Attention BA staff and shareholders
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Hey!
Think I have to agree with Heavy crew here..
And say, sometimes you boys/girls in the front should open up your eyes a bit.
btw, WHY do you think we would like to marry any of you????
just a question???
Think I have to agree with Heavy crew here..
And say, sometimes you boys/girls in the front should open up your eyes a bit.
btw, WHY do you think we would like to marry any of you????
just a question???
the lunatic fringe
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Ths
eeer who said I or anyone wanted to marry you?
and ditto. Sometimes you boys/girls in the back should open up your eyes a bit.
But then you are all too busy getting the service finished so that you can maximise your time in the bunk. Lets be honest that is a fact.
L337
btw, WHY do you think we would like to marry any of you????
and ditto. Sometimes you boys/girls in the back should open up your eyes a bit.
But then you are all too busy getting the service finished so that you can maximise your time in the bunk. Lets be honest that is a fact.
L337
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L337
just so you know...
it's very easy to judge people..
(but these postings from you, really show your attitude against us crew, and it makes me even more glad I'm not first class trained so I have to deal with guys like you).
There's a lot of us, Me included actually like to work, as an ex Shorthaul crew.. we do..
and as it was said before, LGW 777 don't have any bunks.
so the LGW crew can't do bunk rest.. and I much rather work than sleep. (coz I feel s**t if i do)
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Just to refresh your memory, suffering from part timers L337?
L337
just so you know...
it's very easy to judge people..
(but these postings from you, really show your attitude against us crew, and it makes me even more glad I'm not first class trained so I have to deal with guys like you).
There's a lot of us, Me included actually like to work, as an ex Shorthaul crew.. we do..
and as it was said before, LGW 777 don't have any bunks.
so the LGW crew can't do bunk rest.. and I much rather work than sleep. (coz I feel s**t if i do)
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Just to refresh your memory, suffering from part timers L337?
L337
Thank God I am not married to you. You remind me of my ex.
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I was going start a new post with this but i think it best tacked along here,forget the whos getting paid what for a moment.>>>>
In this era of "Naming and shaming " i wondered if its only me that reads the jobs section of the Beano for BA?,as a shareholder and employee of this troubled company battling as it is against the low cost carriers such as Easyjet and Ryanair its always nice to see an advert for 2 "more" ( didn't see any leave in the departures section ) Senior Managers.The titles for these essential individuals is " Pricing and inventory Managers " .
As the saying goes " Creating BallS*** jobs while all around you are making money - Priceless "
Is it only me???
In this era of "Naming and shaming " i wondered if its only me that reads the jobs section of the Beano for BA?,as a shareholder and employee of this troubled company battling as it is against the low cost carriers such as Easyjet and Ryanair its always nice to see an advert for 2 "more" ( didn't see any leave in the departures section ) Senior Managers.The titles for these essential individuals is " Pricing and inventory Managers " .
As the saying goes " Creating BallS*** jobs while all around you are making money - Priceless "
Is it only me???
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L337 - fair comment about CC maximising rest time and minimising service. On my last trip from ORD it was virtually panic stations from the CC snatching up trays and pulling down the blinds!
'Pax want to get some sleep'....yeah, whether they like it or not!
Perhaps someone within CC can justify to shareholders exactly why they get 'Destination Payments'??? e.g MIA
As HZ123 said this thread is about justifying extra payments to CC when others get nothing for working one down, so lets hear the justification...please.
I theng yow
'Pax want to get some sleep'....yeah, whether they like it or not! Perhaps someone within CC can justify to shareholders exactly why they get 'Destination Payments'??? e.g MIA
As HZ123 said this thread is about justifying extra payments to CC when others get nothing for working one down, so lets hear the justification...please.
I theng yow
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Human I agree with most of your post, however it would not be possible to achieve the change in old contract LHR crew by benchmarking as the terms and conditions are the same the only difference between old and new is BASIC SALARY.
As such you can't (quite rightly) cut somebodys salary because of a benchmarking exercise where would it end.
What may however help is a pay restructuring exercise like you pilots recently did as this would mean that the variables would be spread more evenly over LGW and LHR EF not as is currently all at LHR WW Bdiv where the majority are old contract.
L337 your point about the two man operation is what?
Yes I accept that when two men operate they don't use a first seat but from gatwick the operation is mostly three so you do use a first seat.
I stated that pilots get 100% more horizontal rest, even if it was the minority of your trips that had a first seat, which it is not, as I never have bunks therefore pilots have 100% more horizontal rest than me.
