UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Good point Sulley,
I guess the 120 degree/20 minute 'arc of nothingness' means a lot to some!
Whereas the 360 degree/20minute 'arc of every built up area in the Midlands', means very little!
I guess the 120 degree/20 minute 'arc of nothingness' means a lot to some!
Whereas the 360 degree/20minute 'arc of every built up area in the Midlands', means very little!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The 20 minute rings!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Yet another day where the weather shows how silly a certain part of 'the plan' is.
I know of a plan that can be implemented tomorrow that saves money in both the short and long terms, while promoting a safer and more operationally effective service for the whole of the Midlands region of the UK.
I know of a plan that can be implemented tomorrow that saves money in both the short and long terms, while promoting a safer and more operationally effective service for the whole of the Midlands region of the UK.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Of course, add in the 20 minute circles for other units...
...and the people around Long Mynd are kept happy, shame about the people in Aberystwyth though!
...and the people around Long Mynd are kept happy, shame about the people in Aberystwyth though!
...........shame about the people in Aberystwyth.....
just one of so many issues though. On the face of it, if the Dyfed 109 is to go, it would seem more sensible to shift the S&EW aircraft from St Athan to that brand spanking new base to the west.... though that might upset them at St Athan of course as they have a perfectly serviceable base and well placed in the current scene... Rumour has it that the Dyfed base is a tight fit for an A109E so it might not be too friendly anyway. I remember the original base was a tight fit for the Bell 206... and caused problems when the went to the AS355 so it may be spurious humour.
Trying to be dispassionate, if there is to be cover for people in Aberystwyth that move west might just help. Still they only get cover in daylight from their super duper SPIFR machine so perhaps they have already decided an agenda ..... 'air support, what is air support' ....
There are other potential issues of course surrounding the S&EW 135 being uniquely a leased machine.
just one of so many issues though. On the face of it, if the Dyfed 109 is to go, it would seem more sensible to shift the S&EW aircraft from St Athan to that brand spanking new base to the west.... though that might upset them at St Athan of course as they have a perfectly serviceable base and well placed in the current scene... Rumour has it that the Dyfed base is a tight fit for an A109E so it might not be too friendly anyway. I remember the original base was a tight fit for the Bell 206... and caused problems when the went to the AS355 so it may be spurious humour.
Trying to be dispassionate, if there is to be cover for people in Aberystwyth that move west might just help. Still they only get cover in daylight from their super duper SPIFR machine so perhaps they have already decided an agenda ..... 'air support, what is air support' ....
There are other potential issues of course surrounding the S&EW 135 being uniquely a leased machine.
Air Service proposal faces a taxing issue.....
"Police Forces individually do not pay VAT. There is potential that national agency would have to pay VAT, which would add 20% to the cost of air support, which would take away all the savings we are achieving. I think we can overcome that but if we cannot we would have to look at a lead force model to avoid the VAT hit".
CC Alex Marshall. Jane's Police Review. 3rd Dec 2010
Don't shoot the messenger.................
CC Alex Marshall. Jane's Police Review. 3rd Dec 2010
Don't shoot the messenger.................
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20 min (always was 15 min so another slight of hand) from your base is all well and good, what if you are not in the North West with all that overlapping cover, like the South East? It could be 40 min (Cromer to Bedford) and a couple of refuels to get to a job and be of some use. Great service....NOT!
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As the response time has extended to the magic number of 20 minutes and some units are going to be flying back and forth from one force to another we need to look at education......
The guys on the ground need to know a number of things, what to do when they call for us, how soon to call us, what a containment is, is a dog coming, you know the usual 100 questions we ask enroute.....
Who is going to do this? At my unit we get the probationers for 4 hours and tell them all of this, then the dog section come to the unit and tell them what they need to know. Those who do the job know how effective Air Support and a dog are together.
And that the point we are Air 'SUPPORT', there to support the guys on the ground.
