Millionaire helicopter pilots to ferry emergency services...
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Ok, it looks like we've reached an impasse here. I'm guessing that unless an external body (CAA, FBU...) stop the trial, it will go ahead as planned in March (?) this year. With that in mind, how about a few pointers from those of us who do this sort of thing for a living to make the scene and the airspace above it as safe as we can?
I'll kick off with:
Approaching scene - We have an air desk that liaises with ARCCK, HMCG and the local police ASU. They give us a heads up if other assets are expected on scene. If the fire service are unable to do this for you, blind calls on 123.1 may be worthwhile.
Landing Site Selection - Consider any other aircraft that may be arriving on-scene after you. It'll make sense to drop the fire teams at the site closest to the incident with the best access but if you can then relocate to free the spot for HEMS or SAR then we would be grateful.
Roads - Remember that both carriageways must be shut prior to landing; not just the one you are approaching. The rules state that it must be closed by either the police or highways agency and that you must be able to confirm the closure. If you don't have a TETRA fit in the aircraft, the fire service should be able to relay this info to you from scene although it may take a little longer. The process at rural, remote roads is a little more relaxed but of course comes down to the commanders judgement once overhead scene.
If any / all of this is obvious and I'm teaching granny to suck eggs then great, no harm done, but please take it in the spirit that its meant. The incidents that JP will be attending are our office and we want that office to be safe and run smoothly.
Anyone else got anything?
Cheers,
135
I'll kick off with:
Approaching scene - We have an air desk that liaises with ARCCK, HMCG and the local police ASU. They give us a heads up if other assets are expected on scene. If the fire service are unable to do this for you, blind calls on 123.1 may be worthwhile.
Landing Site Selection - Consider any other aircraft that may be arriving on-scene after you. It'll make sense to drop the fire teams at the site closest to the incident with the best access but if you can then relocate to free the spot for HEMS or SAR then we would be grateful.
Roads - Remember that both carriageways must be shut prior to landing; not just the one you are approaching. The rules state that it must be closed by either the police or highways agency and that you must be able to confirm the closure. If you don't have a TETRA fit in the aircraft, the fire service should be able to relay this info to you from scene although it may take a little longer. The process at rural, remote roads is a little more relaxed but of course comes down to the commanders judgement once overhead scene.
If any / all of this is obvious and I'm teaching granny to suck eggs then great, no harm done, but please take it in the spirit that its meant. The incidents that JP will be attending are our office and we want that office to be safe and run smoothly.
Anyone else got anything?
Cheers,
135
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Just wondering, can anyone confirm if the trial days of operation are going to be based from Caversham or Lower Mill?
Don't want to go booking a holiday for a natural, relaxing, luxurious, ultimate holiday escape, in an area of outstanding natural beauty with a frickin' helicopter making lots of noise at all times of the day!
Any links to which International Waterski Championships JP won?
Don't want to go booking a holiday for a natural, relaxing, luxurious, ultimate holiday escape, in an area of outstanding natural beauty with a frickin' helicopter making lots of noise at all times of the day!
Any links to which International Waterski Championships JP won?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
135;
Well, that sounds simple and straight forward enough, although there can be a littler bit more to take into consideration before landing on roads;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap612.pdf
Chapter 10 Guidelines for Landing of Helicopters on Roads
1 Introduction
1.1 Whilst the safety of a helicopter and its passengers remains the responsibility of the Pilot In Command (PIC) the police have overall responsibility for scene management at all land-based incidents and on roads particularly in respect of the control and safety of all road users.
1.2 The aim of these guidelines is to permit helicopter-borne emergency services to fulfil their function with due regard to maintaining a realistic balance of safety.
2 Definitions
a) Roads
A road is a highway (including motorways and dual carriageways) and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes.
b) Secure
An area where entry by vehicles and persons is prevented and in which the pilot can land safely at his discretion.
c) Congested Areas
In relation to a city, town or settlement, means any area which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes.