Again Dark star I am amazed, though not suprised, you have got it wrong again.
Destination payments are and have never been extra payments to cabin crew.
The destination payment came about after the reshuffling of pay to create the new contract in 1997.
As you probably don't know Cabin crew used to get paid overtime after 9 hours, in 1997 this was increased to 12.30 along with MT and london weighting and others this was put partly into basic and partly into other payments, those being Back to back payments and destination payments.
Cabin crew management felt it would improve attendance for back to backs and make low allowance trips more appealing.
As usual you state
Perhaps someone within CC can justify to shareholders exactly why they get 'Destination Payments'??? e.g MIA
As if this was a new payment made to cabin crew but as I have pointed out you are infact incorrect it is just money that cabin crew always earned just redirected.
As for your comment about cabin crew maximising rest well lets be honest here I am sure that the cabin crew started their rest over an hour after the flight crew started their rest.
Basically it appears that you wish to have the pilots live by different rules to cabin crew after all I have never seen cabin crew get upset when the flight crew start their HORIZONTAL REST 45 mins after take off through to 45 mins to go.
Especially when you consider that my break in a noisy WT seat for a much shorter time, your comment might make me a liitle p!ssed off.
Basically Dark star it does look like people in glass houses throwing stones here.
As such you can't (quite rightly) cut somebodys salary because of a benchmarking exercise where would it end.
What may however help is a pay restructuring exercise like you pilots recently did as this would mean that the variables would be spread more evenly over LGW and LHR EF not as is currently all at LHR WW Bdiv where the majority are old contract.
L337 your point about the two man operation is what?
Yes I accept that when two men operate they don't use a first seat but from gatwick the operation is mostly three so you do use a first seat.
I stated that pilots get 100% more horizontal rest, even if it was the minority of your trips that had a first seat, which it is not, as I never have bunks therefore pilots have 100% more horizontal rest than me.
Again Dark star I am amazed, though not suprised, you have got it wrong again.
Destination payments are and have never been extra payments to cabin crew.
The destination payment came about after the reshuffling of pay to create the new contract in 1997.
As you probably don't know Cabin crew used to get paid overtime after 9 hours, in 1997 this was increased to 12.30 along with MT and london weighting and others this was put partly into basic and partly into other payments, those being Back to back payments and destination payments.
Cabin crew management felt it would improve attendance for back to backs and make low allowance trips more appealing.
As usual you state
Perhaps someone within CC can justify to shareholders exactly why they get 'Destination Payments'??? e.g MIA
As if this was a new payment made to cabin crew but as I have pointed out you are infact incorrect it is just money that cabin crew always earned just redirected.
As for your comment about cabin crew maximising rest well lets be honest here I am sure that the cabin crew started their rest over an hour after the flight crew started their rest.
Basically it appears that you wish to have the pilots live by different rules to cabin crew after all I have never seen cabin crew get upset when the flight crew start their HORIZONTAL REST 45 mins after take off through to 45 mins to go.
Especially when you consider that my break in a noisy WT seat for a much shorter time, your comment might make me a liitle p!ssed off.
Basically Dark star it does look like people in glass houses throwing stones here.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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A pretty deep and entrenched attitude very evident between front and rear it would seem. Probably taken years to develope and years to get rid of, and certainly not here, though possibly, some reasonable points intelligibly made might give rise to reflection on what is essentialy a cancer eating away at the company from the inside. It hurts you guys and it probably wouldn't go amiss to ponder that along with all the other disagreements.
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Can I make a comment to dark star and all the other pilots who seem to think that cabin crew are always in the bunks.
Perhaps we should benchmark against Virgin.
After all I have not seen a bunk at LGW for years and lets not forget that the 767 has no bunks and lots of 777's at LHR don't have bunks it certainly doesn't compare well to Virgin.
After all every A/C in their fleet have bunks.
But still you fools still think that BA cabin crew have it so easy.
Perhaps when you look at us you are thinking about how the pilots are treated?
That would explain how you have it sooo wrong sooo often.
Peter brat wise words again, mostly in truth Cabin crew have a good idea about our collegues in the flight decks T&C's.
We see things like the breaks in first and other things that we would never get, we don't hold it against them and in truth would certainly not want to have tired pilots.
It does however grate, when the people who are treated so much better by the company, look down and spit on us with contempt.
