast, fly where it hurts them.
I already do, have been for a while and will carry on until I, the Captain is once again recognised for what I do.
Please don't the 'soft ones' amongst you come on here now to tell me about me burning the company's profits with my potential wage increase in the process.
I simply don't give a gallon!
Now here's that wonderful essay from America, written by a Connie captain a few years ago.
Let's adopt his attitude:
I AM AN ARMY OF ONE
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money....but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.
When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One...And I'm not alone!
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Breaking away is (fortunately for the 'management'/beancounters) not so easy....if like MOR you can adopt a lifestyle that offers all you need then you are one of the fortunate few....for most it means turning up for work where you'll be surrounded by unprofessional clockwatchers talking about televison and football...they'll be incompetent but good at hiding it and pretty soon you'll ache to get back to the professional atmosphere of the cockpit....I know that I did....but I also chucked airline work and now love flying all over again.....
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MungoP - "they'll be incompetent but good at hiding it and pretty soon you'll ache to get back to the professional atmosphere of the cockpit"
With that kind of nonsensical remark I bet you rose to very high office in civvy life and are just the best captain there ever was.
With that kind of nonsensical remark I bet you rose to very high office in civvy life and are just the best captain there ever was.
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Thrush, I got my information from air school or airline websites.
And I agree with many of you that the pilots should do something (exactly what are the unions for??). You should at the very least ask for better and more comfortable life styles (more time to over come jet lag if needed, more days off if there are little days off etc). And could you do that soon and on an international scale? You see I MIGHT be a pilot in the future with virtually any airline willing to employ me. So could you all just revolt now so I could find better working conditions when I am employed?
I am studying engineering at the moment and I am told that starting salaries are in the region of about 20 to 22 thousand Pounds a year in the UK. I don't see much of a difference compared to Pilots' salaries. So why are you all complaining when you are earning just like other professionals? Were pilot salaries higher a decade or two ago? If so how high were they?
Cheers
guybrush
And I agree with many of you that the pilots should do something (exactly what are the unions for??). You should at the very least ask for better and more comfortable life styles (more time to over come jet lag if needed, more days off if there are little days off etc). And could you do that soon and on an international scale? You see I MIGHT be a pilot in the future with virtually any airline willing to employ me. So could you all just revolt now so I could find better working conditions when I am employed?
I am studying engineering at the moment and I am told that starting salaries are in the region of about 20 to 22 thousand Pounds a year in the UK. I don't see much of a difference compared to Pilots' salaries. So why are you all complaining when you are earning just like other professionals? Were pilot salaries higher a decade or two ago? If so how high were they?
Cheers
guybrush
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I use to be in the aviation business, got disillussioned and left to become a train driver. I now drive freight trains 36.6K for a 35 hour week and no worries. Any hours over the contractual rate are paid as a bonus at Christmas averaging 15K after tax.
The futures bright, the futures Green.
Freightliner men are not from Mars.
The futures bright, the futures Green.
Freightliner men are not from Mars.
Paxing All Over The World
We can and should start upping the fuel we carry and bloody well up the burn too. [edit more blather] I already do, have been for a while and will carry on until I, the Captain is once again recognised for what I do.
If I was a boss and met this kind of narrow minded attitude, then it would irritate me significantly. Irrespective of what industry I was in. I did not like what was happening in my old line of work and have been moving steradily away from it for some years. The money is less but I knew that it would be, you could so the same. Start your own airline. Sheesh.
With the very deepest of respect, I have just finished re reading Ernest K. Gann's "fate is the Hunter", something I haven't read for thirty years. I would respectfully like to point out that times have changed since Mr. Gann flew. The technology has changed for the better since he wrote it, and with it I suspect the risk levels associated with professional flying although perhaps not for for the stuff that low time PPL clods like me fly.
There are two principles I wish to draw to your attention. the first is the risk/return equation which states that the higher the risk, the higher had better be the return if you wish to attract investment dollars. The second is the law of supply and demand that states that as prices offered rise, so does the available supply of goods or services.
I respectfully suggest that as flying is perceived to be less risky these days due to better technology, and the supply of eager young pilots who will work for peanuts, appears infinite, the bean counters will continue to degrade your perceived worth.
I suspect Mr. Gann was right when he suggested pilots earn their entire pay in two minutes per year, but I think many bean counters would think that your job is no more difficult or risky than their own.
Your own professionalism has lead them to this belief. I don't think you can legally or ethically demonstrate the dangers of your environment and the falseness of the beancounters position without scaring your passengers to death.
There are two principles I wish to draw to your attention. the first is the risk/return equation which states that the higher the risk, the higher had better be the return if you wish to attract investment dollars. The second is the law of supply and demand that states that as prices offered rise, so does the available supply of goods or services.
I respectfully suggest that as flying is perceived to be less risky these days due to better technology, and the supply of eager young pilots who will work for peanuts, appears infinite, the bean counters will continue to degrade your perceived worth.
I suspect Mr. Gann was right when he suggested pilots earn their entire pay in two minutes per year, but I think many bean counters would think that your job is no more difficult or risky than their own.
Your own professionalism has lead them to this belief. I don't think you can legally or ethically demonstrate the dangers of your environment and the falseness of the beancounters position without scaring your passengers to death.