AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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When the crew join you in the departure gate everything is wrapped up. Planning was finished long ago, the aircraft started, checks all carried out and rotors running on the hotspot all that is left is to collect the pax.
All of the planning, briefing, and preparing the aircraft is carried out as a crew. You might be under the impression that it is always the captain who briefs you, it is not. Either way the pilot left in the aircraft is more than capable of monitoring the systems whilst the other briefs the pax.
A report time of one hour prior to departure may be the expected minimum, typically you'll find most crews are in before that -nearer an hour and a half- as they are all aware of the variable potential of the schedule; and would prefer to get the planning done and enjoy a cup of tea with the extra time.
This may have all changed since I left, but I don't think it has.
All of the planning, briefing, and preparing the aircraft is carried out as a crew. You might be under the impression that it is always the captain who briefs you, it is not. Either way the pilot left in the aircraft is more than capable of monitoring the systems whilst the other briefs the pax.
A report time of one hour prior to departure may be the expected minimum, typically you'll find most crews are in before that -nearer an hour and a half- as they are all aware of the variable potential of the schedule; and would prefer to get the planning done and enjoy a cup of tea with the extra time.
This may have all changed since I left, but I don't think it has.
airway45. One thing that intrigues me is how do the Norwegian operators ensure that replacement shafts where the oil pump extensions are going to fail are not fitted to Norwegian registered. aircraft.
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Link to photo of position of Bibby Polaris during search for the tail section this afternoon :-
Bibby Polaris & Fitful stack IMG_8227 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
As a new member it seems I can not post attachments so apologies in advance if this is incorrect.
Bibby Polaris & Fitful stack IMG_8227 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
As a new member it seems I can not post attachments so apologies in advance if this is incorrect.
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I really can't see any crew from any company allowing something secondary like briefing pax to affect the way they plan their flights. The plan takes as long as it takes.
A quick single stop Forties with a light load on a gin clear solid coastal day does not take long. A multiple stop, tight fuel, big loads, poor weather, changing diversions etc etc flight takes much longer. If the flight goes late because it has taken a long time to ensure that the plan is absolutely right, so be it.
It's quite insulting to suggest that the crews would allow the conduct of their flights to be compromised that way.
A quick single stop Forties with a light load on a gin clear solid coastal day does not take long. A multiple stop, tight fuel, big loads, poor weather, changing diversions etc etc flight takes much longer. If the flight goes late because it has taken a long time to ensure that the plan is absolutely right, so be it.
It's quite insulting to suggest that the crews would allow the conduct of their flights to be compromised that way.
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Bears - Put on your "big boy" pants - or get out the industry!
Helicopter crash: workers told to put 'big boy pants' on after expressing safety fears - Telegraph
Offshore oil workers who expressed concerns about flying were told to put on their “big boy pants” or give up working in the industry days before a helicopter left their platform and crashed with the loss of four lives.
The blunt advice was given to workers on the Borgsten Dolphin rig on August 8 during a briefing that was meant to reassure them about the safety of the Super Puma EC225 aircraft, which was allowed to return to service two weeks ago. The briefing was delivered by officials from the oil firm Total and the helicopter operator CHC, whose aircraft crashed last week.
A recording of the event, featuring CHC’s chief pilot Will Hanekom, and managers from Total, including the head of logistics Christophe Barber, reveals that one worker asked what the oil company would do if workers refused to board an aircraft.
According to the Press and Journal newspaper, a CHC representative said: "I have to say, how else are we going to get there? It is what we do. At some point we have to put our big boy pants on and say either 'we believe', either what I am telling you is the truth and I'm willing to sit in the front and risk my family and everything that I have got. If you don't, well, I wouldn't force any of my pilots to fly if they didn't want to."
During the same conversation an official from Total told workers: "I am hoping we won't get there. I hope we get to the point where we have information so you say, 'I understand there was a problem. But I understand that the gearbox is now safe'."
The worker said: "Every man I have spoken to says they don't want to get on one."
The blunt advice was given to workers on the Borgsten Dolphin rig on August 8 during a briefing that was meant to reassure them about the safety of the Super Puma EC225 aircraft, which was allowed to return to service two weeks ago. The briefing was delivered by officials from the oil firm Total and the helicopter operator CHC, whose aircraft crashed last week.
A recording of the event, featuring CHC’s chief pilot Will Hanekom, and managers from Total, including the head of logistics Christophe Barber, reveals that one worker asked what the oil company would do if workers refused to board an aircraft.
According to the Press and Journal newspaper, a CHC representative said: "I have to say, how else are we going to get there? It is what we do. At some point we have to put our big boy pants on and say either 'we believe', either what I am telling you is the truth and I'm willing to sit in the front and risk my family and everything that I have got. If you don't, well, I wouldn't force any of my pilots to fly if they didn't want to."
During the same conversation an official from Total told workers: "I am hoping we won't get there. I hope we get to the point where we have information so you say, 'I understand there was a problem. But I understand that the gearbox is now safe'."
