AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
... given the choice, where would you sit? I've not flown in an EC225, but I would guess that the door, being larger, is the preferred option as an escape route?
Nice big windows all the way along in the EC225 seems far better. More options and less chance of somebody plugging one. If somebody gets the doors off, even better.
What do people think about the exit layout and size on the S-92?
What do people think about the exit layout and size on the S-92?
My preferred seat in AS332- or EC225? Row 1, or centre seat Row 2.
Last edited by diginagain; 27th Aug 2013 at 23:20.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No chance Nick with the door jett handles they are really blocked and you cant get to them if the seat is fitted in reverse.
HC Dukane DK 100 was 38 KHz and about 30 Nm range for a hand held hydro-phone. Smaller beacon now.
Sorry N, not an expert in sonar but it will suffer the same problems as radar, false reflections. we used to call it bounce.
Close to rocks etc.
The 92 windows in the middle cabin are VERY tight
Not easy to get a passive sonar boat into Sumb head. I know you worked that out.
HC Dukane DK 100 was 38 KHz and about 30 Nm range for a hand held hydro-phone. Smaller beacon now.
Sorry N, not an expert in sonar but it will suffer the same problems as radar, false reflections. we used to call it bounce.
Close to rocks etc.
The 92 windows in the middle cabin are VERY tight
Not easy to get a passive sonar boat into Sumb head. I know you worked that out.
I like that Idea of Pedalo's.....If those that decide to refuse to fly in a particular aircraft are then offered several alternative modes of transport then perhaps they could find one that suits their needs and desires.
Now granted, the one Pedalo offers up might find it hard going to keep revenues up in the Winter but in Summer....it would be a far more invigorating ride to and from.....why the Hols could begin immediately upon departing the Rig/Platform.
I do believe he is on to something here.
As I have called for a Shields down review....I would call everyone's attention to his submission as being fresh thinking, innovative, and welcome. On the other hand it does need some Staffing Work before we could do an official test of the concept.
As my Norwegian is about as fluent as my Swahili.....can someone help me out with these Tables.
http://www.luftfartstilsynet.no/flys...A_offshore.htm
How does that compare to the UK data?
Now granted, the one Pedalo offers up might find it hard going to keep revenues up in the Winter but in Summer....it would be a far more invigorating ride to and from.....why the Hols could begin immediately upon departing the Rig/Platform.
I do believe he is on to something here.
As I have called for a Shields down review....I would call everyone's attention to his submission as being fresh thinking, innovative, and welcome. On the other hand it does need some Staffing Work before we could do an official test of the concept.
As my Norwegian is about as fluent as my Swahili.....can someone help me out with these Tables.
http://www.luftfartstilsynet.no/flys...A_offshore.htm
How does that compare to the UK data?
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2013 at 00:49.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: North of the circle
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@SASless
The top stats, are accidents and activity.
RED color is: Accidents without fatalities.
Black color is: Fatal accidents.
Green color is: flight hours.
Bottom stats, are accident rates.
And the green dots are accidents per 100.000 hours
Blue line is 3 year rates/periods.
Info.is for norwegian aircraft only it says in the bottom.
I am assuming that the danish and dutch north sea statistics look somewhat like the norwegians?
The top stats, are accidents and activity.
RED color is: Accidents without fatalities.
Black color is: Fatal accidents.
Green color is: flight hours.
Bottom stats, are accident rates.
And the green dots are accidents per 100.000 hours
Blue line is 3 year rates/periods.
Info.is for norwegian aircraft only it says in the bottom.
I am assuming that the danish and dutch north sea statistics look somewhat like the norwegians?
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could we put a few things to bed here now? The Puma family is safe as can be, I am type rated by EASA 330 thru 225LP all version. I also hold type rating for all the other types used in oil and gas support in the North Sea. We have seen Maintenance, Operational and Passenger training issueses that the authority has fail to to deal with. Lets look at the tick box management we endure now rather than the 30 year old over 41000 hours service puma that has never put any one at risk.
