AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
Pedalo
I was going to try and ignore your posting, with respect this is a thread that involved the loss of 4 lives, I kindly ask that you show some respect and remove your totally inappropriate and childish post? I also ask the moderator to review it and possibly decide to remove it?
Thank you
Thank you
The day that moderators remove something like that, that upsets someone looking to be upset, will be a very sad day for this forum.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 27th Aug 2013 at 21:28.
How much of an uproar would it cause if helicopter passengers were told, 'You're a big guy, so sit by the door. You're a slim guy, so sit by the removable window. You can fit through it easily, and agile enough to do it quickly.'?
My guess is that the slimmer passengers would complain like mad that they are being moved away from the larger exit, despite the fact that such a process would give a greater chance of getting everyone out alive, and it wouldn't have crossed their minds if it hadn't been brought to their attention.
There are some aspects of improving flight safety that, whilst valid, are likely never to see the light of day...
My guess is that the slimmer passengers would complain like mad that they are being moved away from the larger exit, despite the fact that such a process would give a greater chance of getting everyone out alive, and it wouldn't have crossed their minds if it hadn't been brought to their attention.
There are some aspects of improving flight safety that, whilst valid, are likely never to see the light of day...
Last edited by Mechta; 27th Aug 2013 at 21:41.
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"How much of an uproar would it cause if helicopter passengers were told, 'You're a big guy, so sit by the door. You're a slim guy, so sit by the removable window. You can fit through it easily, and agile enough to do it quickly.'
My guess is that the slimmer passengers would complain like mad that they are being moved away from the larger exit, despite the fact that such a process would give a greater chance of getting everyone out alive, and it wouldn't have crossed their minds if it hadn't been brought to their attention.
There are some aspects of improving flight safety that, whilst valid, are likely never to see the light of day..."
One thing I did notice about the 3 guys that didn't make it, was that they were all somewhat "older", ie in their 50's. The guys on the TV of the survivors coming out of the CG helicopter all looked much younger.
Is there a case for "early retirement" on safety grounds, I wonder??
FWIW, Thankfully I'm well past the age of having to get on a flight offshore, but if I did have to go, I'd have no problems getting on a SP of any variant.
Just a thought - hope you guys don't mind.
My guess is that the slimmer passengers would complain like mad that they are being moved away from the larger exit, despite the fact that such a process would give a greater chance of getting everyone out alive, and it wouldn't have crossed their minds if it hadn't been brought to their attention.
There are some aspects of improving flight safety that, whilst valid, are likely never to see the light of day..."
One thing I did notice about the 3 guys that didn't make it, was that they were all somewhat "older", ie in their 50's. The guys on the TV of the survivors coming out of the CG helicopter all looked much younger.
Is there a case for "early retirement" on safety grounds, I wonder??
FWIW, Thankfully I'm well past the age of having to get on a flight offshore, but if I did have to go, I'd have no problems getting on a SP of any variant.
Just a thought - hope you guys don't mind.
Jimf671 wrote:
Jimf671, given the choice, where would you sit? I've not flown in an EC225, but I would guess that the door, being larger, is the preferred option as an escape route?
It's crossed my mind plenty. What kind of window? A nice big EC225 window?
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No one complains about that, do they......
On the other hand, the door is harder to jettison unless you are the one sitting next to the handle.
But I do think some sense of proportion is needed (no pun intended). Yes, its true that old, fat people may find it harder to exit than young fit ones. But set against that, look at the probabilities. Even though we have had these 5 recent events, only one required very rapid evacuation and even then we don't really know the full story yet.
I have over 10,000 hrs on offshore helis is a career spanning 30 years, as do very many of my colleagues. No-one I can think of has had to make a rapid evacuation due to upturned helicopter. So for the average bear making 1 round trip every 5 weeks, the chances of having to do this is really extremely small. It would of course be a personal decision, but I see no logical reason for someone of the grey and chubby variety to give up offshore work. They are far, far more likely to die from eg a heart attack.
But I do think some sense of proportion is needed (no pun intended). Yes, its true that old, fat people may find it harder to exit than young fit ones. But set against that, look at the probabilities. Even though we have had these 5 recent events, only one required very rapid evacuation and even then we don't really know the full story yet.
I have over 10,000 hrs on offshore helis is a career spanning 30 years, as do very many of my colleagues. No-one I can think of has had to make a rapid evacuation due to upturned helicopter. So for the average bear making 1 round trip every 5 weeks, the chances of having to do this is really extremely small. It would of course be a personal decision, but I see no logical reason for someone of the grey and chubby variety to give up offshore work. They are far, far more likely to die from eg a heart attack.
heli wrote:
The fundamental difference is that in the helicopter case, the least agile people would be put nearest the largest exit. That would be equivalent to putting infirm, disabled and large passengers closest to the airliner's emergency exits, to give them a better chance of escape.