We have the Police National Search Centre (PNSC), for POLSA, if youre not a copper then these are the guys you see on the news on their hands and knees after a murder or explosion looking for evidence. Everything new goes through PNSC all the latest techniques and incidents, they are the hub. The equivalent roles of UEO Chief Pilot and Training officer are seconded there and disseminate new skills techniques etc to the different Forces.
We need a national Hub for information and education. We all do the same job but we all have different ways of doing it. Those of you who are job or pilots have a pnn email address for the NPIA ASU website but looking at it, we are not sharing information, techniques or procedures.
If WE are going to be covering an area with an extended response time then in order to support the guys on the ground, they and the control room guys need to be educated. We need to share experiences and ideas to provide the best service we can.
As we know from these cuts, some of us posting here may be on the ground waiting for an aircraft in 24 months!
This is the one area we do let ourselves down, hopefully going national, the vast knowledge out there, that is evident on here will begin to flow !
The guys on the ground need to know a number of things, what to do when they call for us, how soon to call us, what a containment is, is a dog coming, you know the usual 100 questions we ask enroute.....
Who is going to do this? At my unit we get the probationers for 4 hours and tell them all of this, then the dog section come to the unit and tell them what they need to know. Those who do the job know how effective Air Support and a dog are together.
And that the point we are Air 'SUPPORT', there to support the guys on the ground.
We have the Police National Search Centre (PNSC), for POLSA, if youre not a copper then these are the guys you see on the news on their hands and knees after a murder or explosion looking for evidence. Everything new goes through PNSC all the latest techniques and incidents, they are the hub. The equivalent roles of UEO Chief Pilot and Training officer are seconded there and disseminate new skills techniques etc to the different Forces.
We need a national Hub for information and education. We all do the same job but we all have different ways of doing it. Those of you who are job or pilots have a pnn email address for the NPIA ASU website but looking at it, we are not sharing information, techniques or procedures.
If WE are going to be covering an area with an extended response time then in order to support the guys on the ground, they and the control room guys need to be educated. We need to share experiences and ideas to provide the best service we can.
As we know from these cuts, some of us posting here may be on the ground waiting for an aircraft in 24 months!
This is the one area we do let ourselves down, hopefully going national, the vast knowledge out there, that is evident on here will begin to flow !
Bolkow,
That is what I was referring to as being further west and of greater use to west Wales than St Athan.
Has anyone noticed the developments with Cambridgeshire and Magpas.... the Agusta 109 HEMS being adopted?
It seems that the EMS world is making its own arrangements to fill the void left by the NPAS 'Marshall Plan'
That is what I was referring to as being further west and of greater use to west Wales than St Athan.
Has anyone noticed the developments with Cambridgeshire and Magpas.... the Agusta 109 HEMS being adopted?
It seems that the EMS world is making its own arrangements to fill the void left by the NPAS 'Marshall Plan'
There are no limits
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Silsoe Sid wrote:
Be careful what you wish for or you might be looking for a job!
I know of a plan that can be implemented tomorrow that saves money in both the short and long terms, while promoting a safer and more operationally effective service for the whole of the Midlands region of the UK.
15 or 20 minutes!
Guy's dont get hung up about 15 or 20 minutes. The truth of the matter is what ever way you cut it the response has to be Bl+++y quick!
What most people don't seem to understand is that the clock starts running the moment the incident starts, NOT from when the Helicopter was requested! So if it takes 10 minutes to communicate the task to the unit, then you have lost at least half or even two thirds of that valuable time.
The usefulness of Police Air Support has always been dependant on its speed of arrival on scene. That is precisely why most major cities have until now had their own dedicated air support. - Because that is where the need is greatest. Range rings are at best an indication to the casual and uninvolved bystander, how far the aircraft can travel in 20 minutes. It should never be confused with its "effective " range which is much shorter.
The promotors of this woolly thinking suggest that the service will be better because there will always be an aircraft on call in the region. They conveniently forget to say what good it will be when it gets to you, when the incident started well over an hour ago and in any event the aircraft now needs refueling before it can do anything.