3 Guidelines
3.1 Helicopters will not land on a road unless the following requirements can be complied with:
a) Whenever possible the helicopter shall first land adjacent to the road.
b) Where a landing is made on a road it must first be secured by the police (the only exceptions to this are listed in paragraph 3.1 f)).
c) Prior to landing on the road, radio or verbal communication must have taken place with the police (via the other emergency services, Rescue Co-ordination Centres (RCC) or ATC, where necessary) to confirm the road is secure and the pilot has authority to exercise his discretion to land.
d) Minimum amount of time shall be spent on the road by the helicopter sufficient to fulfil its emergency function. If required to shut down, consideration should be given to subsequent failure to start.
e) On a motorway, dual carriageway or two-way road, when the helicopter is landing and taking off, the unaffected carriageway should be closed at all times.
f) A helicopter may only land on a road at an unsecured site where the police are not in attendance when all the following criteria are met:
i) The road shall be in remote rural areas outside congested areas;
ii) There shall be no threat to persons or vehicles on the ground from the
helicopter or its associated presence;
iii) The pilot must satisfy himself that there is no danger to the aircraft from
persons or vehicles on the road;
iv) Only in very exceptional circumstances will this apply to motorways and dual carriageways and then only where criteria set out at Appendix A can be fully complied with;
v) This action may be exercised only when no alternative is available;
vi) Pilots should avoid landing in school or other play grounds or areas where children might be confined or suddenly emerge. The practice of using the aircraft presence or public address system to clear children from a site should not be utilised. Pilots should find an alternative site.
4 Additional Considerations
4.1 Preservation of Evidence
Police officers at the scene and pilots of helicopters must be aware of the effect of rotor downwash on loose articles and debris. This is of particular importance where such articles are crucial evidence and may require further scientific or forensic examination. The preservation of such evidence either in situ or following removal to a safe location must be taken into consideration by police officers at the scene before an aircraft lands.
4.2 Noise Levels
Police officers and other emergency service personnel must be aware that
helicopters generate substantial noise, particularly during landing and take-off and that verbal communication (either personal or radio) may well be affected.
4.3 Danger from Glass
Pilots and emergency service personnel are reminded of the danger of rotor
downwash dislodging broken glass and other loose debris, particularly from damaged buildings, at bomb scene incidents.
4.4 Emergency Service Vehicles
Police officers in charge at a scene should be mindful that Emergency Service
vehicles need to position in close proximity to the incident, particularly the Fire and Ambulance Services, and to be aware that hoses and ancillary equipment (including lighting) could well be affected by rotor downwash. Access to the scene should therefore not be obstructed by the helicopter.
4.5 The CAA will set the requirements for recording landings made by civil aircraft on roads.
5 General Safety
5.1 Emergency Service personnel must be made aware of the dangers of working with helicopters. This should include:
a) rotor downwash and associated flying debris;
b) main and tail rotor blades;
c) hot exhausts and jet efflux;
d) noise; and
e) effects of sloping ground.
Supplement to Chapter 10
Landing at a Site on a Dual Carriageway or Motorway Which has not Been Secured
Guidance to Pilots
A landing shall only be made on a dual carriageway or motorway during daylight hours when all the following criteria can be met. No landing shall ever be made by night.
a) The helicopter shall only remain on the ground for the minimum time needed to disembark passengers and then go airborne again, until the site is secure. The aircraft shall not be shut down or loiter on the ground.
b) The carriageway is blocked and all traffic on the affected carriageway is stopped and unable to proceed along the carriageway or on a normal road.
c) Any reduction of visibility at ground level, due to mist, precipitation, spray, smoke or other effects shall be taken into account to ensure the helicopter can see and be seen in order to avoid any risk of collision with persons, vehicles or structures.
d) The chosen site must be such as to ensure that the effects of rotor downwash do not blow around even light debris at the scene. This should include grit, spilt fuel and large masses of dust or sand. Pilots shall be given minimum distance from a scene which will prevent such disturbance which must allow for the effects of wind and reasonable margins for error in distance judgement.
e) Great caution should be taken during approach, landing and take-off, to monitor the road and its surrounds to ensure previously unseen hazards do not suddenly appear which may create a danger to themselves in the aircraft.
f) Whilst this is not a comprehensive list, it identifies areas which, if addressed, will minimise risk. It may be expanded under locally agreed procedures developed by the emergency services and set out in the operator's Flight Operations Manual. This list of criteria must not be reduced.
g) The pilot must ensure that all reasonable efforts are made to inform the police control room of his intention to land at an unsecured site. This may be done through his own operational controlling agency. Unless locally required, no approval is required to carry out the landing.
