The Demise of the Professional Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Floating around the planet
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Agree with Charles DArwin and skyclamp
but.
I also think that the good old times (and conditions) were got because lots of people were thinking together and acting together.The old pilots spent lots of off days in the union.The old guys were fired.The old guys did a strike to get their fellow`s job back.The old good guys didn`t allow a new co-pilot do his leg while he didn`t join the union.The old guys weren`t the first to point out one`s failures.Or make the poor guy who had an incident previously guilty(even before the managment)
IT`S WORTHLESS to waste fuel if you don`t join to the Union. We don`t have any force alone.
I hear people saying"union does nothing).
Unions are YOU!!!!! THEY ARE YOUR VOICE!!!If you go to the union and tell them that you want even less money,they have to struggle for it.But you have to go there.If you want more money and conditions you have to go there.
When you see one saying the UNION does nothing ask him/her if he/she was on the last reunion...
GO THERE!!!!! even if you don`t open your mouth!!! You will form an opinion of how things are going by yourself.
It will be nice for you and your coleagues to see everybody there.
I see guys saying the youngest co-pilots are guilty.They have just a small part in the cake.Everybody started the career accepting everything.But people are never happy with what they have.And this young pilots who just joined the company soon will understand the system and will be more demanding.As long as they learn to fly with you ,they need learn to have a positive attitude .And THIS is a Captain`s duty.A 300 hours guy can not be a Captain.
Did you know everyone can take a UNION to court if they take oposite actions to those accorded with pilots???
Also remenber yourselves that a good job environment helps to get people together.
Let`s stop beeing nice guys in front and selfish in the back .
Let`s prove for ourselves and managment we are the real leaders.
Just to say one thing.I have already had a dicciplinary action for beeing on the head of a union .And I am still alive.I have a better job now,more money and a better environment.
STOP beeing afraid like chickens.By the way ,I think pilots nowadays are like chicken.A lot of noise together but if somebody taller than us comes into the place we run away in all directions.
Never expect 100% people stuggling for your rights.There are always chickens (young and female).But the man have to be the majority and they have to be hard and persistent.
Let`s think a little bit on our way of beeing in life/ work and remenber that a group needs of us too.
Bye. Best flights
but.
I also think that the good old times (and conditions) were got because lots of people were thinking together and acting together.The old pilots spent lots of off days in the union.The old guys were fired.The old guys did a strike to get their fellow`s job back.The old good guys didn`t allow a new co-pilot do his leg while he didn`t join the union.The old guys weren`t the first to point out one`s failures.Or make the poor guy who had an incident previously guilty(even before the managment)
IT`S WORTHLESS to waste fuel if you don`t join to the Union. We don`t have any force alone.
I hear people saying"union does nothing).
Unions are YOU!!!!! THEY ARE YOUR VOICE!!!If you go to the union and tell them that you want even less money,they have to struggle for it.But you have to go there.If you want more money and conditions you have to go there.
When you see one saying the UNION does nothing ask him/her if he/she was on the last reunion...
GO THERE!!!!! even if you don`t open your mouth!!! You will form an opinion of how things are going by yourself.
It will be nice for you and your coleagues to see everybody there.
I see guys saying the youngest co-pilots are guilty.They have just a small part in the cake.Everybody started the career accepting everything.But people are never happy with what they have.And this young pilots who just joined the company soon will understand the system and will be more demanding.As long as they learn to fly with you ,they need learn to have a positive attitude .And THIS is a Captain`s duty.A 300 hours guy can not be a Captain.
Did you know everyone can take a UNION to court if they take oposite actions to those accorded with pilots???
Also remenber yourselves that a good job environment helps to get people together.
Let`s stop beeing nice guys in front and selfish in the back .
Let`s prove for ourselves and managment we are the real leaders.
Just to say one thing.I have already had a dicciplinary action for beeing on the head of a union .And I am still alive.I have a better job now,more money and a better environment.
STOP beeing afraid like chickens.By the way ,I think pilots nowadays are like chicken.A lot of noise together but if somebody taller than us comes into the place we run away in all directions.
Never expect 100% people stuggling for your rights.There are always chickens (young and female).But the man have to be the majority and they have to be hard and persistent.