You don't have to read many of these posts to see this and Dark star's comments about cabin crew allways being in bunks taking horizontal rest is just typical of the sort of moronic distain we constantly have to endure.
Basically If cabin crew had things half as good as many of our pilots mistakenly believe we would not be losing as many as we are and the payments that were made recently would never have been necesary.
Perhaps we should benchmark against Virgin.
After all I have not seen a bunk at LGW for years and lets not forget that the 767 has no bunks and lots of 777's at LHR don't have bunks it certainly doesn't compare well to Virgin.
After all every A/C in their fleet have bunks.
But still you fools still think that BA cabin crew have it so easy.
Perhaps when you look at us you are thinking about how the pilots are treated?
That would explain how you have it sooo wrong sooo often.
Peter brat wise words again, mostly in truth Cabin crew have a good idea about our collegues in the flight decks T&C's.
We see things like the breaks in first and other things that we would never get, we don't hold it against them and in truth would certainly not want to have tired pilots.
It does however grate, when the people who are treated so much better by the company, look down and spit on us with contempt.
You don't have to read many of these posts to see this and Dark star's comments about cabin crew allways being in bunks taking horizontal rest is just typical of the sort of moronic distain we constantly have to endure.
Basically If cabin crew had things half as good as many of our pilots mistakenly believe we would not be losing as many as we are and the payments that were made recently would never have been necesary.
Last edited by heavy crew; 13th Apr 2004 at 13:03.
the lunatic fringe
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heavy crew:
I despare with your posts. Just some lines you use with regard pilots.
"But still you fools"
"That would explain how you have it sooo wrong sooo often"
"spit on us with contempt"
"moronic distain we constantly have to endure"
"Well its muppets like you"
"Well to be frank iff you lifted your b@lls out of your eyes"
"only so many times you can hear some self rightous clown shout"
"like most pilots on here, it appears your comments are ill informed"
"pilots like you who have no vision of the real truth that keep annoying us"
To quote you again.
"Most of your comments are just derisory and I can't see what you expect to gain from them except curt derogatory statements back"
Look in the mirror heavy crew.
BA has roughly 3500 pilots. 15,000 cabin crew. Of which 20? post on Pprune. Of those 20 how many are windup merchants? How many would say black is white just to cause an argument? Posting abuse about pilots here is no more good than pilots posting abuse about Cabin Crew. If you want to change things, here is not the place to vent your frustration. In my humble opinion. As a pilot. On the 747-400. At LHR.
I will now retreat behind my locked door
L337
I despare with your posts. Just some lines you use with regard pilots.
"But still you fools"
"That would explain how you have it sooo wrong sooo often"
"spit on us with contempt"
"moronic distain we constantly have to endure"
"Well its muppets like you"
"Well to be frank iff you lifted your b@lls out of your eyes"
"only so many times you can hear some self rightous clown shout"
"like most pilots on here, it appears your comments are ill informed"
"pilots like you who have no vision of the real truth that keep annoying us"
To quote you again.
"Most of your comments are just derisory and I can't see what you expect to gain from them except curt derogatory statements back"
Look in the mirror heavy crew.
BA has roughly 3500 pilots. 15,000 cabin crew. Of which 20? post on Pprune. Of those 20 how many are windup merchants? How many would say black is white just to cause an argument? Posting abuse about pilots here is no more good than pilots posting abuse about Cabin Crew. If you want to change things, here is not the place to vent your frustration. In my humble opinion. As a pilot. On the 747-400. At LHR.
I will now retreat behind my locked door
L337
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Where would you suggest?
I must say that I meant every word of those comments to the people they were aimed at.
Do not assume that I am not aware that here is only a small group of windup merchants who post on here as I am.
It is the silent majority who read these posts that I am trying to get through to.
I have noticed over the past couple of years and more so, since the advent of the door, that BA pilots have become more and more critical towards Cabin crew.
I also noticed down route that the same unfounded arguements came out over a beer after a flight.
I wondered why, then, I was told about this site and the balpa site.
Obviously I can't gain access to the balpa site, so I joined this one, yet again I have been accused, as a representitive of cabin crew, of the same things as down route.
Hopefully the silent majority will read this post with now a cabin crew voice to answer the questions and the truth will now become prevelant and hopefully in time replace conjecture and misinformation.
In the next few months I hope to be lambasted less and less till it becomes no more.
I accept that I may have been confrontational with some posters on here, but IMHO it was the only way to get all the untruths out, after all you wouldn't want to upset a reasonable contributor would you?