I see the good intent of your post 135, but after Bryn's editorial, what makes you think 'they' will start listening to 'us' now?
'A few pointers' that sounds very similar to 'a little knowledge is dangerous'!
However, I'm sure all the relevant issues have been discussed between JP, The Fire & Rescue Services and the CAA, with all relevant exemptions sought.
With that in mind, how about a few pointers from those of us who do this sort of thing for a living to make the scene and the airspace above it as safe as we can?
I'll kick off with:
.
.
Roads - Remember that both carriageways must be shut prior to landing; not just the one you are approaching. The rules state that it must be closed by either the police or highways agency and that you must be able to confirm the closure. If you don't have a TETRA fit in the aircraft, the fire service should be able to relay this info to you from scene although it may take a little longer. The process at rural, remote roads is a little more relaxed but of course comes down to the commanders judgement once overhead scene.
I'll kick off with:
.
.
Roads - Remember that both carriageways must be shut prior to landing; not just the one you are approaching. The rules state that it must be closed by either the police or highways agency and that you must be able to confirm the closure. If you don't have a TETRA fit in the aircraft, the fire service should be able to relay this info to you from scene although it may take a little longer. The process at rural, remote roads is a little more relaxed but of course comes down to the commanders judgement once overhead scene.
Well, that sounds simple and straight forward enough, although there can be a littler bit more to take into consideration before landing on roads;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap612.pdf
Chapter 10 Guidelines for Landing of Helicopters on Roads
1 Introduction
1.1 Whilst the safety of a helicopter and its passengers remains the responsibility of the Pilot In Command (PIC) the police have overall responsibility for scene management at all land-based incidents and on roads particularly in respect of the control and safety of all road users.
1.2 The aim of these guidelines is to permit helicopter-borne emergency services to fulfil their function with due regard to maintaining a realistic balance of safety.
2 Definitions
a) Roads
A road is a highway (including motorways and dual carriageways) and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes.
b) Secure
An area where entry by vehicles and persons is prevented and in which the pilot can land safely at his discretion.
c) Congested Areas
In relation to a city, town or settlement, means any area which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes.
3 Guidelines
3.1 Helicopters will not land on a road unless the following requirements can be complied with:
a) Whenever possible the helicopter shall first land adjacent to the road.
b) Where a landing is made on a road it must first be secured by the police (the only exceptions to this are listed in paragraph 3.1 f)).
c) Prior to landing on the road, radio or verbal communication must have taken place with the police (via the other emergency services, Rescue Co-ordination Centres (RCC) or ATC, where necessary) to confirm the road is secure and the pilot has authority to exercise his discretion to land.
d) Minimum amount of time shall be spent on the road by the helicopter sufficient to fulfil its emergency function. If required to shut down, consideration should be given to subsequent failure to start.
e) On a motorway, dual carriageway or two-way road, when the helicopter is landing and taking off, the unaffected carriageway should be closed at all times.
f) A helicopter may only land on a road at an unsecured site where the police are not in attendance when all the following criteria are met:
i) The road shall be in remote rural areas outside congested areas;
ii) There shall be no threat to persons or vehicles on the ground from the
helicopter or its associated presence;
iii) The pilot must satisfy himself that there is no danger to the aircraft from
persons or vehicles on the road;
iv) Only in very exceptional circumstances will this apply to motorways and dual carriageways and then only where criteria set out at Appendix A can be fully complied with;
v) This action may be exercised only when no alternative is available;
vi) Pilots should avoid landing in school or other play grounds or areas where children might be confined or suddenly emerge. The practice of using the aircraft presence or public address system to clear children from a site should not be utilised. Pilots should find an alternative site.