Let`s think a little bit on our way of beeing in life/ work and remenber that a group needs of us too.
Bye. Best flights
Last edited by A-3TWENTY; 1st Feb 2005 at 08:22.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: edge of reality
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BUS DRIVERS ?
When did a bus driver have to accept a computer programmed fuel plan that he knew from experience might be a bit marginal at that time of year, when arriving at a destination many thousands of miles away .?...Or know that if he decided to ignore the plan and carry extra fuel he could end up having tea and biscuits with the chief pilot ? ..When did a bus driver have to climb/cruise/hold/descend through ice .....?
On really sh*tty nights at somewhere like Frankfurt I would look back and see businessmen climbing aboard after a day of meetings and hassle and know that pretty much all of them had a wife at home preparing the evening meal and children hoping to see daddy before going to bed....The wife didn't want a visit from the local police late that night telling her that he would not be home again.....and the children wake the next morning to wonder why their mother was in tears....
How many bus drivers have those thoughts before taxiing out ?
When did a bus driver have to accept a computer programmed fuel plan that he knew from experience might be a bit marginal at that time of year, when arriving at a destination many thousands of miles away .?...Or know that if he decided to ignore the plan and carry extra fuel he could end up having tea and biscuits with the chief pilot ? ..When did a bus driver have to climb/cruise/hold/descend through ice .....?
On really sh*tty nights at somewhere like Frankfurt I would look back and see businessmen climbing aboard after a day of meetings and hassle and know that pretty much all of them had a wife at home preparing the evening meal and children hoping to see daddy before going to bed....The wife didn't want a visit from the local police late that night telling her that he would not be home again.....and the children wake the next morning to wonder why their mother was in tears....
How many bus drivers have those thoughts before taxiing out ?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
To be honest, I'm sick and 
tired of debating this same cr@p over and over and over again.
Personally I think A-3Twenty's anology of comparing pilots to chickens is supremely PERFECT.
I think pilots nowadays are like chicken.A lot of noise together but if somebody taller than us comes into the place we run away in all directions.
I haven't seen it before, and if it is YOUR original thought, A-3TWENTY, you are, imo, an astutely brilliant legend
I'm sick & tired of being plucked, and stuffed (with b.s.) like a chicken...of being told that "The Company hasn't got any money, and so a pay decrease is necessary for the staff, if the Company is to survive."....only to see management reward themselves with extra bonuses, increased salaries, no alteration to their work conditions, but do NOTHING to increase actual productivity or increased revenue flow from clients!
Just like THEM, I'm in this for myself, now.
I can turn 1 hour sectors into 50 minutes...or 1 hour 30minutes.
The seat belt sign can stay on for all except about 10 minutes - for forecast/previous reports - of every flight!
I will step down when I feel fatigued, due to sh!t rostering, that has me doing consecutive early mornings, long days, and near minmum rest layovers. I'm a HUMAN BEING, not a robot!
I REALLY do NOT give a**** about the uneducated opinions of non Flight Crew, such as doublewasp - they know sfa about the day-to-day pressure put on crew, the effects of flying in O2 depleted work situations, the experience of having to stay at the work station for hours on end (without running off to the coffee machine/toilet/copier/work associate's desk - or flicking through the Internet pages at the Company's expense!)
The doublewasps are the M-F 9-5 freaks that live in a coffin from the day they finish their study - their greatest excitement, and fear, in life is going on vacation.
Exciting because it's "different" to the M-F 9-5.
Frightening, because they know they won't be missed, and are easily replaced!
So get over it guys - the fight is individually in our own hands now.
Like a fighting cock, be prepared to take your OWN stand as a pilot - for pilots!
tired of debating this same cr@p over and over and over again.Personally I think A-3Twenty's anology of comparing pilots to chickens is supremely PERFECT.
I think pilots nowadays are like chicken.A lot of noise together but if somebody taller than us comes into the place we run away in all directions.
I haven't seen it before, and if it is YOUR original thought, A-3TWENTY, you are, imo, an astutely brilliant legend
I'm sick & tired of being plucked, and stuffed (with b.s.) like a chicken...of being told that "The Company hasn't got any money, and so a pay decrease is necessary for the staff, if the Company is to survive."....only to see management reward themselves with extra bonuses, increased salaries, no alteration to their work conditions, but do NOTHING to increase actual productivity or increased revenue flow from clients!