So to get to the end, I feel that I have clearly demonstrated that
Cabin crew are not underworked
I worked 991 flying hours last year.
Cabin crew are not overpaid.
Easy and Ryan both earn more than we do for comperable hours and we deliver greater levels of cabin service, we certainly don't need to look at Air France ect to find better pay.
Cabin crew are not always in the bunks.
Cabin crew mostly don't have bunks let alone spend all flight in them, especially when compared to our flight crew collegues or Virgin Who have bunks on every A/C.
Cabin crew get extra money to fly to unpopular destinations.
The destination payment like the back 2 back payment was money that was already being paid as MT allowance, london weighting ect it was reallocated during BEP, I am sure we would prefer it in our basic but thats another story.
The company would be OK if we could just get the cabin crew to accept benchmarking.
The top and bottom of the situation is that, as you see above, BA cabin crew is not in any way head and shoulders above everyone.
There would be no benefit to a benchmarking situation except to highlight that some are paid more and some work less than BA cabin crew.
The only thing many pilots want to change is the old contract.
As the terms and conditions for all mainline BA cabin crew is the same, the only thing that is different is the basic salarys, obviously a benchmarking will not enable people to have their salary cut and nor should it.
It should be noted however that Inflight services wage bill gets cheaper per head as each year goes by, something that can't be said for Flight Ops.
That with ryan air effectivly giving their pilots a pay cut this year who knows, when the old benchmarking comes round to you guys again what will the result be then?
I am not here to have a go at our pilot collegues just to defend the cabin crew from the groundless accusations as mentioned above.
I must say that I meant every word of those comments to the people they were aimed at.
Do not assume that I am not aware that here is only a small group of windup merchants who post on here as I am.
It is the silent majority who read these posts that I am trying to get through to.
I have noticed over the past couple of years and more so, since the advent of the door, that BA pilots have become more and more critical towards Cabin crew.
I also noticed down route that the same unfounded arguements came out over a beer after a flight.
I wondered why, then, I was told about this site and the balpa site.
Obviously I can't gain access to the balpa site, so I joined this one, yet again I have been accused, as a representitive of cabin crew, of the same things as down route.
Hopefully the silent majority will read this post with now a cabin crew voice to answer the questions and the truth will now become prevelant and hopefully in time replace conjecture and misinformation.
In the next few months I hope to be lambasted less and less till it becomes no more.
I accept that I may have been confrontational with some posters on here, but IMHO it was the only way to get all the untruths out, after all you wouldn't want to upset a reasonable contributor would you?
So to get to the end, I feel that I have clearly demonstrated that
Cabin crew are not underworked
I worked 991 flying hours last year.
Cabin crew are not overpaid.
Easy and Ryan both earn more than we do for comperable hours and we deliver greater levels of cabin service, we certainly don't need to look at Air France ect to find better pay.
Cabin crew are not always in the bunks.
Cabin crew mostly don't have bunks let alone spend all flight in them, especially when compared to our flight crew collegues or Virgin Who have bunks on every A/C.
Cabin crew get extra money to fly to unpopular destinations.
The destination payment like the back 2 back payment was money that was already being paid as MT allowance, london weighting ect it was reallocated during BEP, I am sure we would prefer it in our basic but thats another story.
The company would be OK if we could just get the cabin crew to accept benchmarking.
The top and bottom of the situation is that, as you see above, BA cabin crew is not in any way head and shoulders above everyone.
There would be no benefit to a benchmarking situation except to highlight that some are paid more and some work less than BA cabin crew.
The only thing many pilots want to change is the old contract.
As the terms and conditions for all mainline BA cabin crew is the same, the only thing that is different is the basic salarys, obviously a benchmarking will not enable people to have their salary cut and nor should it.
It should be noted however that Inflight services wage bill gets cheaper per head as each year goes by, something that can't be said for Flight Ops.
That with ryan air effectivly giving their pilots a pay cut this year who knows, when the old benchmarking comes round to you guys again what will the result be then?
I am not here to have a go at our pilot collegues just to defend the cabin crew from the groundless accusations as mentioned above.
Last edited by heavy crew; 13th Apr 2004 at 15:38.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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The simple courtesy of acknowledging each others neccessity in a joint operation would be a starting point. Pilots cannot look after the pax nor can cabin staff exist without the cockpit crew, just yet that is.