Last edited by OMONEZ; 28th Aug 2013 at 00:31.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems strange to me that nothing has been released yet. I would have thought that two experienced pilots would have been better witnesses to the actual occurrence than a CVFDR. There must be some difficult negotiations going on between the OEM and the operator on how best to save the plummeting reputation of the Puma family.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: West coast Australia :)
Posts: 238
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought that two experienced pilots would have been better witnesses to the actual occurrence than a CVFDR
Just my 2 cents
Si
During periods of extreme stress...human memory can be a poor tool when looking back at a sequence of events as one focuses upon the most immediate issues of concern while missing most of what else is going on at the time.
Nothing unusual about that at all.
As good as the Pilot accounts shall be....they do not necessarily tell the whole and entire truth of the event. Not that they are being intentionally deceitful....not at all....just that they were deluged with inputs, sounds, lights, physical forces, and as is common in very serious emergency situations....took actions that were a result of training and experience that they may not even recall having done.
The CVR and Data Recorder does not suffer from those Human weaknesses....the wee digital memory they use retains everything without any emotion or psychological constraints. They too have their weaknesses but when combined with all of the evidence the AAIB shall discover.....the Truth of this tragedy will very likely be found.
The CVR and Data Recorder are crucial to a successful investigation as they do hold an incredible amount of information that is so useful to the investigators.
An example.....during Simulator Training I used to videotape every single Sim Session. Sometimes I would take the Trainees down to the classroom...get them Coffee....turn the Video of the Previous Session on for them to view while drinking their Coffee.....and when i returned....you could see a much changed demeanor in them as they got to watch their own performance....or lack of in the Sim earlier.
It was not unusual for them to admit they were no aware of some of the things they saw in the video.
Nothing unusual about that at all.
As good as the Pilot accounts shall be....they do not necessarily tell the whole and entire truth of the event. Not that they are being intentionally deceitful....not at all....just that they were deluged with inputs, sounds, lights, physical forces, and as is common in very serious emergency situations....took actions that were a result of training and experience that they may not even recall having done.
The CVR and Data Recorder does not suffer from those Human weaknesses....the wee digital memory they use retains everything without any emotion or psychological constraints. They too have their weaknesses but when combined with all of the evidence the AAIB shall discover.....the Truth of this tragedy will very likely be found.
The CVR and Data Recorder are crucial to a successful investigation as they do hold an incredible amount of information that is so useful to the investigators.
An example.....during Simulator Training I used to videotape every single Sim Session. Sometimes I would take the Trainees down to the classroom...get them Coffee....turn the Video of the Previous Session on for them to view while drinking their Coffee.....and when i returned....you could see a much changed demeanor in them as they got to watch their own performance....or lack of in the Sim earlier.
It was not unusual for them to admit they were no aware of some of the things they saw in the video.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: West coast Australia :)
Posts: 238
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no beef, but SASless has put the point far more eloquently than me 
. My point was simply use all the information available for a balanced evaluation, not just human recollection.
Si
. My point was simply use all the information available for a balanced evaluation, not just human recollection.Si
Last edited by bigglesbutler; 28th Aug 2013 at 01:27.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only problem is that the two potential failure modes you use as examples would not be positively be picked up by a FDR. The best proof for this scenario would be a crew member reporting a severe vibration.
I think my question about the "militancy" of the Offshore Workers just got answered.....a small number of the workers seems to be making most of the noise and evidently are out of step with their fellows.
Also....I see BALPA is calling for a broad scale review of North Sea Operations.
This is good news in my view.
North Sea oil workers drop protest as hunt for Super Puma 'black box' goes on | World news | The Guardian
Also....I see BALPA is calling for a broad scale review of North Sea Operations.
This is good news in my view.
North Sea oil workers drop protest as hunt for Super Puma 'black box' goes on | World news | The Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: West coast Australia :)
Posts: 238
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You allways were happy when I said good to go.
, that's why I am happy who I work for. Having been in an uncomfortable position myself I was only sticking up for the affected crew as they will be very stressed themselves till this is fully investigated by the AAIB. As such people start to doubt what they saw and heard due to the stress of the whole incident so the CVFDR is vital to get the whole picture. It's nothing malicious just human nature when under stress
.Si
Last edited by bigglesbutler; 28th Aug 2013 at 02:07.
This is an “us and them” situation. Why?