Just like THEM, I'm in this for myself, now.
I can turn 1 hour sectors into 50 minutes...or 1 hour 30minutes.
The seat belt sign can stay on for all except about 10 minutes - for forecast/previous reports - of every flight!
I will step down when I feel fatigued, due to sh!t rostering, that has me doing consecutive early mornings, long days, and near minmum rest layovers. I'm a HUMAN BEING, not a robot!
I REALLY do NOT give a**** about the uneducated opinions of non Flight Crew, such as doublewasp - they know sfa about the day-to-day pressure put on crew, the effects of flying in O2 depleted work situations, the experience of having to stay at the work station for hours on end (without running off to the coffee machine/toilet/copier/work associate's desk - or flicking through the Internet pages at the Company's expense!)
The doublewasps are the M-F 9-5 freaks that live in a coffin from the day they finish their study - their greatest excitement, and fear, in life is going on vacation.
Exciting because it's "different" to the M-F 9-5.
Frightening, because they know they won't be missed, and are easily replaced!
So get over it guys - the fight is individually in our own hands now.
Like a fighting cock, be prepared to take your OWN stand as a pilot - for pilots!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Europe
Age: 63
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WE ARE BUSDRIVERS
It all starts within yourself. You don´t respect your profession, and of course nobody will respect you. People earn respect from their words and actions. Respect is earned. It is not something that comes with a position.
Think about that.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread must not degenerate into personal attacks.
However, doubletwat, get a job, a life, get out more, see the world.
Your unfortunate remark "Nobody forced us to become commercial pilots" is nothing more than saying nobody forced us to have families, to have cars, to have... anything we might like.
According to your skewed "philosophy" we should just bend over and allow to be rocketed by corrupt, unskilled management, or walk out, forgetting we have ever lived.
You must'ave been fun to fly with (if you've really been there - which I very much doubt.)
However, doubletwat, get a job, a life, get out more, see the world.
Your unfortunate remark "Nobody forced us to become commercial pilots" is nothing more than saying nobody forced us to have families, to have cars, to have... anything we might like.
According to your skewed "philosophy" we should just bend over and allow to be rocketed by corrupt, unskilled management, or walk out, forgetting we have ever lived.
You must'ave been fun to fly with (if you've really been there - which I very much doubt.)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: German Corner
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I once heard a story from the outback refueller about hacked off pilots sweeping a tiny pile of stones under the props. Oh dear, a new chip or six to file out.
Professional.. um no, effective .. yes
Professional.. um no, effective .. yes
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
doublewasp
Re: We ARE bus drivers.
The job IS easy.
They DO pay us what we're worth.
In the event that I changed jobs for the day with the driver of the Clapham Omnibus, completed the vehicle check out and route familiarization in the morning and entered service in the afternoon, at what stage would the real Omnibus driver be at, by this time, in his attempt to enter service as commander of a heavy jet public transport aircraft?
Re: We ARE bus drivers.
The job IS easy.
They DO pay us what we're worth.
In the event that I changed jobs for the day with the driver of the Clapham Omnibus, completed the vehicle check out and route familiarization in the morning and entered service in the afternoon, at what stage would the real Omnibus driver be at, by this time, in his attempt to enter service as commander of a heavy jet public transport aircraft?
Kaptin M: your comments are original and very clear, which make me wonder:
1) It might be none of my business, but does every pilot in Britain belong to a union? Can some airlines there allow an open shop, as happens in some US states? Many do not pay union dues nor belong. Most airline pilots here in the "states" realize that we are not looked upon as white-collar staff, but highly-skilled "blue collar" technicians, even if we wear military-style uniforms. Speaking of which, most pilots here tend to be rather conservative and find this 'blue-collar' self-image difficult to accept, especially some ex-military types (with many exceptions). Several years ago, a FEDEX Captain who I had jumpseated with told me weeks later (in one of our hubs), that a retired Naval Aviator who then flew as A-300 First Officer, told him that he liked the job so much that he would almost work for free (what a naiive sucker-perfect airline grey-haired cadet in his 40s...)! The Captain had no military check coming in each month and strongly resented the one fellow's attitude, and maybe others' similar views.