4 Additional Considerations
4.1 Preservation of Evidence
Police officers at the scene and pilots of helicopters must be aware of the effect of rotor downwash on loose articles and debris. This is of particular importance where such articles are crucial evidence and may require further scientific or forensic examination. The preservation of such evidence either in situ or following removal to a safe location must be taken into consideration by police officers at the scene before an aircraft lands.
4.2 Noise Levels
Police officers and other emergency service personnel must be aware that
helicopters generate substantial noise, particularly during landing and take-off and that verbal communication (either personal or radio) may well be affected.
4.3 Danger from Glass
Pilots and emergency service personnel are reminded of the danger of rotor
downwash dislodging broken glass and other loose debris, particularly from damaged buildings, at bomb scene incidents.
4.4 Emergency Service Vehicles
Police officers in charge at a scene should be mindful that Emergency Service
vehicles need to position in close proximity to the incident, particularly the Fire and Ambulance Services, and to be aware that hoses and ancillary equipment (including lighting) could well be affected by rotor downwash. Access to the scene should therefore not be obstructed by the helicopter.
4.5 The CAA will set the requirements for recording landings made by civil aircraft on roads.
5 General Safety
5.1 Emergency Service personnel must be made aware of the dangers of working with helicopters. This should include:
a) rotor downwash and associated flying debris;
b) main and tail rotor blades;
c) hot exhausts and jet efflux;
d) noise; and
e) effects of sloping ground.
Supplement to Chapter 10
Landing at a Site on a Dual Carriageway or Motorway Which has not Been Secured
Guidance to Pilots
A landing shall only be made on a dual carriageway or motorway during daylight hours when all the following criteria can be met. No landing shall ever be made by night.
a) The helicopter shall only remain on the ground for the minimum time needed to disembark passengers and then go airborne again, until the site is secure. The aircraft shall not be shut down or loiter on the ground.
b) The carriageway is blocked and all traffic on the affected carriageway is stopped and unable to proceed along the carriageway or on a normal road.
c) Any reduction of visibility at ground level, due to mist, precipitation, spray, smoke or other effects shall be taken into account to ensure the helicopter can see and be seen in order to avoid any risk of collision with persons, vehicles or structures.
d) The chosen site must be such as to ensure that the effects of rotor downwash do not blow around even light debris at the scene. This should include grit, spilt fuel and large masses of dust or sand. Pilots shall be given minimum distance from a scene which will prevent such disturbance which must allow for the effects of wind and reasonable margins for error in distance judgement.
e) Great caution should be taken during approach, landing and take-off, to monitor the road and its surrounds to ensure previously unseen hazards do not suddenly appear which may create a danger to themselves in the aircraft.
f) Whilst this is not a comprehensive list, it identifies areas which, if addressed, will minimise risk. It may be expanded under locally agreed procedures developed by the emergency services and set out in the operator's Flight Operations Manual. This list of criteria must not be reduced.
g) The pilot must ensure that all reasonable efforts are made to inform the police control room of his intention to land at an unsecured site. This may be done through his own operational controlling agency. Unless locally required, no approval is required to carry out the landing.
I see the good intent of your post 135, but after Bryn's editorial, what makes you think 'they' will start listening to 'us' now?
'A few pointers' that sounds very similar to 'a little knowledge is dangerous'!
However, I'm sure all the relevant issues have been discussed between JP, The Fire & Rescue Services and the CAA, with all relevant exemptions sought.
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To quote Hughes 500 - "Question for you, your daughter is in an RTA, The Brigade has no cutting tools the only way is getting them is Mr Paxton's helicopter so presumably you would say NO".