The language that is generaly being used in describing those working in opposite ends of the aircraft also appears hostile and antagonistic. Toning down the rhetoric and obvious derision for each other and substituting simple politeness would be another step forward... a small step true, but a start at least.
The language that is generaly being used in describing those working in opposite ends of the aircraft also appears hostile and antagonistic. Toning down the rhetoric and obvious derision for each other and substituting simple politeness would be another step forward... a small step true, but a start at least.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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On the subject of benchmarking against Virgin:
Can I be contracted for 750 flying hours a year please? I did 830ish last year with no overtime.
Can I be contracted for 750 flying hours a year please? I did 830ish last year with no overtime.
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This is so foolish............
Pilots and Cabin Crew at one anothers throats here.
Engineers and Cabin Crew having a go at one another HERE ......
The bloody Management must be laughing their socks off!!!!
Our combined efforts would be so much better spent "naming and shaming" some crap managers with a little story to highlight just how awful they are.
Come on you lot, keep your eye on the ball and look for the real wasters and oxygen theives.
Love
LP
Pilots and Cabin Crew at one anothers throats here.
Engineers and Cabin Crew having a go at one another HERE ......
The bloody Management must be laughing their socks off!!!!
Our combined efforts would be so much better spent "naming and shaming" some crap managers with a little story to highlight just how awful they are.
Come on you lot, keep your eye on the ball and look for the real wasters and oxygen theives.
Love
LP
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Le Pen
Well said, after all the airline NEEDS Pilots, Cabin Crew and Engineers,i am now pasting my post from a day or so ago to make my point - If you read this ROD i hope you approved the creation of 2 More Senior Managers - if the managers laugh at us then the Easy or Ryanair managers must laugh at the whole airline.
****************************************
was going start a new post with this but i think it best tacked along here,forget the whos getting paid what for a moment.>>>>
In this era of "Naming and shaming " i wondered if its only me that reads the jobs section of the Beano for BA?,as a shareholder and employee of this troubled company battling as it is against the low cost carriers such as Easyjet and Ryanair its always nice to see an advert for 2 "more" ( didn't see any leave in the departures section ) Senior Managers.The titles for these essential individuals is " Pricing and inventory Managers " .
As the saying goes " Creating BallS*** jobs while all around you are making money - Priceless "
Is it only me???
Well said, after all the airline NEEDS Pilots, Cabin Crew and Engineers,i am now pasting my post from a day or so ago to make my point - If you read this ROD i hope you approved the creation of 2 More Senior Managers - if the managers laugh at us then the Easy or Ryanair managers must laugh at the whole airline.
****************************************
was going start a new post with this but i think it best tacked along here,forget the whos getting paid what for a moment.>>>>
In this era of "Naming and shaming " i wondered if its only me that reads the jobs section of the Beano for BA?,as a shareholder and employee of this troubled company battling as it is against the low cost carriers such as Easyjet and Ryanair its always nice to see an advert for 2 "more" ( didn't see any leave in the departures section ) Senior Managers.The titles for these essential individuals is " Pricing and inventory Managers " .
As the saying goes " Creating BallS*** jobs while all around you are making money - Priceless "
Is it only me???
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Can anyone enlighten me please?
Are BA not planning to install the OHCRs in the B777s??
I know some of at least one big carrier which started having them put in at the backend of last year.
Six
Are BA not planning to install the OHCRs in the B777s??
I know some of at least one big carrier which started having them put in at the backend of last year.
Six
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To Heavy Crew...
I think that it is time to stop your pages of vitreolic comments about your pilots. I think we are all sick to death of your personal lambasting of them on this website. Pprune is meant for general comment. You may have your own vindictive reasons, but you seem to have lost control.
Please remember that pilots are highly skilled and qualified people. You need them to get you back on the ground! Your qualifications for making a cup of tea (begrudgingly) hardly match.
If you hate it so much and have such poor CRM then I suggest you leave.
By the way...how come you get so much time off to put your lengthy posts on here, day after day???
I think that it is time to stop your pages of vitreolic comments about your pilots. I think we are all sick to death of your personal lambasting of them on this website. Pprune is meant for general comment. You may have your own vindictive reasons, but you seem to have lost control.
Please remember that pilots are highly skilled and qualified people. You need them to get you back on the ground! Your qualifications for making a cup of tea (begrudgingly) hardly match.
If you hate it so much and have such poor CRM then I suggest you leave.
By the way...how come you get so much time off to put your lengthy posts on here, day after day???