2) As has been said before on Pprune, you folks in Britain/Europe are now experiencing what thousands of US airline pilots have experienced since deregulation began here about 20 years ago. This followed two (OPEC) oil-embargo recessions during the 70s and an ATC strike and third recession (about '81), each of which caused thousands of furloughed pilots etc. Never mind in about '91. There were thousands of pilots at TWA, now without jobs, and at other once-fine airlines, some of which were ruined by the glut of bean-counter or attorney-CEOs running around from company to company, wailing about labor as the scapegoat. Some of these are ruthless vampires who can jeopardize our careers more than a thousand bank robbers could ever do-and it is legal. The sneaky ones own just enough stock to have ownership, and they quickly but smoothly "upstream" millions of dollars out of the airline into their holding companies. This is why many holding companies were created. One offered lucrative jobs to government judges after (or during?) certain key decisions were made in their favor, i.e. Texas Air Corporation.
Most major US airlines are now in a situation where our retirement "plans" years from now might be worth less than half of what a career long-distance lorry/truck driver might have-especially if he drives for the Teamsters (union) western region. I sat next to a truck driver not long ago on a plane who is retiring, and we discussed dollars, however tasteless this seems. Delta Airlines just sharply reduced its maximum fares with "Simplifares"-a 'brilliant move', reducing its revenue with the self-deception that it will keep people from lining up for the low-cost carriers, after Delta just barely avoided Chapter 11-for now... The present situation has already financially crippled thousands of retired US pilots, even those who flew wide-bodies to Asia and/or Europe for a major portion of their careers. In stark contrast, the most successful airline here (possibly in the world), Southwest, which is profitable each year and able to hedge much of its fuel, pays its pilots better than any other US carrier, and is heavily unionized!
Let's hope that you all don't see this select retirement "club" of impending gloom and doom on your horizons. Don't socialized governments have better regulations to prevent this very grim but real possibility?
1) It might be none of my business, but does every pilot in Britain belong to a union? Can some airlines there allow an open shop, as happens in some US states? Many do not pay union dues nor belong. Most airline pilots here in the "states" realize that we are not looked upon as white-collar staff, but highly-skilled "blue collar" technicians, even if we wear military-style uniforms. Speaking of which, most pilots here tend to be rather conservative and find this 'blue-collar' self-image difficult to accept, especially some ex-military types (with many exceptions). Several years ago, a FEDEX Captain who I had jumpseated with told me weeks later (in one of our hubs), that a retired Naval Aviator who then flew as A-300 First Officer, told him that he liked the job so much that he would almost work for free (what a naiive sucker-perfect airline grey-haired cadet in his 40s...)! The Captain had no military check coming in each month and strongly resented the one fellow's attitude, and maybe others' similar views.
2) As has been said before on Pprune, you folks in Britain/Europe are now experiencing what thousands of US airline pilots have experienced since deregulation began here about 20 years ago. This followed two (OPEC) oil-embargo recessions during the 70s and an ATC strike and third recession (about '81), each of which caused thousands of furloughed pilots etc. Never mind in about '91. There were thousands of pilots at TWA, now without jobs, and at other once-fine airlines, some of which were ruined by the glut of bean-counter or attorney-CEOs running around from company to company, wailing about labor as the scapegoat. Some of these are ruthless vampires who can jeopardize our careers more than a thousand bank robbers could ever do-and it is legal. The sneaky ones own just enough stock to have ownership, and they quickly but smoothly "upstream" millions of dollars out of the airline into their holding companies. This is why many holding companies were created. One offered lucrative jobs to government judges after (or during?) certain key decisions were made in their favor, i.e. Texas Air Corporation.
Most major US airlines are now in a situation where our retirement "plans" years from now might be worth less than half of what a career long-distance lorry/truck driver might have-especially if he drives for the Teamsters (union) western region. I sat next to a truck driver not long ago on a plane who is retiring, and we discussed dollars, however tasteless this seems. Delta Airlines just sharply reduced its maximum fares with "Simplifares"-a 'brilliant move', reducing its revenue with the self-deception that it will keep people from lining up for the low-cost carriers, after Delta just barely avoided Chapter 11-for now... The present situation has already financially crippled thousands of retired US pilots, even those who flew wide-bodies to Asia and/or Europe for a major portion of their careers. In stark contrast, the most successful airline here (possibly in the world), Southwest, which is profitable each year and able to hedge much of its fuel, pays its pilots better than any other US carrier, and is heavily unionized!