Sorry, but every frontline fire engine, (not 'specials' like turntable ladders), carries cutting gear, so your imaginary scenario just would not happen. What do you think we carry in all those lockers? As I have stated previously, Avon did a carefully arranged trial, carefully arranged as in the aircraft could land right next to the incident. Because that happens ALL the time, people who have RTC's always have them in places you can land a helicopter right next to. Oh, no they don't. BUT, you CAN get a fire engine close to them, and, if they are off the beaten track, we have 4x4's to carry equipment. Or we can call on the services of a professional organisation, like the RAF, for example. You can read my previous post for other exapmles about why the fire service doesn't need helicopters. You need to be supporting frontline fire services, NOT vanity projects. It's us that'll save you in the event of a crash, not Stringfellow Hawke........
Sorry, but every frontline fire engine, (not 'specials' like turntable ladders), carries cutting gear, so your imaginary scenario just would not happen. What do you think we carry in all those lockers? As I have stated previously, Avon did a carefully arranged trial, carefully arranged as in the aircraft could land right next to the incident. Because that happens ALL the time, people who have RTC's always have them in places you can land a helicopter right next to. Oh, no they don't. BUT, you CAN get a fire engine close to them, and, if they are off the beaten track, we have 4x4's to carry equipment. Or we can call on the services of a professional organisation, like the RAF, for example. You can read my previous post for other exapmles about why the fire service doesn't need helicopters. You need to be supporting frontline fire services, NOT vanity projects. It's us that'll save you in the event of a crash, not Stringfellow Hawke........
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BUT, you CAN get a fire engine close to them, and, if they are off the beaten track, we have 4x4's to carry equipment.
SilsoeSid, I think One35 was being kind with his post about showing the complexities of flying an emergency services helicopter. But as you have reminded all the wannabees - it is far from simple. Don't hold your breath guys, these wannabees mean business!
ChopJock - your responses are beyond cretinous. Surely you are doing this for a laugh / to get a response? Another mind numbing post from what I can only assume is a stooge. Who are you really???
PaNews - I didn't "out" you, the previous post put your name up in neon lights!!
A reminder - you are the owner and editor of PANews: police aviation news. Why is there a yellow SeaKing on your front page?
Secondly - your getting soft in your old age. As an ex cop yourself, how would you feel if a do-gooder decided he/she could form their own police force without training or experience, because they could afford to do it
? They could buy a fleet of cars and respond on certain occasions to 'assist' with a car pursuit or bank robbery perhaps? It's not about their talent (they might hire ex rallye drivers!), it's not about their equipment. It's the fact they genuinely think they can do this without any research.
ChopJock - your responses are beyond cretinous. Surely you are doing this for a laugh / to get a response? Another mind numbing post from what I can only assume is a stooge. Who are you really???
PaNews - I didn't "out" you, the previous post put your name up in neon lights!!
A reminder - you are the owner and editor of PANews: police aviation news. Why is there a yellow SeaKing on your front page?
Secondly - your getting soft in your old age. As an ex cop yourself, how would you feel if a do-gooder decided he/she could form their own police force without training or experience, because they could afford to do it
? They could buy a fleet of cars and respond on certain occasions to 'assist' with a car pursuit or bank robbery perhaps? It's not about their talent (they might hire ex rallye drivers!), it's not about their equipment. It's the fact they genuinely think they can do this without any research.
deja vu just isn't what it used to be!
This whole debate reminds me of my first time as a member (RAF rep) on the North Wales Mountain Rescue Committee (NWMRC). There were some comfortably off (NB not rich!) chaps in the Clwyd area who did a bit of skiing together and had the odd parachute jump under their belts too. Because one winter a few cars got snowed in crossing the moors, nothing serious, no-one died, this 'band of brothers' applied to the MRC for membership, their scenario being that if this happened again they could be air dropped, with skis, by RAF Hercules in order to render assistance (I presume to tuck in blankets, refill flasks, that sort of thing). Of course they would require an officially approved RESCUE badge for their jump suits! Naturally, there was much mirth and they were turned down by the guys with beards and big boots.
Fast forward fifteen or so years and I was once again on the NWMRC. The paraski group had revised its plans ie. no skis or parachutes and were applying for membership once again, this time under a new name and with more modest modus operandi. The stumbling block now, which occupied the hour before I nodded off, the design of the badge!