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Peterbrat yet again a valid post, I honestly don't think that we can or want to do our job without pilots, I shall try to follow your points however.
Human I don't think it is in doubt that BA pilots are efficient this thread is about how inefficient and overpaid the flight crew feel the cabin crew are.
I certainly accept that if you worked for virgin you would be getting overtime payments, I know of pilots who are getting pay deductions from ba due to not reaching CAP yet they would get overtime at Virgin.
If I however worked to the same hours as virgin, 750 hours per year would be part time, I would be doing 75%.
I am not saying that Virgin pilots should work harder I just feel perhaps we should look at how hard BA flight and cabin crew do work.
Le pen You are 100% right.
Hello again openfly, I don't feel I have lost control at all.
I do feel I have made some ground and hoprfully changed a few incorrect assumtions about the unqualified tea makers as you call us.
Where do you get the Idea that I hate my job and that I have Bad CRM, after all if I hated my job why would I spend the time and effort defending the cabin crew corner.
As for CRM you have obviously forgotten what it is about since you have left the flight deck and now fly considerably as a premium passinger.
IMHO when at work, I work hard with the pilots and we create aan excellent team, I was not aware that I have to agree with every comment to have good CRM.
One part of CRM that you have obviously forgotten, whilst having your new career sitting in our premium cabins, is that good resorce management means never taking things at face value and finding out what resorces are onboard.
Therefore you have overlooked the fact that though I give out tea or coffee I may well be better qualified than you think and have hidden qualities you are overlooking, infact I know that is the case.
I also feel, as was pointed out in a previous post, that the pilots I am debateing with here, are the minority but many read their comments and up untill recently, these pilots have been getting only one side of the debate, I am enjoying my time on here leveling the playing field.
Fortunately openfly unlike yourself I have no intentions of leaving BA, I am well regarded by my collegues (even if I do say so myself) both within the flight deck and in the cabin and on the ground.
This is bourne out by my OPS file and the fact I have many yes many awards from my substantial time working as cabin crew.
After all I give even more effort to my role onboard than I do to these forums.
As to your last comment,
By the way...how come you get so much time off to put your lengthy posts on here, day after day???
I agree after all I did over 90 flying hours this month and that includes 4 days leave, but notebook computers can access this site at any time from most locations.
Well, thats me, I do agree with you it is absolutely disgracefull that at a time of cut backs and cash being king we are getting even more managers.
It truly shows that the lunatics are running the asylum.
There are however new managers being appointed within IFS, as if we don't have enough already, to monitor the monitoring of attendance, that at a time when sources within scheduling say that cabin crew sickness is at record low levels.
This whole thread was started by a suit at waterside inflaming the pilot community against the cabin crew community, I suppose if he is succesful then that will open up more jobs for his mates and less for front line people. which of course we all are.
Human I don't think it is in doubt that BA pilots are efficient this thread is about how inefficient and overpaid the flight crew feel the cabin crew are.
I certainly accept that if you worked for virgin you would be getting overtime payments, I know of pilots who are getting pay deductions from ba due to not reaching CAP yet they would get overtime at Virgin.
If I however worked to the same hours as virgin, 750 hours per year would be part time, I would be doing 75%.
I am not saying that Virgin pilots should work harder I just feel perhaps we should look at how hard BA flight and cabin crew do work.
Le pen You are 100% right.
Hello again openfly, I don't feel I have lost control at all.
I do feel I have made some ground and hoprfully changed a few incorrect assumtions about the unqualified tea makers as you call us.
Where do you get the Idea that I hate my job and that I have Bad CRM, after all if I hated my job why would I spend the time and effort defending the cabin crew corner.
As for CRM you have obviously forgotten what it is about since you have left the flight deck and now fly considerably as a premium passinger.
IMHO when at work, I work hard with the pilots and we create aan excellent team, I was not aware that I have to agree with every comment to have good CRM.
One part of CRM that you have obviously forgotten, whilst having your new career sitting in our premium cabins, is that good resorce management means never taking things at face value and finding out what resorces are onboard.
Therefore you have overlooked the fact that though I give out tea or coffee I may well be better qualified than you think and have hidden qualities you are overlooking, infact I know that is the case.
I also feel, as was pointed out in a previous post, that the pilots I am debateing with here, are the minority but many read their comments and up untill recently, these pilots have been getting only one side of the debate, I am enjoying my time on here leveling the playing field.