What, like the emergency row on an airliner? The one where the passenger has to meet physical attributes and be briefed in order to sit there?
No one complains about that, do they......
No one complains about that, do they......
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Airwave45:
I have enjoyed reading your posts thus far. In general they are a welcomed balance to the forum, and I am pleased to see someone representing the 19 guys down the back actually spend a credible amount of time to-an-fro'ing with the likes of HC, a well respected contributor representing the two drivers up front. Please don't rush off.
My question to you, and the workforce, and those all spouting statistics and likelihood of this that or the other thing versus what the Noggies do on a different or similar type; all protesting that they will never board another Puma: what if it turns out that this accident was the result of pilot error?
Suddenly all the screaming about abandoning the type becomes nothing more than grudge, really. The catalyst of the current protests, and petitions is this most recent incident citing 5 accidents in 4 years and taking it out on the type. If it were pilot error what do you think the industry's response would be? Ground the pilots?
That is not an attack on the response of the offshore workforce, just a parallel application of logic. I'm genuinely curious whether that'd put some egg on faces, or if this might be the beginning of an unstoppable movement - regardless of outcome.
I have enjoyed reading your posts thus far. In general they are a welcomed balance to the forum, and I am pleased to see someone representing the 19 guys down the back actually spend a credible amount of time to-an-fro'ing with the likes of HC, a well respected contributor representing the two drivers up front. Please don't rush off.
My question to you, and the workforce, and those all spouting statistics and likelihood of this that or the other thing versus what the Noggies do on a different or similar type; all protesting that they will never board another Puma: what if it turns out that this accident was the result of pilot error?
Suddenly all the screaming about abandoning the type becomes nothing more than grudge, really. The catalyst of the current protests, and petitions is this most recent incident citing 5 accidents in 4 years and taking it out on the type. If it were pilot error what do you think the industry's response would be? Ground the pilots?
That is not an attack on the response of the offshore workforce, just a parallel application of logic. I'm genuinely curious whether that'd put some egg on faces, or if this might be the beginning of an unstoppable movement - regardless of outcome.
On the other hand, the door is harder to jettison unless you are the one sitting next to the handle.
Ergo, if you are sitting next to the main cabin door, you are reliant on another passenger to operate the emergency jettison.
During my time on the 332L and then as pax going to man an offshore based a/c I noticed that there has always been self selection of where one sat. This was done by arranging one's position in the crocodile going out to the a/c! One favourite seat being the single by the door.
As I type this they haven't found the tail. The 332L didn't have a float bag in the tail - does the 332L2.
HF
As I type this they haven't found the tail. The 332L didn't have a float bag in the tail - does the 332L2.
HF
Obviously, I don't travel in the back very often, but surely you can reach the door jettison handle when you are in the seat row which (on the 225) faces backwards and is in the main door zone, albeit the handle is pretty much above your head and so out normal view?
HF - no, but since there is a sonar pinger on the CVFDR, I am surprised they haven't found it yet. Strange. Does anyone know the range, and effectiveness of direction finding, of such a sonar pinger?
Obviously, I don't travel in the back very often, but surely you can reach the door jettison handle when you are in the seat row which (on the 225) faces backwards and is in the main door zone, albeit the handle is pretty much above your head and so out normal view?
HF - no, but since there is a sonar pinger on the CVFDR, I am surprised they haven't found it yet. Strange. Does anyone know the range, and effectiveness of direction finding, of such a sonar pinger?
Last edited by diginagain; 27th Aug 2013 at 22:55.
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Regarding the comments earlier in this thread pontificating on the quality of the current version of what used to be called the RGIT.
I did the refresher earlier this year at Petrofac and was amazed that for each ditching exercise they actually stopped the descent of the HUET and instructed everyone to "DEPLOY RE-BREATHER" then waited for a thumbs up from everyone onboard before proceeding to dunk us in the water. It would be damn handy if the pilots were able to be this considerate in a real emergency!!
Complete box ticking exercise.
I did the refresher earlier this year at Petrofac and was amazed that for each ditching exercise they actually stopped the descent of the HUET and instructed everyone to "DEPLOY RE-BREATHER" then waited for a thumbs up from everyone onboard before proceeding to dunk us in the water. It would be damn handy if the pilots were able to be this considerate in a real emergency!!
Complete box ticking exercise.
Beacon battery life, once activated, is 30 days. The spec gives a sound pressure level but I have no idea how that translates into range under water, or how easy it is to locate the direction. Not the sort of info a pilot needs to know.
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How much of an uproar would it cause if helicopter passengers were told, 'You're a big guy, so sit by the door. You're a slim guy, so sit by the removable window. You can fit through it easily, and agile enough to do it quickly.'?