I am told that the whole original concept of air support has changed. The quick curtailment of vehicle pursuit in order to prevent danger to innocent members of the public is no longer a priority. Street crimes such as muggings and domestic burglaries are now unimportant. The purpose of Air Support is now to be top cover for set pieces such as marches, major events and other pre planned incidents. Plus of course counter terrorism. I fully support the latter but the others?
Air support has always been just that, support for the bobby on the beat. It must be as easy to call as the dog or scenes of crime. Thus it has always been, but tomorrow?
Tigerfish
What most people don't seem to understand is that the clock starts running the moment the incident starts, NOT from when the Helicopter was requested! So if it takes 10 minutes to communicate the task to the unit, then you have lost at least half or even two thirds of that valuable time.
The usefulness of Police Air Support has always been dependant on its speed of arrival on scene. That is precisely why most major cities have until now had their own dedicated air support. - Because that is where the need is greatest. Range rings are at best an indication to the casual and uninvolved bystander, how far the aircraft can travel in 20 minutes. It should never be confused with its "effective " range which is much shorter.
The promotors of this woolly thinking suggest that the service will be better because there will always be an aircraft on call in the region. They conveniently forget to say what good it will be when it gets to you, when the incident started well over an hour ago and in any event the aircraft now needs refueling before it can do anything.
I am told that the whole original concept of air support has changed. The quick curtailment of vehicle pursuit in order to prevent danger to innocent members of the public is no longer a priority. Street crimes such as muggings and domestic burglaries are now unimportant. The purpose of Air Support is now to be top cover for set pieces such as marches, major events and other pre planned incidents. Plus of course counter terrorism. I fully support the latter but the others?
Air support has always been just that, support for the bobby on the beat. It must be as easy to call as the dog or scenes of crime. Thus it has always been, but tomorrow?
Tigerfish
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Can you tell us what criteria you used for the 20 minutes, eg time for start up, climb out, what cruise speed?
Add 2 mins for start; a couple or 5 for the incident to have filtered through to the unit; possibly a couple more for the agrieved to have picked up the 'phone - and the incident's 30 mins old by the time you arrive at the edge of the circle!
A walking moving target after 20 mins generates a 3 sq mile circle, after 30 it's up to 7 sq miles! And as for vehicles after that time . . . don't get me started!
As Tigerfish says, it's not the size of the circle that counts, it's how fast you get to the incident. The proof of the pudding will be found in the communications policy & permissions (as already discussed), and allowing direct comms with the ASU nearest the "requester" - any delay through a central, busy, prioritising, geographically unfamilar, control room will just make things worse.
Chief Bottle Washer
Looking at the maps, SS shows approx 50 mile circles (= 44nm), so a good 20 mins flying @ 120-130kts.
Add 2 mins for start; a couple or 5 for the incident to have filtered through to the unit; possibly a couple more for the agrieved to have picked up the 'phone - and the incident's 30 mins old by the time you arrive at the edge of the circle!
Add 2 mins for start; a couple or 5 for the incident to have filtered through to the unit; possibly a couple more for the agrieved to have picked up the 'phone - and the incident's 30 mins old by the time you arrive at the edge of the circle!
That was my point: 20 minutes at 132 knots = 44nm, with no allowance for walking out/starting/climb out which would reduce the radius to ~15 minutes at cruise speed, eg 33nm. SS may be selling himself short on his workings?
(Disregarding the delay in receiving the call in the first place: that's a given!)
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The point about the 20 min v 15 min is that they lied when they said nothing had changed and the service would remain as is....it did change from 15 min to 20 min. This just shows the thin end of the wedge and the arrogance of those trying to put NPAS in place. They should just be honest with us and the general population.
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Sid if you look back at your previous posts then it looks like you don't want to co locate the two mids aircraft in the same location because of response times. But NPAS don't seem that bothered about that, So if you move them both to point B then you loose nothing as the whole of the operating area can be covered in less than 20 mins.
Then if you add the north and east mids it actually paints quite an interesting picture and dare I say it you could loose one from the centre!!!!!
Then if you add the north and east mids it actually paints quite an interesting picture and dare I say it you could loose one from the centre!!!!!