Fortunately openfly unlike yourself I have no intentions of leaving BA, I am well regarded by my collegues (even if I do say so myself) both within the flight deck and in the cabin and on the ground.
This is bourne out by my OPS file and the fact I have many yes many awards from my substantial time working as cabin crew.
After all I give even more effort to my role onboard than I do to these forums.
As to your last comment,
By the way...how come you get so much time off to put your lengthy posts on here, day after day???
I agree after all I did over 90 flying hours this month and that includes 4 days leave, but notebook computers can access this site at any time from most locations.
Well, thats me, I do agree with you it is absolutely disgracefull that at a time of cut backs and cash being king we are getting even more managers.
It truly shows that the lunatics are running the asylum.
There are however new managers being appointed within IFS, as if we don't have enough already, to monitor the monitoring of attendance, that at a time when sources within scheduling say that cabin crew sickness is at record low levels.
This whole thread was started by a suit at waterside inflaming the pilot community against the cabin crew community, I suppose if he is succesful then that will open up more jobs for his mates and less for front line people. which of course we all are.
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My, talk about "lighting the blue touch paper and retire", or "turn the engines off and the whining continues".
I originally posted a copy of a letter to CSD's which had been left on an aerobridge at T4. This letter was copied, and handed or faxed to fellow employees at LHR, and worldwide.
It highlighted the way BA was dealing with an apparent "shortage of cabin crew", by paying them hundreds of
pounds per sector.
I did not do it to "inflame the pilot community against the cabin crew community", I just thought you might find it interesting, or at worst worrying.
The vitriol and bitchiness that resulted is very sad.
Yes, I work in Waterside, and as such my uniform is a suit. In my time in BA, both before and since privatisation, I have seen a lot of changes, some for good, some for bad.
It is disappointing that Cabin Services has to pay their crews an extra sum to work one crew member down. This doesnt happen in Reservations, Engineering, Telephone Sales, Finance, Aircraft Despatch, Cabin Services support areas or other departments.
I stated fact.
Facts posted by others were "HKG LHR CSD £ 218.52 Main crew £ 135.41 plus £ 41.18 / hour over 12 hrs 30 for a CSD and £53.17 after 15 hours for this one sector , plus allowances plus basic salary. Destination payment £ 62.66 back to back payment £170.83."
For the crew members concerned about their Diner's bills.....the amount on your bill is as a result of your personal spending down-route. Be it spending at Crate and Barrel, the Truck in NRT, or McDonald's. Whilst on board cabin crew receive both free meals, and allowances for meals. The reasons behind this are historical, but it doesn't happen alsewhere in BA.
One example of statements which I consider to be less than factual are "For the record.. we do not stay in 5 star hotels", and there were numerous others.
Once again, if any of you actually know of any jobs which are "surplus", please let Rod Eddington know. We suits would like BA to survive as much as most contributors to this forum.
toodles
Swiss_Tonni
Scorchio!!!
I originally posted a copy of a letter to CSD's which had been left on an aerobridge at T4. This letter was copied, and handed or faxed to fellow employees at LHR, and worldwide.
It highlighted the way BA was dealing with an apparent "shortage of cabin crew", by paying them hundreds of
pounds per sector.
I did not do it to "inflame the pilot community against the cabin crew community", I just thought you might find it interesting, or at worst worrying.
The vitriol and bitchiness that resulted is very sad.
Yes, I work in Waterside, and as such my uniform is a suit. In my time in BA, both before and since privatisation, I have seen a lot of changes, some for good, some for bad.
It is disappointing that Cabin Services has to pay their crews an extra sum to work one crew member down. This doesnt happen in Reservations, Engineering, Telephone Sales, Finance, Aircraft Despatch, Cabin Services support areas or other departments.
I stated fact.
Facts posted by others were "HKG LHR CSD £ 218.52 Main crew £ 135.41 plus £ 41.18 / hour over 12 hrs 30 for a CSD and £53.17 after 15 hours for this one sector , plus allowances plus basic salary. Destination payment £ 62.66 back to back payment £170.83."
For the crew members concerned about their Diner's bills.....the amount on your bill is as a result of your personal spending down-route. Be it spending at Crate and Barrel, the Truck in NRT, or McDonald's. Whilst on board cabin crew receive both free meals, and allowances for meals. The reasons behind this are historical, but it doesn't happen alsewhere in BA.
One example of statements which I consider to be less than factual are "For the record.. we do not stay in 5 star hotels", and there were numerous others.