Fast forward fifteen or so years and I was once again on the NWMRC. The paraski group had revised its plans ie. no skis or parachutes and were applying for membership once again, this time under a new name and with more modest modus operandi. The stumbling block now, which occupied the hour before I nodded off, the design of the badge!
Last edited by Al-bert; 16th Jan 2013 at 14:59.
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Quote chopjock - "Does that include narrow country lanes that are blocked by traffic, floods, snow and ice etc?"
I'll humour you. If one end is blocked by traffic, we will send another truck the other way, or, go around ourselves. Far quicker than landing ahalf a mile away and ferrying the equipment needed to the incident. I have never in twenty years, NOT been able to reach an RTC with a normal front-line fire engine, rural areas and urban, let alone a 4x4, (which, incidently, are rather good at moving through floods, snow and ice etc). Your average motorist generally moves out of the way when they hear our sirens and see our blue lights. Even on narrow country lanes. Parking on narrow streets on the other hand IS a problem, but, I don't think even Mr Paxton is going to help there. Unless he intends to let us abseil out of his aircraft ala 'Who Dares Wins'?
I'll humour you. If one end is blocked by traffic, we will send another truck the other way, or, go around ourselves. Far quicker than landing ahalf a mile away and ferrying the equipment needed to the incident. I have never in twenty years, NOT been able to reach an RTC with a normal front-line fire engine, rural areas and urban, let alone a 4x4, (which, incidently, are rather good at moving through floods, snow and ice etc). Your average motorist generally moves out of the way when they hear our sirens and see our blue lights. Even on narrow country lanes. Parking on narrow streets on the other hand IS a problem, but, I don't think even Mr Paxton is going to help there. Unless he intends to let us abseil out of his aircraft ala 'Who Dares Wins'?
Last edited by thedandyfireman; 16th Jan 2013 at 12:55.
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Sid, I can't disagree with your post but TC got my drift. Although, on-line line training for wannabe emergency services pilots....? There might be a gap in the market here! 
PANews, regarding your 'outing' comment. In post #308 I linked to your editorial that you'd already published and signed. The only connection with your PPRuNe handle was made by yourself when you responded a couple of posts later. My apologies if I've missed something but it does appear to be a bit of an own-goal there, old boy.
Anyway...tea to be drunk. Fly safe all.
135
PANews, regarding your 'outing' comment. In post #308 I linked to your editorial that you'd already published and signed. The only connection with your PPRuNe handle was made by yourself when you responded a couple of posts later. My apologies if I've missed something but it does appear to be a bit of an own-goal there, old boy.
Anyway...tea to be drunk. Fly safe all.
135
Last edited by One35; 16th Jan 2013 at 14:00. Reason: Typo
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Bryn, how can you possibly accuse anyone of 'outing' you when you say;
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/190...tml#post196014
Guilty. I was selling 'me' and digging for stories for the next few issues..... Retired policeman does not have to mean brain dead and PAN is the whiz in my life. Nearly everything I write has my name on it because I am not ashamed of it [even when found wrong] and I project that attitude onto PPRuNe. That is why my handle is very transparent. Note also that PACRotors has a similar policy. I doubt we are the only 'press' around PPRuNe.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
PANews
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/746...tml#post708791
I notified Sky Watch of the PPRuNe interest in their operation and pasted some of the earlier text over. Thiis was received this morning.
Dear Bryn ... thanks for the info.
Dear Bryn ... thanks for the info.
Lighten up lads, we all know who I am for all the reasons quoted and you seem to have taken my comment far too seriously [again]!
Bit of a 'gulp' that someone looked back to 1999 for that quote...... s*** was I alive then? Obviously bored sitting in a crew room waiting to fly on a mission that you will be much too late for.
Yes, whoever you all are, please lighten up!
Bit of a 'gulp' that someone looked back to 1999 for that quote...... s*** was I alive then? Obviously bored sitting in a crew room waiting to fly on a mission that you will be much too late for.
Yes, whoever you all are, please lighten up!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Lightening up as requested 
;
PANews
Correct.
Because if you were, you'd understand why!