The aviation professionals (and in this topic I refer to the pilots - mainly) and the oil company professionals who fly with them are both in the same boat. So why don’t we see the same groundswell of opinion among the flyers? Because, of course, most pilots have, throughout their careers done their own assessment, accept there is an inherent risk in their profession and therefore strive, via training, experience and discussion to minimize that risk as much as possible. And in general they succeed, though I would suggest that most of them who have been flying for more than a few years personally knew someone in their profession who was killed or injured in an aviation related accident. So, that’s a fact – and it’s their choice.
Their passengers on the other hand generally have no such choice, other than to change their profession- and there’s the rub. So perhaps their employers should offer a choice, boat transfer or air transfer – up to you. Of course, this would play havoc with rostering, but it could be done.
The oil companies could also do more. Most either have their own aviation auditors or hire them. I don’t suggest these audits are mere ticks in boxes (though some are), but generally they follow a certain pattern – conducted usually once a year checking management, training, experience, engineering and line flying. But there is no day to day involvement and perhaps there should be; possibly in the form of one of their own crew seconded to the helicopter operator for the duration of the contract. I don’t for one moment suggest this would improve standards, on the N Sea they are already very high, but it would be a useful link between passengers, management on both sides and flyers.
But the bottom line is that by its very nature, helicopter flying and offshore oil support has its risks and no matter how high the professional standard, these will from time to time result in incidents – and these incidents, despite the hysteria regarding the current location, will be random.
The aviation professionals (and in this topic I refer to the pilots - mainly) and the oil company professionals who fly with them are both in the same boat. So why don’t we see the same groundswell of opinion among the flyers? Because, of course, most pilots have, throughout their careers done their own assessment, accept there is an inherent risk in their profession and therefore strive, via training, experience and discussion to minimize that risk as much as possible. And in general they succeed, though I would suggest that most of them who have been flying for more than a few years personally knew someone in their profession who was killed or injured in an aviation related accident. So, that’s a fact – and it’s their choice.
Their passengers on the other hand generally have no such choice, other than to change their profession- and there’s the rub. So perhaps their employers should offer a choice, boat transfer or air transfer – up to you. Of course, this would play havoc with rostering, but it could be done.
The oil companies could also do more. Most either have their own aviation auditors or hire them. I don’t suggest these audits are mere ticks in boxes (though some are), but generally they follow a certain pattern – conducted usually once a year checking management, training, experience, engineering and line flying. But there is no day to day involvement and perhaps there should be; possibly in the form of one of their own crew seconded to the helicopter operator for the duration of the contract. I don’t for one moment suggest this would improve standards, on the N Sea they are already very high, but it would be a useful link between passengers, management on both sides and flyers.
But the bottom line is that by its very nature, helicopter flying and offshore oil support has its risks and no matter how high the professional standard, these will from time to time result in incidents – and these incidents, despite the hysteria regarding the current location, will be random.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAS. Just read your last post again, only human saw what I wanted to see. Sorry!
The helicopter is safe. Its the structure of the companies and worst the lower managment bonus culture.
As much as I like MB. That will be the same person who though the b--d crew did well with the 225 ditching. CFIT(W) No control at that rate of decent. Crash!
Airwave.
There seems to be a little level head in your last post. I havent read it all but this is the point to start working together.
We have lost the core of knowledge in our section of the North Sea now, so much is ticks in the box. You can help to change that.
Airwave!
Ok,
To be clear, you won't find any of my posts having a go at a specific aircraft.
They are in a thread about one particular incident, but tragic as the loss of life and aircraft is, this specific incident really is not what I'm posting for.
Bollocks
The helicopter is safe. Its the structure of the companies and worst the lower managment bonus culture.
As much as I like MB. That will be the same person who though the b--d crew did well with the 225 ditching. CFIT(W) No control at that rate of decent. Crash!
Airwave.
There seems to be a little level head in your last post. I havent read it all but this is the point to start working together.
We have lost the core of knowledge in our section of the North Sea now, so much is ticks in the box. You can help to change that.
Airwave!
Ok,
To be clear, you won't find any of my posts having a go at a specific aircraft.
They are in a thread about one particular incident, but tragic as the loss of life and aircraft is, this specific incident really is not what I'm posting for.
Bollocks
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 28th Aug 2013 at 06:55. Reason: Merge a lot of one line posts