Once again, if any of you actually know of any jobs which are "surplus", please let Rod Eddington know. We suits would like BA to survive as much as most contributors to this forum.
toodles
Swiss_Tonni
Scorchio!!!
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It is disappointing that Cabin Services has to pay their crews an extra sum to work one crew member down.
What I find 'disappointing' is the fact that on this thread, it would seem that Cabin Crew just can't seem to do anything right. For instance, on the one hand people lambast BA C/C for a payment for working crew members short. Yet on the other, people call out for 'benchmarking' (which would apparently bring the 'overinflated' 9,000 a year salary down to more realisticly low levels). In actual fact, this 'benchmarking' would show that BA is actually already 'benchmarked' with many major carriers who routinely pay their crew for working short.
United Airlines pays crew members a premium for every crew member short. So if you fly the 747 LHR-SFO with 12 crew instead of 18, they get a substantial allowance. The flip side is that because the 'short crew' are getting paid extra for this, UA expects that the full service still be completed (albeit with allowances for the fact it will take much longer than usual to complete the services). A good friend of mine recently worked AMS-ORD with only 3 crew members working Economy on a 767. One of them was the designated aft galley position, so that left 2 crew members, one for each aisle. Yes, they got short staffing, but I think they would have much rather have not taken the extra $$, and had full crew with a pleasant working environment and good service for the passengers, and not an 8 hour 'stress-a-thon' trying to serve 150+ people with a full trans-atlantic inflight meal, beverage and duty free service.
'Benchmarking' might also show that BA Crews work more hours than many of their full service counterparts at AF, LH, UA, AA, NW, CO etc etc, most of whom work no more than 780-800 'hard' hours a year max. So if you want to compare 'apples to apples' with total compensation, you might want to reduce the total by a percentile mirroring the reduced number of hours worked at other carriers to obtain a more 'true' picture.
While I don't dispute that some of the 20+ year service L/H LHR crew might take home a fairly goodly sum, the reality is that for people like me starting today, the salary is 'reasonable', but certainly not 'generous'. We are told to expect 1000-1200 a month take home (however some of that is to cover the cost of meals etc downroute). I hear that some S/Haul crew can make more than this, but it is not guaranteed. Now I don't know about you, but as a single person in London, with a salary of 9,000, a mortgage broker would laugh in your face if you tried to buy anything other than a garden shed. Even if they factor in your 'allowances' (despite the fact that a large proportion of these is for costs one will incur downroute etc), you are STILL struggling to come up with enough for even a one bedroom flat (god forbid a small house).
Before I am shouted at by all and sundry, am I 'complaining' about my salary. No. I understand what I am getting into, and am prepared to take 'lifestyle' and 'job satisfaction' over high $$. What I am saying is that I certainly don't feel that the crew of today are being overpaid. The higher cost of longer serving crew is a reality, but one cannot (by law) suddenly turn around and pay them 9K a year to 'benchmark' them. Over time though, as more people leave or retire, as new entrants join, BA will continue to see C/C wage costs lower.
Finally, before anyone states that the 'benchmarking' should actually be done between BA and EZY, Ryanair, Air 2000 etc, I would argue that again one has to compare like to like. British Airways is a full service 'world class' carrier. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the level of total compensation be 'benchmarked' with similar carriers (such as LH, AF, UA, AA, CO etc) with the appropriate cost of living/currency adjustments and considerations.
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I don't think anyone is complaining about the £9000 pa basic. However that doesn't tell the true picture, which is that as a new starter on short haul you'd be having a bad month if you took home less than £1200 with allowances, whilst a three year seniority steward on long haul can take home £2000 per month on a regular basis without overtime. Given the highly favourable taxation on allowances this works out to a very respectable equivalent gross salary. People lambast cabin crew for the 'working one down' payment because of its obscenely disproporionate size. In Virgin crew get £10 each per missing crew member each way. BA crew get £400 each, minimum.
Benchmarking would not include any US carriers, only European competitors. Perhaps it would show that BA crew work many more hours than our European counterparts, but at what cost? I'd like to say nobody knows, but Mike Street's seen the preliminary findings and they weren't pretty. Now, what about the absenteeism.
Benchmarking would not include any US carriers, only European competitors. Perhaps it would show that BA crew work many more hours than our European counterparts, but at what cost? I'd like to say nobody knows, but Mike Street's seen the preliminary findings and they weren't pretty. Now, what about the absenteeism.