I believe this is closet to your location;
LONDON LUTON EGGW 162258Z 1700/1724 35003KT CAVOK BECMG 1700/1703 0300 FZFG BKN001 PROB30 TEMPO 1703/1710 1500 BR SCT002 BECMG 1710/1713 6000 NSW FEW003 BECMG 1716/1719 2000 BR PROB30 TEMPO 1719/1722 0300 FZFG BKN001 BECMG 1722/1724 13010KT 8000 NSW BKN010 :
;PANews
Obviously bored sitting in a crew room waiting to fly ...
"after all mine is an opinion of a non-pilot so worth less perhaps in this forum".
I believe this is closet to your location;
LONDON LUTON EGGW 162258Z 1700/1724 35003KT CAVOK BECMG 1700/1703 0300 FZFG BKN001 PROB30 TEMPO 1703/1710 1500 BR SCT002 BECMG 1710/1713 6000 NSW FEW003 BECMG 1716/1719 2000 BR PROB30 TEMPO 1719/1722 0300 FZFG BKN001 BECMG 1722/1724 13010KT 8000 NSW BKN010 :
Dandyfireman
I sit on the fence between the 2 sides here, in one sense what he is doing is wrong in another what he is doing is positive. The carrying of special cutting gear ( US style battery kit so highly portable) request came from The Fire Brigade who have been talking to him and perhaps trialling it. So dont get on your high horse. Unlike some on this site who assume he is a prat because of what he is looking at doing I have actually asked the horses mouth as to what is going on. Now why would that Brigade ask for that ? I dont know you would be the expert, perhaps like battery powered tools you can take them some distance from either hydraulic or electrical power. As for 4 wheel drive working rather well you obviously have no experience of them, before you go off on one I live in the middle of a National Park when it is ice and snow they are only marginally better than 2 wheel drive unless fitted with snow tyres. Off road on wet grass /mud they are crap again unless fitted with proper off road tyres.If you dont believe me come to one of my wet fields, less than 10 degree slope no mud just saturated grass and see how far you get uphill in your brigades 4 wheel drive with 70/30 tyres on, I will tell you now less than 100 m when i will have to come and tow you out with a tractor. To quote Devon and Somerset brigades view of the floods 4 wheel drives are not amphibious Again like all things they have to be used in the correct way and yes trained to use the kit. If that all goes ahead although I would still have reservations it might be workable. PM me if you would like to come down with a 4 wheel drive I am about 1.5 hours drive away
I sit on the fence between the 2 sides here, in one sense what he is doing is wrong in another what he is doing is positive. The carrying of special cutting gear ( US style battery kit so highly portable) request came from The Fire Brigade who have been talking to him and perhaps trialling it. So dont get on your high horse. Unlike some on this site who assume he is a prat because of what he is looking at doing I have actually asked the horses mouth as to what is going on. Now why would that Brigade ask for that ? I dont know you would be the expert, perhaps like battery powered tools you can take them some distance from either hydraulic or electrical power. As for 4 wheel drive working rather well you obviously have no experience of them, before you go off on one I live in the middle of a National Park when it is ice and snow they are only marginally better than 2 wheel drive unless fitted with snow tyres. Off road on wet grass /mud they are crap again unless fitted with proper off road tyres.If you dont believe me come to one of my wet fields, less than 10 degree slope no mud just saturated grass and see how far you get uphill in your brigades 4 wheel drive with 70/30 tyres on, I will tell you now less than 100 m when i will have to come and tow you out with a tractor. To quote Devon and Somerset brigades view of the floods 4 wheel drives are not amphibious Again like all things they have to be used in the correct way and yes trained to use the kit. If that all goes ahead although I would still have reservations it might be workable. PM me if you would like to come down with a 4 wheel drive I am about 1.5 hours drive away