The worker said: "Every man I have spoken to says they don't want to get on one."
OOPS!
Sometimes you just wish you could take back something you said...which when looked at later in a different light sure could have been said better and differently.
We know what he meant....and it was not as it sounds now but oh...my!
Sometimes you just wish you could take back something you said...which when looked at later in a different light sure could have been said better and differently.
We know what he meant....and it was not as it sounds now but oh...my!
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This is very much the problem when pilots are asked to give an opinion like this. We are not risk takers but by the very nature of the job, we are risk acceptors i.e we know that there is always risk associated with aviation and a little more so in the offshore world even in the best maintained, best operated helicopter. If we aren't comfortable with the extra risk, we would never fly and we wouldn't be able to do our job properly. For some of our passengers, it is difficult to accept this risk and I have every sympathy with them, there isn't one of us who have not had a little dark thought during the quiet moments of the cruise. However, we have to put these thoughts stirred up by our inner chimp, aside. For our passengers and us, there is a choice. We are all volunteers, there are no press gangs on the streets of Aberdeen and if your inner chimp starts to take control with dark thoughts, then maybe you need to take a deep look at your life and ask the question, what the hell am I doing here? We all have bills, mortgages etc. but there is always another way.
I have every sympathy for the pilot who uttered these words and we all know what he said is right. You can jump in a S92/139/155 tomorrow and the risk is the same. The fortunes of timing we cannot control and I don't suppose he feels particularly great at the moment but please don't persecute an aviator who was just telling the truth.
I have every sympathy for the pilot who uttered these words and we all know what he said is right. You can jump in a S92/139/155 tomorrow and the risk is the same. The fortunes of timing we cannot control and I don't suppose he feels particularly great at the moment but please don't persecute an aviator who was just telling the truth.
there isn't one of us who have not had a little dark thought during the quiet moments of the cruise.
When things are busy....weather is bad....winds holding you back....fuel reserve getting lower....no problem.....but pretty day...George driving...lunch done....music tuned on the ADF....and UH OH! Counting your money sitting at the table is a bad move!
It just proves all Helicopter Pilots are Pessimists.
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Yes those statistics look bad, but statistics can be adjusted to suit an individuals leanings. The Puma family has been around for more than 45 years, I first flew them more than 35 years ago.
I don't have them, but if you look at the statistics of Puma family on the NS over this period you will find the ratio of years/accidents very low.
The result is dependent on the time scale short period, not good - long period, very good.
However I do understand where you are coming from, but for those who flew in the Puma before these recent incidents would only be complaining of discomfort.
I don't have them, but if you look at the statistics of Puma family on the NS over this period you will find the ratio of years/accidents very low.
The result is dependent on the time scale short period, not good - long period, very good.
However I do understand where you are coming from, but for those who flew in the Puma before these recent incidents would only be complaining of discomfort.
I have had the same feeling sitting in the Business Class section of a not B-747 over the middle of the North Atlantic in Winter....looking down at the mostly white cap covered Ocean...knowing how big the waves were...how cold the water was...and how far from help we were.....thinking about the ETOPs concept that put us there in an Airplane with exactly two engines....is this trip really necessary!
A couple of double whisky's later....all was fine!
A couple of double whisky's later....all was fine!
Last edited by SASless; 27th Aug 2013 at 18:20.
...looking down at the mostly white cap covered Ocean...knowing how big the waves were...how cold the water was........is this trip really necessary!
A couple of double whisky's later....all was fine!
A couple of double whisky's later....all was fine!
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Whilst enjoying a nice relaxing beer today at a beer garden, I overheard a few 'bears' sitting next to me that they we not prepared to fly the super puma family again...one of their main topics was alternate transportation ideas to and from the rigs.
After hearing some interesting (kind of) ideas (a-hum) , I'd come to the conclusion that what Aberdeen harbour needs is a pedalo hire place, ideal for transportation/exercise/rig hopping/socialising to and from the rigs.
One could hire all sort of pedalo's , old ones, new ones, big ones, small ones, ones with slides, multi crew ones, ones with blow up palm trees, ones shaped like an animal.
The choice could be endless!! Or what about the banana boat..?
After hearing some interesting (kind of) ideas (a-hum) , I'd come to the conclusion that what Aberdeen harbour needs is a pedalo hire place, ideal for transportation/exercise/rig hopping/socialising to and from the rigs.
One could hire all sort of pedalo's , old ones, new ones, big ones, small ones, ones with slides, multi crew ones, ones with blow up palm trees, ones shaped like an animal.
The choice could be endless!! Or what about the banana boat..?
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airway45. One thing that intrigues me is how do the Norwegian operators ensure that replacement shafts where the oil pump extensions are going to fail are not fitted to Norwegian registered. aircraft.
Me, my buddies and the fuel make auw.
What I do know is that there has not been one Norwegian on here giving me a hard time.