Let's hope that you all don't see this select retirement "club" of impending gloom and doom on your horizons. Don't socialized governments have better regulations to prevent this very grim but real possibility?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 2nd Feb 2005 at 19:09.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to let you know guys it's not that differant in the rotary world. In the summer as a heli instructor I can do as many as 65 hrs in work a week over 5 days, doing maybe 20 hrs flying and my annual salary is something like 15-18 grand a year.
To be a heli flight instructor you will need to fork out about 60 grand 35 grand to commercial leval but no one will give you a job with less than 200 hrs, and yes everyone at that leval will work for nothing to get the hrs up.
Don't get me wrong flying is a great thing to do but a career ?? I personaly am looking else where for a job that pays better, and maybe leaving the industry if I can find another job I like and still afford to fly when I want.
The problem is I think is that managers know that if they get rid of one pilot they can just get another who will be more than happy to work for less, as long as there are more pilots than jobs this will continue.The problem however is that not all pilots are the same and lots of people out there with licences should not be in charge of a dishwasher let alone an aircraft with hundreds of people on. So how long till fix wing and rotary start falling out of the sky ?????????
To be a heli flight instructor you will need to fork out about 60 grand 35 grand to commercial leval but no one will give you a job with less than 200 hrs, and yes everyone at that leval will work for nothing to get the hrs up.
Don't get me wrong flying is a great thing to do but a career ?? I personaly am looking else where for a job that pays better, and maybe leaving the industry if I can find another job I like and still afford to fly when I want.
The problem is I think is that managers know that if they get rid of one pilot they can just get another who will be more than happy to work for less, as long as there are more pilots than jobs this will continue.The problem however is that not all pilots are the same and lots of people out there with licences should not be in charge of a dishwasher let alone an aircraft with hundreds of people on. So how long till fix wing and rotary start falling out of the sky ?????????
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From here the view is lovely
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crazybroadsword is right about the rotary industry. I am a heli charter pilot. Often find myself struggling with weather, pax, AC snags and all the rest. Fortunately because our side of the industry is so small pilots and ops will back each other up across company divides. However when the impossible has been achieved the thanks is minimal and the pay would definately make a self employed plumber weep. (at least 2 have told me they wouldn't do my job/hours for my money) And if it all goes horribly wrong it is usually VERY HIGH PROFILE because of the nature of the customers.
Aviation is bloody cut throat and will remain so. Maybe its about time we pilots started cutting some throats
Aviation is bloody cut throat and will remain so. Maybe its about time we pilots started cutting some throats
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: ex Hong Kong
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am 45 years old, with 13,000 hours and a double digit seniority number. I am a senior captain, flying wide-body Airbus. I could give 15 more years to this industry. But, I have reached the dispirited stage and (mercifully) the dispassionate age where I have decided to 'vote with my feet' and leave aviation for something more meaningful.
My disenchantment has been carefully generated by the tone and style of the airlines I have worked for. I don't want to be treated especially well, and don't need to be revered or applauded. I just want some courtesy and common respect. I am a person of reasonable intelligence, acceptable aptitude and dedicated application. I like to think that I am representative of a good (not perfect) and diligent employee. Sadly it's not enough.
I no longer have much tolerance for demeaning treatment; stupid SOP's; 'dumbing-down' our occupation; and, the creeping, incremental disregard for genuinely well-intentioned employees.
My disenchantment has been carefully generated by the tone and style of the airlines I have worked for. I don't want to be treated especially well, and don't need to be revered or applauded. I just want some courtesy and common respect. I am a person of reasonable intelligence, acceptable aptitude and dedicated application. I like to think that I am representative of a good (not perfect) and diligent employee. Sadly it's not enough.
I no longer have much tolerance for demeaning treatment; stupid SOP's; 'dumbing-down' our occupation; and, the creeping, incremental disregard for genuinely well-intentioned employees.