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Hughes500, I can only assume that the brigade are asking him to do what he is doing because he is offering to do it for free, and the chief can use it to make cuts to frontline services, as our budgets are being cut. There is an agenda somewhere. I explained earlier that, yes, the kit may be light and portable, but, you still need the blokes to use it. I believe he will only be carrying two firemen, so, with the best will in the world, you CAN cut someone out of a wreck with two of you, but you can kiss goodbye to the 'Golden Hour'. It isn't just a case of just cutting the roof off, as some people think. There is stabilisation, glass management, trauma care and BLS, (if we arrive before the ambo's), constant checking of stabilisation, etc, etc, etc. That is just not possible with two of you. There is a reason we arrive mob-handed! He also has to pick the crew up? That will take time. We pride ourselves on our speed of response, and, in the time it takes him to do that, the local crew would be there 'Getting to work'. Incidently, my brigade, (Avon), has dismissed the idea of a helicopter, if I understand what the chief has said correctly. London did the same, so, there must be a common denominator. Anyway, the only times we have ever used a helicopter in my twenty years service, the police let us use theirs, and the RAF flew in a SeaKing, which during a conversation with the crew, they said they're always happy to help us out. Regards to 4x4's, the ones we have are fitted with off-road tyres, and all us EFADS drivers with a 4x4 on station have been on a course to drive them. You're correct, they aren't amphibious, but we also have boats. One permanently docked at Bristol docks and a RIB at Bath and Bedminster fire stations that can be towed anywhere. I hope my explanation helps? Nice idea and offer, and I don't know the man, so I can't comment on what he's like as a person, but, I really think that if he is doing this for altruistic reasons, then he should be looking at donating the money to his local air ambulance or, maybe patient transfer in his aircraft? (Don't shoot me down in flames if that's a daft suggestion!). Thanks for your kind offer of coming down in the 4x4, (I drive an old Toyota 4x4 - with off-road tyres), but, I'd rather have a go in your helicopter! They've fascinated me since I was a kid, and I'm a frustrated helicopter pilot! Never lucky enough to join the RAF and Navy, and my Mum would'nt let me join the Army Air Corps! So, if you ever need a passenger! Actually, that goes for any of you near the Bristol area - if you ever need a passenger, PM me. You let me have a ride in your helicopter, I'll show you and your kids around the fire station. Can't say fairer than that!!
!!
Last edited by thedandyfireman; 17th Jan 2013 at 10:27.
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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that any police helicopter, which may already be called to a serious RTA, can also land and transfer people and equipment.
In UK, all police ASU aircraft are twin engined, so they can comply with Class A performance requirements, have exemptions for Rule 5 etc and the crews are already very well trained and experienced.
In UK, all police ASU aircraft are twin engined, so they can comply with Class A performance requirements, have exemptions for Rule 5 etc and the crews are already very well trained and experienced.
Dandy
You will always be welcome if you are ever passing in Devon drop me a PM, quite often in the Bristol area. Couldnt agree more about a hidden agenda, interestingly JP phoned me last night for some advice not sure on what as i was out on my mountain bike so he is phoning today. Will try and get some more info for you. I realise that you can only take a few guys in the machine. I have managed to get 3 guys in mine when fighting Dartmoor fires, they were mighty glad to get a lift to the fire rather than walking the 2 miles in their kit. Mind you did 5 shuttles dropping them off at different points so even though it is a " toy" to some it is better than nothing ! Even more pleased at the end of 6 hours beating, with me dropping water everywhere, for the lift back !
You will always be welcome if you are ever passing in Devon drop me a PM, quite often in the Bristol area. Couldnt agree more about a hidden agenda, interestingly JP phoned me last night for some advice not sure on what as i was out on my mountain bike so he is phoning today. Will try and get some more info for you. I realise that you can only take a few guys in the machine. I have managed to get 3 guys in mine when fighting Dartmoor fires, they were mighty glad to get a lift to the fire rather than walking the 2 miles in their kit. Mind you did 5 shuttles dropping them off at different points so even though it is a " toy" to some it is better than nothing ! Even more pleased at the end of 6 hours beating, with me dropping water everywhere, for the lift back !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
When JP and his helicopter, kit and pax arrive at the incident, what happens when that inevitable question is asked...."Once we get them out, can you take them to the hospital?"