Went out for a meal, come back and the conversation has drifted back onto "how well we do things"
And you do. . . . . . Sort of.
The briefings thing.
Imho best if you don't do that.
Along with the epauletes, a bit of mystique makes for a normal pax's confidence in the system.
As a group, you are somewhat predisposed to telling each other how well you do things. Which has it's place.
Probably indicative that you are feeling "got at".
Does a bunch of pilots standing in a circle patting each other on the back about how good they are make me want to get into a Scottish maintanied and run helicopter, erm, no.
Given that a "peaceful protest" is being organised outside the otc gig next month, do I feel the situation will get better soon.
No.
Not one single comment in the last day has indicated to me that any current p1/p2 is doing or organising a sytematic approach to the systemic failures apparent in the Scotish operation.
Now, does anyone have a number to buy stocks in the walk to work systems . .
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BALPA | STATEMENT ON THE NORTH SEA L2 INCIDENT
human error then?
human error then?
BALPA members wish to extend their deepest sympathies to the families of those who have lost their lives in the recent helicopter accident, as well as to the survivors who have undergone such a traumatic experience. BALPA members understand only too well the concerns of passengers about safety and wish to reassure them that pilots will not operate if the statutory authorities advise against or if individual crews believe, for whatever reason, it is unsafe so to do.
Pending release of the Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB) report we believe, based on experience in the field of accident investigation, that it is a mistake to draw early conclusions which often prove wide of the mark. And, to be clear, the recent suspension of operations was not based on an AAIB recommendation or proven safety concerns but was an understandable response by the companies which charter the operations and if that approach continues then BALPA will support it.
In the meantime BALPA wishes to confirm that the confidence of its members in the Super Puma family of aircraft remains unchanged. Indeed the aircraft continues to operate commercial air transport flights throughout the rest of the world including the Norwegian sector of the North Sea. We should not rush to judge an aircraft which has 3 very different variants and has successfully transported millions of passengers worldwide in safety over 30 years of operation.
However once the recommendations of the AAIB accident report into last Friday’s accident have been published, BALPA believes there is a need to take a step back and, as well as reviewing each of the 5 individual accident investigations, to consider as a whole what can be done to improve the safety of both the offshore workforce (our passengers) and BALPA members who share the same risks, but on a daily basis. Such an investigation might usefully take a comparative view on the approaches of our Norwegian colleagues who do things in the same geographic operating area yet with an apparently better safety record.
Pending release of the Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB) report we believe, based on experience in the field of accident investigation, that it is a mistake to draw early conclusions which often prove wide of the mark. And, to be clear, the recent suspension of operations was not based on an AAIB recommendation or proven safety concerns but was an understandable response by the companies which charter the operations and if that approach continues then BALPA will support it.
In the meantime BALPA wishes to confirm that the confidence of its members in the Super Puma family of aircraft remains unchanged. Indeed the aircraft continues to operate commercial air transport flights throughout the rest of the world including the Norwegian sector of the North Sea. We should not rush to judge an aircraft which has 3 very different variants and has successfully transported millions of passengers worldwide in safety over 30 years of operation.
However once the recommendations of the AAIB accident report into last Friday’s accident have been published, BALPA believes there is a need to take a step back and, as well as reviewing each of the 5 individual accident investigations, to consider as a whole what can be done to improve the safety of both the offshore workforce (our passengers) and BALPA members who share the same risks, but on a daily basis. Such an investigation might usefully take a comparative view on the approaches of our Norwegian colleagues who do things in the same geographic operating area yet with an apparently better safety record.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 27th Aug 2013 at 20:45. Reason: Add quote
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The BALPA statement has just come out, with a lot of references to Norwegian operations (which were heavily discussed on this thread over the weekend and even yesterday) but I suppose that's just coincidence.
I truly wonder what the cause of this tragic accident was.
I truly wonder what the cause of this tragic accident was.
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My problem with being an airline passenger is I have absolutely no control over the flight.... being pilot in charge of my car, in statistically greater danger on country roads, I have every confidence in the driver! Why would any sane person ride a motorcycle? So much for statistical analysis of risk informing reasonable choice of transport.
It was always interesting and involving to listen into cockpit RT on some airlines. At least you knew what was going on. Could this be possible on a heli? The more one understands what is actually happening, usually the better one can put away irrational fear and become involved with the flight.
One other question; do the NS oil rig workers get paid for travel time? If the journey took 12 hours on a boat, relative to 2 hours by Super Puma, perhaps a financial incentive might overcome reluctance to board the chopper.
It was always interesting and involving to listen into cockpit RT on some airlines. At least you knew what was going on. Could this be possible on a heli? The more one understands what is actually happening, usually the better one can put away irrational fear and become involved with the flight.
One other question; do the NS oil rig workers get paid for travel time? If the journey took 12 hours on a boat, relative to 2 hours by Super Puma, perhaps a financial incentive might overcome reluctance to board the chopper.